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Rodney wants to know who is the father of lies?


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#1 Nickman

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:38 PM

Rodney wrote:

who is the father of lies?"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

was this really the heart(mind) of man,,,,,,because adam had a heart(mind) that was perfect before he sinned...........this thing was a murder from the beginning.........adam was perfect in the beginning..........so it couldnt have been talking about mans heart...........because it wasnt a murder from the begining,and did adobe in the truth in the begining.

please dont use the lame excuse that satan didnt have a proper name so thats why he doesnt exist,all the angels are not called proper names in the bible,yet they exist.


The purpose of this thread is to answer "Who is the father of lies" for Rodney.
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#2 Nickman

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:07 AM

Lets first go over the verses one by one.

John 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

First lets look at the word devil and its definition from the original writings in Greek. Devil comes from Diabolos. Diabolos is a compound word. Dia=through and Bolos=to strike. Together they mean "to strike through". The proper definition in English is 1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely, a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer. So first the scripture is not translated with the best meaning for us to understand what is actually taking place. Thank God for Lexicons.

So to properly read the verse with its original meaning we can now do this. 44You belong to your father, the false accuser, and you want to carry out your father's desire.

So who is the false accuser. I believe it is the sinful nature. This is what Jesus addressed to the Pharisees later in the same chapter. Lets look at why I believe this is true.

Who was the first murderer? Cain was according to scripture. So is Cain the false accuser? No, I dont believe so because Cain has no more existence he is dead. What was in Cain that was so sinful? His nature was sinful. This ugly guy sin popped his head up in the very beginning in the serpent, in Eve, then Adam, and then Cain. What was the same about all these instances? They all followed their selfish desires and reasoning. So sin is not a person but it is a mentality or attitude. It is a way of life contrary to the righteousness of God.

This sinful nature is termed the devil or false accuser. Everyone has this sinful nature and those who obey allow it to be thier father. It is not a real being. The bible personifies sin into a character. The same is throughout the entire bible.

Lets see other instances of this same usage.


"Women in like manner must be serious, not devils, temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Timothy 3:11).

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature; that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil . . ." (Hebrews 2:14)

We in Hebrews 2:14 that Jesus destroyed the devil. It starts with saying that he was a flesh and blood human and then it tells us that he also had our sinful nature. Through his death he destroyed the devil in his life and therefore has showed us how we are to do the same. Notice it says the devil has the power of death. According to Paul sin has the power of death. We can then see that these words are used synonymously.

The verse below would have been a good place for the Apostle to tell us the truth about the devil being a real fallen angel. We see the opposite.
Romans 6: 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin holds the power of death and this comes from within the person. Not some fallen angel.

1 Corinthians 15
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No fallen angel here. We can only see that sin is the power of death and the power of sin is conscienceness from the law.

Furthermore Romans 8 confirms my belief that Jesus destroyed the devil or sinful flesh on the cross through his death.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but
according to the Spirit.


5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God.

You see the devil Jesus speaks of is the same one Paul and the other Apostles speak of which is our sinful nature. Jesus has shown us how to crucify our sinful nature with him and God has given him as an offering for our sin.

[b]Those that live according to the sinful flesh are controlled by thier father "sin". The father of lies, the murderer from the beginning.


If you read the entire chapter of John 8 you will see that the Pharisees are especially dropping accusations on Christ this is why he calls their father the false accuser.
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

We can see in just these few verses how the Pharisees slandered Jesus. The name was fitting wouldnt you say?

[b]Also demon arent real, just thought I would add that little fact.


v/r
Nick

Edited by Nickman, 05 November 2008 - 12:08 AM.

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:38 AM

. . . . I guess we will move on.........

next question who is the father of lies?"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

I believe this refers to Adam for many reasons.

1. Briefly regarding ' Why I believe Adam is the father of lies '

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? {Yea...: Heb. Yea, because, etc.} (Gen. 3: 1) KJV (My Bold)

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Gen. 3:2 - 3) KJS

#01 : - Composer responds: Here Eve advises the serpent of what she knew already, -

i.e. Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die .

If we compare what God told Adam (Gen. 2:16 - 17 KJS) with what Eve was aware (Gen. 3: 3) KJV, we see that the words - "neither shall ye touch it", have been added / embellished from the original warning given exclusively to Adam.

#DO NOT ALTER GOD'S WORD : The scriptures advise of the repercussions against those who "add to / alter" God's words. - Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 cf. Rev. 22:18-19 / Prov. 30:5 - 6) KJS

. . . and although we do not know for certain "who advised her" the preponderance of evidence indicates that it was Adam. For the Scriptures only inform us that God directly warned Adam. (Gen. 2:17) KJS (So as God did not warn Eve directly, but only Adam, the information Eve bore, would have come no doubt from Adam, her Husband).

The significant factor about the FIRST LIE therefore demonstrates that the lie of Adam was BEFORE that of the alleged lie of the Satan being allegedly "manipulating" the serpent (The Scriptures DO NOT legitimately support the concept that the Serpent was either manipulated by an external Supernatural fallen heavenly angel Satan "being" nor did the Serpent itself "lie" at all, in its estimation?) - (See My Ref: The Serpent (another article I wrote))

Therefore the the preponderance of evidence concludes that the actual "father of lies" (John 8:44) KJV is more likely Adam.


2. Regarding why Adam is also ' this devil spoken of ' - He (the devil) . . . .

A Devil is a false accuser.

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (Gen. 3:12) KJV

Adam falsely accused God of being responsible for his disobedience because God created Eve and without Eve Adam is claiming he wouldn't have disobeyed.


3. Regarding: . . . . was a murderer from the beginning,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {for that: or, in whom} (Rom. 5:12) KJV

Adam brought the curse of literal physical death on all of mankind because of his disobedience.

4. Regarding: and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

God told (forewarned) Adam that his disobedience would bring his death. (Gen. 2:17) KJV

So Adam had the Truth given to him but it was never ' in him ' because he refused to heed it and followed his own Free Will choice to disregard that Truth.

IF the Truth were truly in him, he would not have disobeyed, and so that Truth was never retained in him.


5. Regarding: When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"

Adam lied to Eve (See 1. above) and Adam used his Free Will to disobey God and instead follow his own ' Self Will '.

was this really the heart(mind) of man,,,,,,because adam had a heart(mind) that was perfect before he sinned...........this thing was a murder from the beginning.........adam was perfect in the beginning..........so it couldnt have been talking about mans heart...........because it wasnt a murder from the begining,and did adobe in the truth in the begining.

There are no Scriptures claiming Adam was ' morally perfect ' the best is a ' very good ' condition. (Gen. 1:31) KJV

Is anything that God makes ' perfect ' yes of course, a Rock is made perfectly to function as a Rock.

ALL God's creations are made to function perfectly as God designed them to be.

In that respect a Rock is no more Perfect than a man.

IF Adam & Eve had been made ' morally perfect ' they would never have disobeyed and instead have behaved ' perfectly ' i.e. without an error.

They did not behave obediently thus not morally perfectly.


please dont use the lame excuse that satan didnt have a proper name so thats why he doesnt exist,all the angels are not called proper names in the bible,yet they exist.

thanks Rod

Gabriel is a proper Name.

Michael is a proper name

Satan is not a proper name.

It is a Hebrew metaphor meaning an adversary. -

EMPHATIC Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear ALPHABETICAL APPENDIX pp. 915- 916 renders: SATAN, is a transferred Hebrew word, and is derived from the verb which means to lie in wait, to oppose, to be an adversary. Hence the noun means an adversary or opposer.

The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance - (p. 93) How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com


1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.


Thank you

Edited by composer, 05 November 2008 - 07:05 AM.


#4 RODNEY

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 05:47 AM

Lets first go over the verses one by one.

John 8:42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

First lets look at the word devil and its definition from the original writings in Greek. Devil comes from Diabolos. Diabolos is a compound word. Dia=through and Bolos=to strike. Together they mean "to strike through". The proper definition in English is 1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely, a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer. So first the scripture is not translated with the best meaning for us to understand what is actually taking place. Thank God for Lexicons.

So to properly read the verse with its original meaning we can now do this. 44You belong to your father, the false accuser, and you want to carry out your father's desire.

So who is the false accuser. I believe it is the sinful nature. This is what Jesus addressed to the Pharisees later in the same chapter. Lets look at why I believe this is true.

Who was the first murderer? Cain was according to scripture. So is Cain the false accuser? No, I dont believe so because Cain has no more existence he is dead. What was in Cain that was so sinful? His nature was sinful. This ugly guy sin popped his head up in the very beginning in the serpent, in Eve, then Adam, and then Cain. What was the same about all these instances? They all followed their selfish desires and reasoning. So sin is not a person but it is a mentality or attitude. It is a way of life contrary to the righteousness of God.

This sinful nature is termed the devil or false accuser. Everyone has this sinful nature and those who obey allow it to be thier father. It is not a real being. The bible personifies sin into a character. The same is throughout the entire bible.

Lets see other instances of this same usage.


"Women in like manner must be serious, not devils, temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Timothy 3:11).

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature; that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil . . ." (Hebrews 2:14)

We in Hebrews 2:14 that Jesus destroyed the devil. It starts with saying that he was a flesh and blood human and then it tells us that he also had our sinful nature. Through his death he destroyed the devil in his life and therefore has showed us how we are to do the same. Notice it says the devil has the power of death. According to Paul sin has the power of death. We can then see that these words are used synonymously.

The verse below would have been a good place for the Apostle to tell us the truth about the devil being a real fallen angel. We see the opposite.
Romans 6: 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin holds the power of death and this comes from within the person. Not some fallen angel.

1 Corinthians 15
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No fallen angel here. We can only see that sin is the power of death and the power of sin is conscienceness from the law.

Furthermore Romans 8 confirms my belief that Jesus destroyed the devil or sinful flesh on the cross through his death.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but
according to the Spirit.


5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God.

You see the devil Jesus speaks of is the same one Paul and the other Apostles speak of which is our sinful nature. Jesus has shown us how to crucify our sinful nature with him and God has given him as an offering for our sin.

[b]Those that live according to the sinful flesh are controlled by thier father "sin". The father of lies, the murderer from the beginning.


If you read the entire chapter of John 8 you will see that the Pharisees are especially dropping accusations on Christ this is why he calls their father the false accuser.
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

We can see in just these few verses how the Pharisees slandered Jesus. The name was fitting wouldnt you say?

[b]Also demon arent real, just thought I would add that little fact.


v/r
Nick

Nick:thanks for asking,vacation was great,went to vegas...........I think adam being the father of lies is off base since the serpent lied to eve first by telling her that she wouldnt die...........who is that serpent of old?rev 20:2 says:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

so is your mind going to be bound for a thousand years........please

job 2:1 says:Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

so in this passage the Lord is real,job is real............but satan isnt real.............that doesnt make since at all..........

matt25:41:“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

this doesnt sound like just your mind because those that have rejected christ are going to the same place satan is,...............there wouldnt have been a distingusted between satan and the accursed...........it would have been the same if satan was man mind.

thanks Rod



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Posted 06 November 2008 - 06:34 AM

Nick:......I think adam being the father of lies is off base since the serpent lied to eve first by telling her that she wouldnt die......

Nick didn't write that RODNEY, I Composer did.

If you go back and read again properly I explained in detail why Adam was the FIRST Liar and in fact I don't believe the Serpent Creature ' maliciously lied at all ' (another Thread perhaps) but regardless for now Adam was the FIRST Liar.

.....who is that serpent of old?rev 20:2 says:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

so is your mind going to be bound for a thousand years........please

The mind of carnal flesh yes indeed. When the Lord returns man's Free Will will be curtailed more in line to God's Will and man will be instructed under the Christ's temporary reign, how to cease using their carnal minds and reason and instead think and do as God would have them do.

job 2:1 says:Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

so in this passage the Lord is real,job is real............but satan isnt real.............that doesnt make since at all..........

Satan means an adversary that's all.

e.g. 6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. 7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.' 8 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?' 9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, . . . . (Job 1:6 - 9) YLT

It doesn't say that this adversary was a son of God, it only says this adversary ' came among the sons of God '.

You really need to go Online to wrestedscriptures.com and as I tried to get you to do before but you repeatedly ignore it.

Just as you ignore my Cyclic reasoming that decimates any hint of heavenly spirit angel disobedience.

matt25:41:“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Cyclic reasong demonstrates no evil spirit beings so this is figurative language for utter destruction of the wicked and disobedient mortals.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:44) KJV

IF you believe the fire is literally eternal and literally never ending, then you must also believe the worms are also immortal?

We also know Judas for example was ' a devil ' and his prognosis is likely eternal death and silence.

this doesnt sound like just your mind because those that have rejected christ are going to the same place satan is,...............there wouldnt have been a distingusted between satan and the accursed...........it would have been the same if satan was man mind.

The Hebrew term Satan takes many forms of adversaries.

#1: The carnal mind is the adversary to the spiritual mind.
#2: Disease is the adversary of good health.
#3: Peter was an adversary for trying to prevent the Lord from doing his God's Will.
#4: The Holy angel was an adversary to Balaam.

You are making the continual mistake of ascribing a singular meaning of ' adversary ' to every Scripture where an adversary is mentioned. The context of the passages helps determine the identity of the adversary mentioned. e.g. #1, #2, #3, #4 above.

It has also been proven that the Hebrew Term Satan is never a proper name but you ignore that also.

Thank you

#6 Nickman

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:41 PM

Rodney were not trying to Gang up on you.

The word satan should have never made it into your English bible because it is not (or I should say at the time of the KJV translation) an English word. It was forced into English by theological biases in a real supernatural satan. The equivalent to satan in English and the proper definition is adversary or hinderer.

So there goes the satan creature out the window just by definition and proof that it is not an English word but has an equivalent that wasnt properly translated.

When you realize that anything can be a satan then the bible will make complete sense to you and you will see the real enemy they are talking about = people, governments, idols and most importantly yourself.

v/r
Nick
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#7 RODNEY

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:16 AM

Nick:......I think adam being the father of lies is off base since the serpent lied to eve first by telling her that she wouldnt die......

Nick didn't write that RODNEY, I Composer did.

If you go back and read again properly I explained in detail why Adam was the FIRST Liar and in fact I don't believe the Serpent Creature ' maliciously lied at all ' (another Thread perhaps) but regardless for now Adam was the FIRST Liar.

.....who is that serpent of old?rev 20:2 says:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

so is your mind going to be bound for a thousand years........please

The mind of carnal flesh yes indeed. When the Lord returns man's Free Will will be curtailed more in line to God's Will and man will be instructed under the Christ's temporary reign, how to cease using their carnal minds and reason and instead think and do as God would have them do.

job 2:1 says:Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

so in this passage the Lord is real,job is real............but satan isnt real.............that doesnt make since at all..........

Satan means an adversary that's all.

e.g. 6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. 7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.' 8 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?' 9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, . . . . (Job 1:6 - 9) YLT

It doesn't say that this adversary was a son of God, it only says this adversary ' came among the sons of God '.

You really need to go Online to wrestedscriptures.com and as I tried to get you to do before but you repeatedly ignore it.

Just as you ignore my Cyclic reasoming that decimates any hint of heavenly spirit angel disobedience.

matt25:41:“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Cyclic reasong demonstrates no evil spirit beings so this is figurative language for utter destruction of the wicked and disobedient mortals.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:44) KJV

IF you believe the fire is literally eternal and literally never ending, then you must also believe the worms are also immortal?

We also know Judas for example was ' a devil ' and his prognosis is likely eternal death and silence.

this doesnt sound like just your mind because those that have rejected christ are going to the same place satan is,...............there wouldnt have been a distingusted between satan and the accursed...........it would have been the same if satan was man mind.

The Hebrew term Satan takes many forms of adversaries.

#1: The carnal mind is the adversary to the spiritual mind.
#2: Disease is the adversary of good health.
#3: Peter was an adversary for trying to prevent the Lord from doing his God's Will.
#4: The Holy angel was an adversary to Balaam.

You are making the continual mistake of ascribing a singular meaning of ' adversary ' to every Scripture where an adversary is mentioned. The context of the passages helps determine the identity of the adversary mentioned. e.g. #1, #2, #3, #4 above.

It has also been proven that the Hebrew Term Satan is never a proper name but you ignore that also.

Thank you

composer:I think your stretching it,touching of the fruit I am sure wasnt a lie,if you read the gospels there are 4 differnt views differnt things are said differnt things are added that the other doesnt say.I am sure the temptation from fondleing the fruit would lead to eating the fruit.

God is a spirit (John 4:24).

Man consists of a spirit dwelling in a physical body (James 2:26).

Angels are spirits that serve God (Heb. 1:13,14).

We cannot see any of these spirits, yet the Bible repeatedly affirms they exist. In a similar way the Bible describes Satan as a living spirit being, who has other spirit beings (demons) who serve him.

We must believe the devil exists for the same reason we believe in these other spirit beings -- not because we see him, but because the Bible teaches it.

matt 13:19 says:When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

So there is a wicked one that is totally separte from mans wicked heart.

1 john 3:8 says:He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

It says the devil sinned from the begining not adam.

Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7 Satan is described as a living being, just as real as God, Job, Job's family, and Job's friends. He could speak and reason. If his part is not real, why take any of it as real?

It has also been proven that the Hebrew Term Satan is never a proper name but you ignore that also.


my point here is only a couple of angels were named..........how about all the millions of other angels,they are just said to be angels,with no proper names,yet they exist dont they.
so a lack of proper names doesnt mean anything.

I noticed you using the ylt for your argument.......the ylt aslo calls in john 1:1 the word is God.......you need to take the whole bible no just snipits from all these translations to fit your theology.

rev 12:9 :So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Who is this devil and his angels that is cast to the earth?
in rev 12 it speaks of michael and his angels fight the devil and his angels and the devil is cast out of heaven.
Who is this Michael and his angels?
If you think this michael and his angels are the good angels and not figurative why would you think the devil and his angels are figurative.

rev 20:2:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Its the first time I have heard of mans mind being call that serpent of old!!!

heb2:14:Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Does mans mind have the power of death?
jesus went and took the keys of death and hades from the devil.

more to come.
thanks Rod



#8 composer

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 07:32 AM

. . . . rev 12:9 :So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I will try again in smaller bites.

The Satan (ADVERSARY) of Revelation ' deceives the whole world ' so we read.

Your Satan however as I have said before, in comparison, is a failure and could not even deceive the only two people who were in the world when the world started. i.e. Adam & Eve

And Adam was not deceived, . . . . (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV


You also continue to ignore my Cyclic reasoning that decimates the claims of fallen spirit beings.

AC

#9 composer

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 08:23 AM

Angels are spirits that serve God (Heb. 1:13,14).

You claim some spirit angels don't serve God?

That is a contradiction.

Edited by composer, 07 November 2008 - 08:33 AM.


#10 composer

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 08:32 AM

my point here is only a couple of angels were named..........how about all the millions of other angels,they are just said to be angels,with no proper names,yet they exist dont they.
so a lack of proper names doesnt mean anything.

The fact that millions of heavenly angels are not specifically named in the Bible doesn't mean that the Hebrew Term meaning an adversary can suddenly become a proper name?

Thank you

#11 Colter

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

Hi Rodneny,



I see the war in heaven as predating Adam and Eve. It was a war of allegiance between the new order, those loyal to the apostate celestial beings who rebelled against God, and those who remained loyal to the rule of the Most High.

In our realm it was/is a battle of righteous ideas and material ideas, in heaven it was the usurped authority by the Devil, and the righteous rule of our Lord, the Son of God. In righteousness, that Battle was won by the incarnate Jesus of Nazareth, the matter is settled, only the legacy remains. "The prince of this world is defeated"

The Love of our Lord was such that he came down to the least of his children and won the battle in righteous proof. He won back mankind by demonstrating the superiority of the Fathers way vrs the way of the Atheist Devil. In so doing he won sovereign authority.

The ideological father of the people who sought to destroy Christ was the Devil.

The illogical explanation of these guys is that God created a talking animal, who spoke the same language as Adam and Eve, an animal who knew the will of God, yet worked against his will, and lead the whole world into darkness. That is a God divided against himself.

The story of Adam and Eve is quite old, and apparently missing a lot of facts based on what did survive in the story.

I think the Book of Revelation are the remains of a great panoramic revelation, past-present-future. Some apocalyptic thinker's got hold of it and messed it all up.
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#12 composer

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 01:37 AM

Hi Rodneny,
I see the war in heaven as predating Adam and Eve.

Hello Colter,

When was the Book of Revelation recorded by John?

Approx. AD 96

What does Rev. 1: 1 state?

. . . . to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev. 1: 1) KJV


This War in Heaven was a Future EVENT Post AD96 so where did your naughty spirit angels come from before Adam & Eve?

Also this prophecy of a ' War in Heaven ' was not to take place ' In God's Heavenly Domain ' being a book of signs and symbols (Rev. 1: 1 ' signified ') it is a reference to a Political War on earth in the Political Heavens in which the Jews believed.

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabtical Appendix)


It was a war of allegiance between the new order, those loyal to the apostate celestial beings who rebelled against God, and those who remained loyal to the rule of the Most High.

In our realm it was/is a battle of righteous ideas and material ideas, in heaven it was the usurped authority by the Devil, and the righteous rule of our Lord, the Son of God. In righteousness, that Battle was won by the incarnate Jesus of Nazareth, the matter is settled, only the legacy remains. "The prince of this world is defeated"

The Love of our Lord was such that he came down to the least of his children and won the battle in righteous proof. He won back mankind by demonstrating the superiority of the Fathers way vrs the way of the Atheist Devil. In so doing he won sovereign authority.

The ideological father of the people who sought to destroy Christ was the Devil.

As I already explained I believe the Bible demonstrates that Adam was ' the devil ' in the beginning and Christ destroyed Adam's disobedient inclinations by doing the opposite of Adam and thereby destroyed the works of the Devil (Adam)

The illogical explanation of these guys is that God created a talking animal, who spoke the same language as Adam and Eve, an animal who knew the will of God, yet worked against his will, and lead the whole world into darkness. That is a God divided against himself.

The Serpent Creature never deceived Adam and led him into darkness, Adam did that all by himself. (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV

Adam named all the animals so when Eve said she had been conversing with it, it came as no surprise to Adam who would alternatively have said " What, a talking Serpent that can't be right, there is something suspicious there " which of course he never did, because he knew the Serpent Creature was capable of rational thought (although carnal) and speech.

The Lord Jesus also commended the wisdom of the serpent (Matt. 10:16) KJV which would be a strange thing if it were an unintelligent creature?

The story of Adam and Eve is quite old, and apparently missing a lot of facts based on what did survive in the story.

I think the Book of Revelation are the remains of a great panoramic revelation, past-present-future. Some apocalyptic thinker's got hold of it and messed it all up.

. . . shortly come to pass (Rev. 1: 1) KJV doesn't equate to already happened.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 08 November 2008 - 02:00 AM.


#13 Colter

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:01 AM

Hi Rodneny,
I see the war in heaven as predating Adam and Eve.

Hello Colter,

When was the Book of Revelation recorded by John?

Approx. AD 96

What does Rev. 1: 1 state?

. . . . to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev. 1: 1) KJV


This War in Heaven was a Future EVENT Post AD96 so where did your naughty spirit angels come from before Adam & Eve?

Also this prophecy of a ' War in Heaven ' was not to take place ' In God's Heavenly Domain ' being a book of signs and symbols (Rev. 1: 1 ' signified ') it is a reference to a Political War on earth in the Political Heavens in which the Jews believed.

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabtical Appendix)


It was a war of allegiance between the new order, those loyal to the apostate celestial beings who rebelled against God, and those who remained loyal to the rule of the Most High.

In our realm it was/is a battle of righteous ideas and material ideas, in heaven it was the usurped authority by the Devil, and the righteous rule of our Lord, the Son of God. In righteousness, that Battle was won by the incarnate Jesus of Nazareth, the matter is settled, only the legacy remains. "The prince of this world is defeated"

The Love of our Lord was such that he came down to the least of his children and won the battle in righteous proof. He won back mankind by demonstrating the superiority of the Fathers way vrs the way of the Atheist Devil. In so doing he won sovereign authority.

The ideological father of the people who sought to destroy Christ was the Devil.

As I already explained I believe the Bible demonstrates that Adam was ' the devil ' in the beginning and Christ destroyed Adam's disobedient inclinations by doing the opposite of Adam and thereby destroyed the works of the Devil (Adam)

The illogical explanation of these guys is that God created a talking animal, who spoke the same language as Adam and Eve, an animal who knew the will of God, yet worked against his will, and lead the whole world into darkness. That is a God divided against himself.

The Serpent Creature never deceived Adam and led him into darkness, Adam did that all by himself. (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV

Adam named all the animals so when Eve said she had been conversing with it, it came as no surprise to Adam who would alternatively have said " What, a talking Serpent that can't be right, there is something suspicious there " which of course he never did, because he knew the Serpent Creature was capable of rational thought (although carnal) and speech.

The Lord Jesus also commended the wisdom of the serpent (Matt. 10:16) KJV which would be a strange thing if it were an unintelligent creature?

The story of Adam and Eve is quite old, and apparently missing a lot of facts based on what did survive in the story.

I think the Book of Revelation are the remains of a great panoramic revelation, past-present-future. Some apocalyptic thinker's got hold of it and messed it all up.

. . . shortly come to pass (Rev. 1: 1) KJV doesn't equate to already happened.

Thank you


Thanks Composer for taking the time to lay that out, If only the Bible had been properly written these hidden story lines would be available and the Christian world would not have been mislead.


Colter
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#14 composer

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:33 AM

Always happy to continue correcting your current misunderstandings Colter.

Now your Satan & Pals, Revelation, Adam & Eve claims have been decimated, what do you want to discuss next?

IF all the Biblical facts were truly ' hidden ' then I wouldn't have been able to find them, but they are legitimately there as I pointed out to you.

Thank you

#15 Colter

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 01:05 PM

Always happy to continue correcting your current misunderstandings Colter.

Now your Satan & Pals, Revelation, Adam & Eve claims have been decimated, what do you want to discuss next?

IF all the Biblical facts were truly ' hidden ' then I wouldn't have been able to find them, but they are legitimately there as I pointed out to you.

Thank you


Composer,

You haven't decimated anything in my faith, you have only demonstrated the spirit of the Pharisees.

It's odd that you have the same spirit as non believers, you use logic like the Jews use logic to deny Christ all together, you use logic like atheist do to debunk the existence of God. You haven't decimated anything but your own vision, you are only reinforcing your own blindness.

I continually experience this with the anti-something crowd, you claim to believe in the Bible as the word of God, you need that as authority to back up your doctrine which isn't in the Bible. Heck, I think I believe more of what's in the Bible then you guys do.

I can't help but to wonder if the anti-something religions are more a fellowship of people that have rebellion in common. Your message is constantly negative and uninspiring.


Colter
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#16 ChickenSoup

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:55 PM

Always happy to continue correcting your current misunderstandings Colter.

Now your Satan & Pals, Revelation, Adam & Eve claims have been decimated, what do you want to discuss next?

IF all the Biblical facts were truly ' hidden ' then I wouldn't have been able to find them, but they are legitimately there as I pointed out to you.

Thank you


Composer,

You haven't decimated anything in my faith, you have only demonstrated the spirit of the Pharisees.

It's odd that you have the same spirit as non believers, you use logic like the Jews use logic to deny Christ all together, you use logic like atheist do to debunk the existence of God. You haven't decimated anything but your own vision, you are only reinforcing your own blindness.

I continually experience this with the anti-something crowd, you claim to believe in the Bible as the word of God, you need that as authority to back up your doctrine which isn't in the Bible. Heck, I think I believe more of what's in the Bible then you guys do.

I can't help but to wonder if the anti-something religions are more a fellowship of people that have rebellion in common. Your message is constantly negative and uninspiring.


Colter



Would you just deal with what Composer has written. Why do you always do this. Instead of dealing with the argument you find it necessary to attack the person. That's your tactic. "Ooooh, you disagree with me, so you're just a pharisee!" Can you, for once, take part in a discussion where you address the point being made.

Composer rightly says that Revelation, as stated by John, was written in signs and symbols.
Therefore, it's symbolic language. Do you agree or not?, if not why?

Revelation also states in the first verses that is a book of things which was shortly come to pass. Meaning the future.
Do you agree or not?, if not why?

Seriously. Seriously. No joke, I'm asking.

#17 ChickenSoup

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:59 PM

The illogical explanation of these guys is that God created a talking animal, who spoke the same language as Adam and Eve, an animal who knew the will of God, yet worked against his will, and lead the whole world into darkness. That is a God divided against himself.

:ROFL: Way to go. Nice job MIS-representing our belief. Well done. That's a hum-dinger!

#18 Colter

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 04:58 PM

Composer rightly says that Revelation, as stated by John, was written in signs and symbols.
Therefore, it's symbolic language. Do you agree or not?, if not why?


I see the book of revelation as the surviving fragments of a "great revelation" to John, but sadly, it did not survive in tact, it was edited and distorted to the point of incoherence. The God revealed in the life of Christ bears no resemblance to the sadistic God written into the BOR. "Beware of false prophets, by their fruits ye will know them."

The BOR was controversial and the last to be added to the conical writings. Everyone who reads it seems to come up with a different idea about what it reveals. There are many schools of interpretation, the Preterist view, Futurist view, Historicist view, Spiritual or idealist view, Eastern Orthodox view, Paschal Liturgical view, Anglican view, Radical discipleship, Esoteric view. The historical-critical method and my favorite Dismissal:



Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books". Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". "Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work" and "John Calvin had grave doubts about its value." wiki


Revelation also states in the first verses that is a book of things which was shortly come to pass. Meaning the future.
Do you agree or not?, if not why?



I don't believe that the prologue is John talking, but latter added by a second party whose opinion it was that everything in Johns revelation was post AD96. Note that the writer of the prologue said that the events of REV were near at hand, we are 2000 years away from near at hand, we are 2000 years away from Jesus' "soon to return".


Prologue

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Modern views

wiki

"Many modern scholars believe that John the Apostle, John the Evangelist, and John of Patmos refer to three separate individuals. This can be determined via new means of inquiry such as textual criticism. Certain lines of evidence suggest that John of Patmos wrote only Revelation, not the Gospel of John nor the Epistles of John. For one, the author of Revelation identifies himself as "John" several times, but the author of the Gospel of John never identifies himself directly. While both works liken Jesus to a lamb, they consistently use different words for lamb when referring to him—the Gospel uses amnos, Revelation uses arnion. Lastly, the Gospel is written in nearly flawless Greek, but Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel's author.

In the Anchor Bible volume on Revelation, J. Massynberde Ford contends that the core verses of the book, in general chapters 4 through 22, are surviving records of the prophecies of John the Baptist.She notes, for example, that the Lamb of God references in the Gospels are all associated with John the Baptist, and she ties other hallmarks of Revelation to what is known of the Baptist."



I realize that Composer is not a Christadelphian, I have had numerous conversations with him on different web sites, I simply do not believe some of his conclusions and see it as a waste of time to go through his long posts and refute his conclusions.

But I most certainly have had Christadelphians explain to me that the Beast, who became a serpent was just a talking animal. I also see evidence of pre-Adamic man in Gen, not to mention a very old world with a long geological record.

PS: I know it's frustrating talking with someone who see's the Bible the way I do, but it's equally frustrating when people who say they believe the Bible use the "harminiszng" technique to make it all work out based on what I see as pre-conceived ideas. If you don't believe in Satan then just say so instead of depersonalizing him to suit your disbelief. The same goes for the divinity of Christ, the after life in heaven, the spirit of truth, the spirit rebirth and on and on.



Colter

Edited by Colter, 08 November 2008 - 05:01 PM.

We must give up all hope for a better past.

#19 ChickenSoup

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:30 PM

Finally, that's all anyone asks.

My next question. Did you just randomly google this information or did you research this information thoroughly? Serious question.

Composer rightly says that Revelation, as stated by John, was written in signs and symbols.
Therefore, it's symbolic language. Do you agree or not?, if not why?


I see the book of revelation as the surviving fragments of a "great revelation" to John, but sadly, it did not survive in tact, it was edited and distorted to the point of incoherence. The God revealed in the life of Christ bears no resemblance to the sadistic God written into the BOR. "Beware of false prophets, by their fruits ye will know them."

The BOR was controversial and the last to be added to the conical writings. Everyone who reads it seems to come up with a different idea about what it reveals. There are many schools of interpretation, the Preterist view, Futurist view, Historicist view, Spiritual or idealist view, Eastern Orthodox view, Paschal Liturgical view, Anglican view, Radical discipleship, Esoteric view. The historical-critical method and my favorite Dismissal:



Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books". Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". "Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work" and "John Calvin had grave doubts about its value." wiki


Revelation also states in the first verses that is a book of things which was shortly come to pass. Meaning the future.
Do you agree or not?, if not why?



I don't believe that the prologue is John talking, but latter added by a second party whose opinion it was that everything in Johns revelation was post AD96. Note that the writer of the prologue said that the events of REV were near at hand, we are 2000 years away from near at hand, we are 2000 years away from Jesus' "soon to return".


Prologue

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Modern views

wiki

"Many modern scholars believe that John the Apostle, John the Evangelist, and John of Patmos refer to three separate individuals. This can be determined via new means of inquiry such as textual criticism. Certain lines of evidence suggest that John of Patmos wrote only Revelation, not the Gospel of John nor the Epistles of John. For one, the author of Revelation identifies himself as "John" several times, but the author of the Gospel of John never identifies himself directly. While both works liken Jesus to a lamb, they consistently use different words for lamb when referring to him—the Gospel uses amnos, Revelation uses arnion. Lastly, the Gospel is written in nearly flawless Greek, but Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel's author.

In the Anchor Bible volume on Revelation, J. Massynberde Ford contends that the core verses of the book, in general chapters 4 through 22, are surviving records of the prophecies of John the Baptist.She notes, for example, that the Lamb of God references in the Gospels are all associated with John the Baptist, and she ties other hallmarks of Revelation to what is known of the Baptist."



I realize that Composer is not a Christadelphian, I have had numerous conversations with him on different web sites, I simply do not believe some of his conclusions and see it as a waste of time to go through his long posts and refute his conclusions.


Next you wrote:

But I most certainly have had Christadelphians explain to me that the Beast, who became a serpent was just a talking animal. I also see evidence of pre-Adamic man in Gen, not to mention a very old world with a long geological record.


Sorry but all of this is incorrect. No Christadelphian believes that the "Beast, became a serpent". It might also surprise you to know that some Christadelphians do believe in Pre-Adamic man in Genesis and that the earth is old. I don't understand what pre-Adamic man has to do with the serpent though.

But this:

The illogical explanation of these guys is that God created a talking animal, who spoke the same language as Adam and Eve, an animal who knew the will of God, yet worked against his will, and lead the whole world into darkness. That is a God divided against himself.


Is completely wrong. No one believes that "God divided against himself" as a result of the serpent. That's just non-sense. You really have no understanding of the Christadelphian theology as you think you do. :ROFL:

PS: I know it's frustrating talking with someone who see's the Bible the way I do, but it's equally frustrating when people who say they believe the Bible use the "harminiszng" technique to make it all work out based on what I see as pre-conceived ideas.

What harmonizing technique are you referring to? When you approach scripture like you do - which is taking one verse and ignore everything else and also add other extra-biblical documents, not to mention - a few celestial beings, which have nothing to do with scripture then it's no wonder it doesn't harmonize for you.

If you don't believe in Satan then just say so instead of depersonalizing him to suit your disbelief.

How are we depersonalizing him to suit our belief? I don't understand what you mean. Can you please give examples?

The same goes for the divinity of Christ, the after life in heaven, the spirit of truth, the spirit rebirth and on and on.

Nope, don't understand what you mean.

#20 Nickman

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 07:33 PM

I smell fallacies in Colter's posts.
If I had nine of my fingers missing I wouldn't type any slower.
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#21 RODNEY

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:59 PM

. . . . rev 12:9 :So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I will try again in smaller bites.

The Satan (ADVERSARY) of Revelation ' deceives the whole world ' so we read.

Your Satan however as I have said before, in comparison, is a failure and could not even deceive the only two people who were in the world when the world started. i.e. Adam & Eve

And Adam was not deceived, . . . . (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV


You also continue to ignore my Cyclic reasoning that decimates the claims of fallen spirit beings.

AC

composer:When your a christain your not of this world,rev 20:3 says"and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

so its obviously not talking about those that are Gods,but thost that are of there father the devil.

you need to read the whole bible and not just pick out 1 verse and build your theology.

thanks Rod



#22 RODNEY

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:08 PM

Angels are spirits that serve God (Heb. 1:13,14).

You claim some spirit angels don't serve God?

That is a contradiction.


composer:heb 1:6 says:But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “ Let all the angels of God worship Him

let ALL the angels of God..................just the angels of God.
Not satan(the dragon,devil) and his angels rev 12:7

there you go again with 1 scripture at a time again.

thanks Rod



#23 RODNEY

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:10 PM

my point here is only a couple of angels were named..........how about all the millions of other angels,they are just said to be angels,with no proper names,yet they exist dont they.
so a lack of proper names doesnt mean anything.

The fact that millions of heavenly angels are not specifically named in the Bible doesn't mean that the Hebrew Term meaning an adversary can suddenly become a proper name?

Thank you

composer:so since almost all the angels except a couple that have a proper name,do all the countless others do exist since they dont have names,thats just silly,to use that excuse.

thanks Rod



#24 RODNEY

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:17 PM

I smell fallacies in Colter's posts.

nick:care to comment on this:I think your stretching it,touching of the fruit I am sure wasnt a lie,if you read the gospels there are 4 differnt views differnt things are said differnt things are added that the other doesnt say.I am sure the temptation from fondleing the fruit would lead to eating the fruit.

God is a spirit (John 4:24).

Man consists of a spirit dwelling in a physical body (James 2:26).

Angels are spirits that serve God (Heb. 1:13,14).

We cannot see any of these spirits, yet the Bible repeatedly affirms they exist. In a similar way the Bible describes Satan as a living spirit being, who has other spirit beings (demons) who serve him.

We must believe the devil exists for the same reason we believe in these other spirit beings -- not because we see him, but because the Bible teaches it.

matt 13:19 says:When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

So there is a wicked one that is totally separte from mans wicked heart.

1 john 3:8 says:He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

It says the devil sinned from the begining not adam.

Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7 Satan is described as a living being, just as real as God, Job, Job's family, and Job's friends. He could speak and reason. If his part is not real, why take any of it as real?




my point here is only a couple of angels were named..........how about all the millions of other angels,they are just said to be angels,with no proper names,yet they exist dont they.
so a lack of proper names doesnt mean anything.

I noticed you using the ylt for your argument.......the ylt aslo calls in john 1:1 the word is God.......you need to take the whole bible no just snipits from all these translations to fit your theology.

rev 12:9 :So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Who is this devil and his angels that is cast to the earth?
in rev 12 it speaks of michael and his angels fight the devil and his angels and the devil is cast out of heaven.
Who is this Michael and his angels?
If you think this michael and his angels are the good angels and not figurative why would you think the devil and his angels are figurative.

rev 20:2:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Its the first time I have heard of mans mind being call that serpent of old!!!

heb2:14:Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Does mans mind have the power of death?
jesus went and took the keys of death and hades from the devil.

more to come.
thanks Rod



#25 Nickman

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:42 PM

Rodney said:

care to comment on this:I think your stretching it,touching of the fruit I am sure wasnt a lie,if you read the gospels there are 4 differnt views differnt things are said differnt things are added that the other doesnt say.I am sure the temptation from fondleing the fruit would lead to eating the fruit.


You are replying to Comp not me.

God is a spirit (John 4:24).

This doesnt mean he is a vapor.

Man consists of a spirit dwelling in a physical body (James 2:26).

The word spirit or pneuma means breath so by definition man is a breath and this is consistant with James 1:14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.
Man does not live past death he is like a vapor. If man lives past death then James is wrong in his assumption that man is a vapor.. He is not talking about the body he is talking about the soul. Here is the definition

1) life

a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

b) every living soul

2) life

the Bible describes Satan as a living spirit being, who has other spirit beings (demons) who serve him.

Show me

We must believe the devil exists for the same reason we believe in these other spirit beings -- not because we see him, but because the Bible teaches it.


I will show 745 times where people never survive death. I will also show you that angels are all good and can never sin. The wages of sin is death.

matt 13:19 says:When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.


The wicked one is sin which enters the heart not a being.
James 1: 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, [b]gives birth to death.


Man tempts himself and the sin which follows causes death.

So there is a wicked one that is totally separte from mans wicked heart.

Which is sin. There is no need for satan because man is fully capable of rebelling against God on his own in his own heart.

1 john 3:8 says:He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


Talking about sin again

It says the devil sinned from the begining not adam.

Comp said Adam is the father of lies. I believe that sin is the father of lies when mans heart conjures up evil against the lord. Father is a term which means the starter of someting. Nabal is the father of those that live in tents.

Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7 Satan is described as a living being, just as real as God, Job, Job's family, and Job's friends. He could speak and reason. If his part is not real, why take any of it as real?


The verse you quote literally says adversary. This adversary in Job is human. Satan is always a real tangible persom place or thing. It can even be a baby.


my point here is only a couple of angels were named..........how about all the millions of other angels,they are just said to be angels,with no proper names,yet they exist dont they.
so a lack of proper names doesnt mean anything.


Millions? where did you get that figure?

v/r
Nick
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#26 Colter

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:34 PM

My next question. Did you just randomly google this information or did you research this information thoroughly? Serious question.


No, I've been studying the documentary hypothesis and other schools of Biblical criticism for a long time. As strange as it may seem, my studies have lead me to realize that there is more preserved in the writings of the Bible that is true then I once thought.

The OT books as we know them were redacted during the captivity. I believe that during that period the Priest class was under immense pressure to explain why the Israelites were once again in bondage. In an attempt to prop up the flagging spirit of the Hebrew people they went to the other extreme, they recast their entire history, converting secular history into a miraculous one. I do not believe that they claimed to be writing the "word of God", rather a narrative to preserve the identity of the Hebrew people.

Sorry but all of this is incorrect. No Christadelphian believes that the "Beast, became a serpent". It might also surprise you to know that some Christadelphians do believe in Pre-Adamic man in Genesis and that the earth is old. I don't understand what pre-Adamic man has to do with the serpent though.


* The Bible says that the "Beast" became a serpent, and that the beast itself was condemned by God.

* I am aware that some CD's affirm pre-Admic man, but that's not what the Bible says (outside of the clues left in the story). The Adamic account was carried by oral tradition long before it was written down. The Hebrew language was still in development after Exodus.

* Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the beast was already evil, the world had already fallen into darkness when Adam and Eve (incarnate sons of God) were reconstituted. They arrived as adults, educated and spoke the same language as the beast. Apart from extra biblical sources one can see that the beast was apposed to the will of God and managed to compel Eve to turn away from the will of God, "eat of the fruit".

Christadelphians argue that Eves sin brought death to the world, that can't be if we have the bones of humans that are hundreds of thousands of years old dispersed within the remains of civilizations all around the globe. Those dead people pre date the time line of Gen.

What harmonizing technique are you referring to? When you approach scripture like you do - which is taking one verse and ignore everything else and also add other extra-biblical documents, not to mention - a few celestial beings, which have nothing to do with scripture then it's no wonder it doesn't harmonize for you.


* An example of harmonizing is when Jesus said he would raise himself up, but that cause problems for the anti-divinity crowd so they look around to find a place where a second party is referring to the event of the resurrection in order to shoot down the words of Jesus. It is my opinion, based on my experience, and the observation of others that happen upon CD debates that this is what frequently happens.

* I'm perplexed as to why you would say that celestial beings have nothing to do with scripture, they are all over the place in the Bible. Of particular interest are the ones that came down and visited with Abraham at the trees of Mamre. There are others and they have names.

How are we depersonalizing him to suit our belief? I don't understand what you mean. Can you please give examples?


* Christadelphians do not believe that Satan or Demons were real so they make them into something else. Satan is a proper name and predates Chronicles.

Edited by Colter, 09 November 2008 - 01:21 AM.

We must give up all hope for a better past.

#27 composer

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:55 PM

. . . . rev 12:9 :So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

#1: The Satan (ADVERSARY) of Revelation ' deceives the whole world ' so we read.

Your Satan however as I have said before, in comparison, is a failure and could not even deceive the only two people who were in the world when the world started. i.e. Adam & Eve

And Adam was not deceived, . . . . (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV

Your Satan RODNEY was a failure and couldn't even deceive 2 out of 2 when there were only 2 available to be deceived.

#2: You also continue to ignore my Cyclic reasoning that decimates the claims of fallen spirit beings.

composer:When your a christain your not of this world,rev 20:3 says"and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

so its obviously not talking about those that are Gods,but thost that are of there father the devil.

you need to read the whole bible and not just pick out 1 verse and build your theology.

thanks Rod

#3: As I explained in detail, Adam is the devil because he falsely accused God. Adam's lie was BEFORE the Serpent spoke to Eve.

Your current doctrine is a failure and the Scriptural facts (all of them) easily prove it.

So let's recap:
#1: Your Satan was a failure who couldn't deceive 2 out of only 2.
#2: Cyclic reasoning proves your Satan & Pals are a figment of your imagination.
#3: The Devil and Father of Lies is Adam. (The wise talking Serpent never maliciously lied at all, it was praised by Christ for its intelligence, but it reasoned carnally and actually ' told the truth ' the way it perceived it, which was at odds with the warning God gave Adam and demonstrates again that God requires Spiritual obedience, not carnal reasoning that opposes God)

Thank you

#28 composer

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 12:01 AM

Angels are spirits that serve God (Heb. 1:13,14).


Not satan(the dragon,devil) and his angels rev 12:7

You still contradict yourself RODNEY. (Re: Post #22 above)

Thank you

Edited by composer, 09 November 2008 - 12:14 AM.


#29 ChickenSoup

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 03:07 AM

I'll get the first half of your post later.

* The Bible says that the "Beast" became a serpent, and that the beast itself was condemned by God.

Where does the bible say the Beast became a serpent?

* I am aware that some CD's affirm pre-Admic man, but that's not what the Bible says (outside of the clues left in the story). The Adamic account was carried by oral tradition long before it was written down. The Hebrew language was still in development after Exodus.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. You brought it up. So I'm going to skip over this bit.

* Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the beast was already evil, the world had already fallen into darkness when Adam and Eve (incarnate sons of God) were reconstituted. They arrived as adults, educated and spoke the same language as the beast. Apart from extra biblical sources one can see that the beast was apposed to the will of God and managed to compel Eve to turn away from the will of God, "eat of the fruit".

No, the Bible says that Eve reasoned with a serpent. The bible also says that the serpent was a 'beast of the field' who was subtil. More subtil than all the OTHER beasts of the field. That's what the Bible says. It says nothing about "Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the serpent was already evil".

Christadelphians argue that Eves sin brought death to the world, that can't be if we have the bones of humans that are hundreds of thousands of years old dispersed within the remains of civilizations all around the globe. Those dead people pre date the time line of Gen.

Adam's sin brought death to the those within a covenant relationship with God. Pre-Adamic man were not in a covenant relationship with God. Adam and Eve were special creations. I have yet to make connections with Pre-Adamic man which means, I'm not yet fully convinced so the topic of Pre-Adamic man has no bearing on me but I do know that you're misrepresenting how it all works in the grand scheme of things.

* An example of harmonizing is when Jesus said he would raise himself up, but that cause problems for the anti-divinity crowd so they look around to find a place where a second party is referring to the event of the resurrection in order to shoot down the words of Jesus. It is my opinion, based on my experience, and the observation of others that happen upon CD debates that this is what frequently happens

This was already answered - so many many times and you keep ignoring it. He was given that authority (or privileged from HIS FATHER).

**this is a different topic so you might want to address it on the appropriate thread.

* I'm perplexed as to why you would say that celestial beings have nothing to do with scripture, they are all over the place in the Bible. Of particular interest are the ones that came down and visited with Abraham at the trees of Mamre. There are others and they have names.

Celestial beings didn't write the bible - nor did they provide any new and recent Revelations.

How are we depersonalizing him to suit our belief? I don't understand what you mean. Can you please give examples?


* Christadelphians do not believe that Satan or Demons were real so they make them into something else. Satan is a proper name and predates Chronicles.

Well, it's simple. The bible doesn't say that a supernatural being and his supernatural minions are real.

The bible says that evil exists within the human heart.

Jesus own words in Mark:

Mark
7:20 “What comes out of a person defiles him.
7:21 For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder,
7:22 adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly
.
7:23 All these evils come from within and defile a person.”

There are more verses which speak the same thing. So, what's the purpose of needing some cat named Satan if we have to continue to overcome our natural inclinations to sin.

Blaming it all on the devil makes no sense.

#30 Colter

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 02:12 PM

Well, it's simple. The bible doesn't say that a supernatural being and his supernatural minions are real.

The bible says that evil exists within the human heart.

Jesus own words in Mark:

Mark
7:20 “What comes out of a person defiles him.
7:21 For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder,
7:22 adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly.
7:23 All these evils come from within and defile a person.”

There are more verses which speak the same thing. So, what's the purpose of needing some cat named Satan if we have to continue to overcome our natural inclinations to sin.

Blaming it all on the devil makes no sense.


I agree with all of that with the exception of the one time existence of fallen ones, lead by Lucifer.

Regardless of the fall of the evil ones, there would be free will in the world, the choice to do the will of God or forsake him. Nor do I believe in an uncontrollable sin curse brought on by Eves choice, sin is not inherited.

If one were to take identical twins, separate them at birth, one going to a bad environment and another a healthy environment, chances are they will develop differently. We are born into a shaky environment, one which would have been markedly different had the "prince of this world" not forsaken his trust.

The most high does indeed rule in the kingdoms of men, he delegates authority. One of those celestial administrators betrayed us on an unimaginable scale. The closest comparison I can make would be the Pope going off the rails and becoming an atheist. There would be war in the Vatican, the Pope and his followers would battle the faithful Cardinals and their followers.

Our world is still in a state of rehabilitation.

Where does the bible say the Beast became a serpent?


And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.


No, the Bible says that Eve reasoned with a serpent. The bible also says that the serpent was a 'beast of the field' who was subtil. More subtil than all the OTHER beasts of the field. That's what the Bible says. It says nothing about "Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the serpent was already evil".


The crafty beast came and engaged Eve.


TBCT



Colter
We must give up all hope for a better past.




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