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I am an atheist at heart


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#61 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:55 AM

Everyone on here is an atheist of some sort. If you dont believe in Zeus or Apollo then your an atheist. Did you guys know that the creation was attributed to hundreds of Gods throughout history?

Using God as a way to explain your existence is not a very smart approach because you play with your own mind. If you usescientific approach then you can observe life and find out exactly how it all happened.

I now alot of things in this world that God has no influence on. He is totally useless in those respects because he doesnt do anything that nature doesnt take care of itself.

Laws of physics is a Good one. Some say God tweeked this world into constants but I see that they are not laws anymore than they just happen because thats how things work.

Gravity for instance happens between all masses and all matter because of density. God didnt create Gravity its just there.

v/r
Nick

Edited by Nickman, 10 December 2008 - 08:56 AM.

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#62 composer

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:07 AM

Don't scientists use their mind?

#63 R2D2

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:21 AM

Nickman,

Why does God have to be directly observable, measurable and felt in every experience on the earth? Why does He have to be explicitly involved in everything that He has made? For example when a mother gives birth to a baby, the baby's body breathes on its own and the heart beats just fine without her help. The mother doesn't need to make the baby's body work as an organism. Just wondering why you are coming from that angle.

I understand from a scientific point of view (proving/disproving a hypothesis) that you can't prove the existence of God in that way. But is He asking for us to evidence Him in such a way? It seems to me that the Bible takes a different approach and asks us to take things on faith. That's no good to a lot of people today who want explicit and unrefutable proof of everything before they believe it. We've become a very visual society in that if we can't see or measure something, it's no good to us.
"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

#64 ChickenSoup

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:34 AM

We have to love God before and as well as our neighbour.


Yahweh demands love. What kind of love is that? I dont demand my children to love me before I take care of them and give them all I have, shower them with blessings and never ask for anything. Except for them to clean their rooms and chew with their mouths closed.

I say Jesus had a better idea of love than Yahweh.

v/r
Nick


Nick, what makes you think that God 'demands' love. God is our Father and I'm sure he has the same ideas about love as you do about your children.

#65 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:07 AM

Why does He have to be explicitly involved in everything that He has made?



The Bible portrays him that way. He is in the clouds he is here and there working and making all things happen. I always believed that God created and then he had to have just left everything to work on its own. Now I realize I was biding more time until I actually found out that the old guy isnt even there because he has no other place other than the creation.

But is He asking for us to evidence Him in such a way?



I believe if there was a God that he would look down here with pride upon those that rationally work things out instead of just believing in something without evidence. Remember "No man has seen God at any time" Jesus never even saw God. Why has no man ever seen God? According to the bible, because of sin, which was the common theme for all Mesopotamian deities. I find it odd that no deity has ever been seen from any relgion except a few. The LDS faith says that Joseph Smith saw God but that goes against the bible teaching.

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#66 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:15 AM

CS wrote:

Nick, what makes you think that God 'demands' love. God is our Father and I'm sure he has the same ideas about love as you do about your children.


What are the ten commandments? A command is an edict that must be followed and makes an obligation to it or there will be consequences. Not much room for an alternative!

v/r
Nick

Edited by Nickman, 10 December 2008 - 10:24 AM.

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#67 Kay

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:32 AM

Nickman

Have you recently watched the Nova Program:

"The Bible's Buried Secrets"

Just a number of comments you have made seems that it may stem back to this program?
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#68 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:00 AM

Nickman

Have you recently watched the Nova Program:

"The Bible's Buried Secrets"

Just a number of comments you have made seems that it may stem back to this program?

Never heard of it but sounds interesting.
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#69 nsr

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:14 AM

The God of Israel came to life when his name was penned on papyrus.

Really? I suppose you can tell us who wrote it down?

Tangible would be something we can touch and observe to see if it actually does support God as a creator.

So you only believe in the existence of things you can touch and see?

Everyone on here is an atheist of some sort. If you dont believe in Zeus or Apollo then your an atheist. Did you guys know that the creation was attributed to hundreds of Gods throughout history?

Hmm, where have I heard that argument made before?

Using God as a way to explain your existence is not a very smart approach because you play with your own mind. If you usescientific approach then you can observe life and find out exactly how it all happened.

I'd rather trust in the word of God than the wisdom of man, thanks.

I now alot of things in this world that God has no influence on. He is totally useless in those respects because he doesnt do anything that nature doesnt take care of itself.

Laws of physics is a Good one. Some say God tweeked this world into constants but I see that they are not laws anymore than they just happen because thats how things work.

Gravity for instance happens between all masses and all matter because of density. God didnt create Gravity its just there.

"They just happen"? "Its [sic] just there"? Glad you've worked it out in such fine detail. Why do you think these things "just happen" and are "just there"?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#70 Jeppo

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:17 AM

Nickman

Have you recently watched the Nova Program:

"The Bible's Buried Secrets"

Just a number of comments you have made seems that it may stem back to this program?

Never heard of it but sounds interesting.


I managed to find it on youtube here: The Bible's Buried Secrets

I might give it a viewing as I'm laid out on the couch with a chest infection. :lock:

#71 Fortigurn

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:39 AM

CS wrote:

Nick, what makes you think that God 'demands' love. God is our Father and I'm sure he has the same ideas about love as you do about your children.


What are the ten commandments? A command is an edict that must be followed and makes an obligation to it or there will be consequences. Not much room for an alternative!

v/r
Nick


Can you supply any verses where someone was punished for not 'loving'? If so, where the consequences?

Edited by Fortigurn, 10 December 2008 - 11:42 AM.

Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#72 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:50 PM

CS wrote:

Nick, what makes you think that God 'demands' love. God is our Father and I'm sure he has the same ideas about love as you do about your children.


What are the ten commandments? A command is an edict that must be followed and makes an obligation to it or there will be consequences. Not much room for an alternative!

v/r
Nick


Can you supply any verses where someone was punished for not 'loving'? If so, where the consequences?

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Ezek 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Ezek 18:22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Ezek 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

In these verses alone God demands obedience or you will pay for it.
You are obligated to worship Yahweh because if you dont your end is not good, there is no middle ground.

v/r
Nick
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#73 Jeppo

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:07 PM

You are obligated to worship Yahweh because if you dont your end is not good, there is no middle ground.


But is worship being 'loving'? I've always thought of worship as being more akin to fearful fawning than an act of love.

#74 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:36 PM

You are obligated to worship Yahweh because if you dont your end is not good, there is no middle ground.


But is worship being 'loving'? I've always thought of worship as being more akin to fearful fawning than an act of love.


Either way it is an obligation for eternal life.
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#75 Jeppo

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:55 PM

Nick, has your change of heart happened suddenly or did it come to you over a period of time?

It seems you've abandoned the God idea because the Bible seems wrong about a number of things (science, history, archaeology etc..). This seems to be a chink in the armour of literalist sects - it's a bit of an 'all or nothing' approach to scripture. I can understand why that might have hurt your faith though.

#76 Nickman

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:46 PM

Nick, has your change of heart happened suddenly or did it come to you over a period of time?

It seems you've abandoned the God idea because the Bible seems wrong about a number of things (science, history, archaeology etc..). This seems to be a chink in the armour of literalist sects - it's a bit of an 'all or nothing' approach to scripture. I can understand why that might have hurt your faith though.


It took a while. I am not mad at Yahweh. I have never blamed God for anything in my life. I have corroborated the evidence of his existence and I dont see any in his favor. The bible was written by many hands and many stories contradict each other as well as modern day facts we have from archeological digs and dating methods. From biology to genetics. If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.

Did you get a chance to watch that show? I am part way through and it has alot of strong evidence that Yahweh was an imaginary God like all others used as a national symbol.

v/r
Nick

Edited by Nickman, 10 December 2008 - 08:46 PM.

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#77 Russell

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:53 PM

But Nickman, is there any other holy book that has been able to make risky predictions such as regarding the nation of Israel? And they came true. We can talk about when they were written, and the likelihood of fulfilment. If this line argument is sound then it puts your criticisms of the Bible in a different perspective.

#78 Corky

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:13 PM

But Nickman, is there any other holy book that has been able to make risky predictions such as regarding the nation of Israel? And they came true. We can talk about when they were written, and the likelihood of fulfilment. If this line argument is sound then it puts your criticisms of the Bible in a different perspective.


There is something else about the Bible too. It commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but isn't written where all men can even understand it (just a chosen few, evidently).

It also says that God wills that all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2:4) but hides that knowledge (I Cor. 2:7).

It would seem that if God is not willing that any should perish, that he would make himself and his truth known so that it would at least be possible.

#79 janice

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:25 PM

You are obligated to worship Yahweh because if you dont your end is not good, there is no middle ground.


But is worship being 'loving'? I've always thought of worship as being more akin to fearful fawning than an act of love.


My father always was keen on emphasising that worship is related to worth - recognizing that there is something admirable or worth while in our modern parlance - worship should be an acknowledgement of the importance of God in our lives and that he is special and different from human beings . It's alot more involved but that's a basic summary.

#80 Acomtha

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 11:02 PM

I am posting this to tell all that I dont believe that Yahweh is a god that truly exists.

I know my bible more than most people here because I study and alot of people can verify. I have found that science truly tells the truth.

The bible is outdated and completely out of sync with modern technology.

People in the OT and NT did not have a clue about the things we know right now.

They attributed the rain, lightning, thunder, clouds, earthquakes, evil, disease, pestilence, good, famine, death, and many other topics to God. I know very well that God is not behind any of these.

I know that my CD brethren (which have the true Christian faith) (even though I dont believe it is absolute truth) may be upset but I cannot support the bible as truth because it does not hold up under scrutiny any longer as I have said that it does previously in many posts.

I still understand the true message that the bible offers and will still try and to lead people to that truth, but after that they should be able to see that it is not an infallible document and is just like the rest of the so-called god inspired works from Mesopotamia to Egypt, Sumer, and Modern day Christianity.

I will now try and prove the Bible to be errant in my posts.

I truthfully enjoy everyones responses to threads I have made and will still continue upon the same line of reasoning, because it is the truth that is written in the bible (but not the absolute truth that science provides). The problem is, it is not the complete truth.

I truly love everyone I have come to know on this forum because I believe in Love (not because I am compelled to). You hominids out there are great. We learn alot from each other. I look forward to learning more.

v/r
Nick


Hi Nick,

I'm going to respond to this before reading any other responses so as not to be influenced by what they say, so if anyone else has said something somewhat the as I'm about to say, this is why.

Why it is that some will become an atheist simply because they no longer believe that the bible is infallible? Is God's existence dependent upon a book, so that if you no longer believe in that book, you can't believe in God either?

There is no reason that I can see to not believe in God simply because one no longer believes in what is said in a holy book. God's existence isn't dependent upon a book, he exists, he is for real whether we have a book or not, whether he inspired writers or not, whether we believe in the bible or not.

The bible tells us about God and his son, salvation, that is what it is for, but not believing in what is said doesn't mean that God can't exist. He does.

Hopefully, I'm clear on what I'm saying. Now I'll read what everyone else has said. :)

Acomtha :rose:
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#81 Jeppo

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 12:02 AM

If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.


This is pretty much the way I see it too. There's nothing in the Bible that isn't a product of its time. I can't begin to imagine what a book written by an omniscient deity would really look like, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be full of trivial barbarism about which enemies to kill, how to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc..

Did you get a chance to watch that show? I am part way through and it has alot of strong evidence that Yahweh was an imaginary God like all others used as a national symbol.


Yes I'm about halfway through. It's an interesting program!

#82 Jeppo

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 12:13 AM

God's existence isn't dependent upon a book,


Yes that could be true, but when your whole conception of God is derived from a book that you no longer trust as a source of 'truth', then you've got problems. Where else does your knowledge of God come from?

#83 Rebel

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 12:36 AM

The bible was written by many hands and many stories contradict each other

Which stories Nick?

When one finds some Bible verses, which seem to contradict each other (and there are plenty of those), they are not actually pieces from different puzzles, it's the same puzzle, but the authors present 2 sides of the story, they see the event from different angles, they describe the same thing using different language, different style. It's like one side of the object is shadie and the other side is light, sunny. One side of the aplle can be green, and the other is red. We people sometimes don't see both sides. But it's there for us to see if we just look from a different angle. I believe that God would like us to see things from every angle like He sees them. I think when we see things from more than one angle our character becomes a tiny bit more like God's character, we understand a bit better what He tries to tell us, to teach us.

Edited by Rebel, 11 December 2008 - 12:37 AM.


#84 SteveT

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:08 AM

If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.


This is pretty much the way I see it too. There's nothing in the Bible that isn't a product of its time. I can't begin to imagine what a book written by an omniscient deity would really look like, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be full of trivial barbarism about which enemies to kill, how to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc..


So kind of what you're saying is that all that biblical "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav" is childish and beneath us?

#85 nsr

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:20 AM

If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.


This is pretty much the way I see it too. There's nothing in the Bible that isn't a product of its time. I can't begin to imagine what a book written by an omniscient deity would really look like, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be full of trivial barbarism about which enemies to kill, how to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc..

Why do you think that you (or mankind in general, if you like) know better than the teachings of the Bible? Man doesn't exactly have a very good track record in terms of running the world and maintaining societies with things like justice, peace, etc. For all man's supposed advances and achievements, we are still stuck with the same problems that we've never been able to solve.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#86 R2D2

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:32 AM

Why does He have to be explicitly involved in everything that He has made?



The Bible portrays him that way. He is in the clouds he is here and there working and making all things happen. I always believed that God created and then he had to have just left everything to work on its own. Now I realize I was biding more time until I actually found out that the old guy isnt even there because he has no other place other than the creation.



I think the verses about being in the clouds is being taken a bit too literally. Interestingly, I think God knows about how we humans really need visual representations - that's probably why making any kind of image or idol even as a representation of Him carried such a big penalty. Even when the children of Israel had actually seen miracles crossing the Red Sea, they still needed something concrete they could see and that was partly why idols were so attractive.

But is He asking for us to evidence Him in such a way?



I believe if there was a God that he would look down here with pride upon those that rationally work things out instead of just believing in something without evidence. Remember "No man has seen God at any time" Jesus never even saw God. Why has no man ever seen God? According to the bible, because of sin, which was the common theme for all Mesopotamian deities. I find it odd that no deity has ever been seen from any relgion except a few. The LDS faith says that Joseph Smith saw God but that goes against the bible teaching.


It seems to me that God doesn't fit in with how you feel a God should operate and that is put forward as a reason for non belief in His existence. I've noticed that many non believers operate in this way. "If there was a God, he'd......." He'd be like me and think like me, basically. I don't think this itself is proof, but more close to an emotional rejection of God.

Thanks for the discussion and engaging. I appreciate you have changed your mind and it's not an easy thing to believe in something you can't explicitly see or observe. I don't really know what to say as you have moved to a scientific way of evidencing God and non of us can provide results of experiments, take you to see God etc. The Bible says that Faith is the conviction of things not seen. To an atheist this would be an excuse but really, it's true. How can someone say they have faith in God if He had been absolutely proved to them? PS I say this as a person who has also had doubts at times too.

Edited by R2D2, 11 December 2008 - 01:34 AM.

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

#87 Rebel

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:36 AM

If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.


You reckon, Nick, that people who belive in the Bible as God's Word (at least some of the people) don't see genius in the stories??? Do you reckon we make it up just because we want to see it there?

Marks of human hands are there, that's for sure. The language changes through the centuries, the traditions change, the life conditions change. Do you mean you want to see something like Bible written by people who lived thousands years between them, but you want no change? You want all people who wrote the Bible to be the same, same character, same vocabulary, same intelligence? I just don't understand what you want God's word to be, how 'perfect' (the same) in your eyes you want it?

This is pretty much the way I see it too. There's nothing in the Bible that isn't a product of its time. I can't begin to imagine what a book written by an omniscient deity would really look like, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be full of trivial barbarism about which enemies to kill, how to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc..


Of course it's a product of it's time, Jeppo. Can you see past that though? I watched a great film last week, called "Patch Adams". The old scientist :rose: showed him 4 fingers and asked Patch "How many fingers do you see?" Patch said 4. But later he came to ask the man what's the answer. The old sientist said "Look beyond the fingers, look at me." And Patch saw 8 fingers. He learned to see beyond the obvious.

Call me crasy guys, but in every page I see God speaking to us. We see why God says in OT to kill enemies, why He says in OT "to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc.." We don't see that as junk. We see beyond it- why did He put it there for us to read? Not sure if you are interested what i think about God's reasons... I am not the best at explaining, but here's what I think-

God was teaching people of the time a certain principle.
God wants us to see which principle, because it is very much the same principle in our times.
Those stupid (as some people think of them) things and rules in OT which you call a product of time ARE stuffed with symbols for us to see. IF we look at the products of the time from a different angle, IF we see beyond them, we see God in everything in the Bible, in every word of it. Some places in the Bible are harder to see though, some are easier.

Did you get a chance to watch that show? I am part way through and it has alot of strong evidence that Yahweh was an imaginary God like all others used as a national symbol.


You guys might say that I am brain washed. Who and what do you let wash your brain? Some program? And do you think this program makers see beyond 4 fingers and look at the 'apple' not from one side only?

Edited by Rebel, 11 December 2008 - 01:37 AM.


#88 Corky

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 02:19 AM

If the bible was from a higher power that created us we would see some of his genius in the stories. Instead we see the marks of human hands and ideas common to the time in which they lived.


This is pretty much the way I see it too. There's nothing in the Bible that isn't a product of its time. I can't begin to imagine what a book written by an omniscient deity would really look like, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be full of trivial barbarism about which enemies to kill, how to avoid women on their period or the 'abomination' of eating shellfish etc..

Why do you think that you (or mankind in general, if you like) know better than the teachings of the Bible? Man doesn't exactly have a very good track record in terms of running the world and maintaining societies with things like justice, peace, etc. For all man's supposed advances and achievements, we are still stuck with the same problems that we've never been able to solve.


Uh, actually, if God does exist then that would be his track record, wouldn't it? It could be said that, in 6,000 years, God has never improved anything but man has. Man's condition is certainly better off today than when stone age man sat at the mouth of his cave or inside his tent made of animal skins and made arrowheads out of flint. God didn't even tell his chosen people to boil milk before drinking it on account of disease, it took Louis Pasteur to find that out.

#89 Rebel

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 03:41 AM

Uh, actually, if God does exist then that would be his track record, wouldn't it? It could be said that, in 6,000 years, God has never improved anything but man has. Man's condition is certainly better off today than when stone age man sat at the mouth of his cave or inside his tent made of animal skins and made arrowheads out of flint. God didn't even tell his chosen people to boil milk before drinking it on account of disease, it took Louis Pasteur to find that out.

I think it's a very wrong thing to say, Corky. You think you'd be (or Pasteur was) way more compassionate than our God, because you would have told people to boil milk?

Here's a joke for you then.
Scientist says to God "Look, we people are so clever, let's compete."
"Ok," said God.
"I too can create a man out of dust, like You did," said scientist, scooping some dust.
"Hey",- says God, "Get your own dust first."

#90 ChickenSoup

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 06:13 AM

CS wrote:

Nick, what makes you think that God 'demands' love. God is our Father and I'm sure he has the same ideas about love as you do about your children.


What are the ten commandments? A command is an edict that must be followed and makes an obligation to it or there will be consequences. Not much room for an alternative!

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Can you supply any verses where someone was punished for not 'loving'? If so, where the consequences?

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Ezek 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Ezek 18:22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Ezek 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

In these verses alone God demands obedience or you will pay for it.
You are obligated to worship Yahweh because if you dont your end is not good, there is no middle ground.

v/r
Nick


Yes, God demands OBEDIENCE...the same as you demanding obedience from your own children. Do you punish your children if they disobey you or do you allow them to do what ever they want even if you tell them otherwise? :rose:

I think you're missing the point of those scriptures. First of all the impression that I got from your other post that God demands love through fear and punishment. That couldn't be further from the truth and if that's your impression of how God operates, then it's no wonder you're an Athiest because it appears that you don't really know God at all :).




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