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Rodney wants to know who is the father of lies?


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#61 Nickman

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:24 PM

composer:You are correct that spirts dont die.......God was addressing man when he was cursed to die for sinning,why because man has a body that can die........spirts dont have a fleshly body,thats is why jude 6 says:And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day

these wicked angel spirts are chained waiting for judgement...........this isnt man that is speaking of but angels.

2 peter 2:4 says:For if God did not spare the ANGELS who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

I PETER 3:19 . . . He went and preached to the SPIRTS in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water

2 cor 4:4 says:whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. notice the distinction between man and his mind and the god of this age SATAN..............

thanks Rod


Actually Rodney Jude says "angelos" which means messenger. The passage is saying even if the messengers of the Gospel sin they are held in chains by the grave in darkness for eternity. Chains are symbolic of the hold that death has on you.

"He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day"

Doesnt this sound like the grave? I say yes. Peter uses the same language about messengers as you have shown.

v/r
Nick
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#62 composer

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 01:22 AM

RODNEY's various levels of naughty spirit angels?

So RODNEY you want us to believe that this trinitarian god has some naughty spirit angels ' chained up? '

Chained spirits?

I can't also forget the trinitarian jesus that thought demon spirits could drown so he put them into swine?

Chained spirits, drowned spirits?

Hmm!

These naughty spirit angels must have been more naughty than the others because we are supposed to believe that less naughty ones are still flying around being less naughty and their demon pals are also flying around being less naughty and not as naughty as the spirits held in chains?

My Cyclic reasoning already proved you don't have any literal naughty spirit angels.

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) KJV, and not ' put in chains for thousands of years ' and we know that ALL spirit angels can never die or be put to death, so why does your god contradict itself?

I am sorry that my response may appear to be sarcastic, but whilst not truly intended, that is the legitimate Biblical conclusion based upon your current beliefs.

Thank you

#63 RODNEY

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 11:21 PM

RODNEY's various levels of naughty spirit angels?

So RODNEY you want us to believe that this trinitarian god has some naughty spirit angels ' chained up? '

Chained spirits?

I can't also forget the trinitarian jesus that thought demon spirits could drown so he put them into swine?

Chained spirits, drowned spirits?

Hmm!

These naughty spirit angels must have been more naughty than the others because we are supposed to believe that less naughty ones are still flying around being less naughty and their demon pals are also flying around being less naughty and not as naughty as the spirits held in chains?

My Cyclic reasoning already proved you don't have any literal naughty spirit angels.

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) KJV, and not ' put in chains for thousands of years ' and we know that ALL spirit angels can never die or be put to death, so why does your god contradict itself?

I am sorry that my response may appear to be sarcastic, but whilst not truly intended, that is the legitimate Biblical conclusion based upon your current beliefs.

Thank you

composer:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes.


So who was speakingto the Lord and who was the Lord speaking too..........Was it just Gods Mind speaking?............was it just sin speaking to God...............and sin answering back......and sin that cause boils on job...............

interesting this adversary(satan) can have a conversation with God and be in his presence........this adversary(satan) can hear what God has to say and answer back............so this adverary(satan) has some intellegence...........just as the serpent in the garden had......gen3:1 the serpent was more cunning then any beast..................the serpent of old is said to be the devil,satan.......

so who is this adversary(satan that has reason and intellegence and can hear and speak,and be in the presence of God?

Thanks Rod



#64 composer

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:59 AM

. . . . so who is this adversary(satan that has reason and intellegence and can hear and speak,and be in the presence of God? Thanks Rod

a) My Cyclic reasoning proves no literal fallen spirit angel beings.

b) ' ' ' nor demons

c) For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. (Psalm 5: 4) ASV

#Strong's concordance renders: 'sojourn': -

1a1) to sojourn, dwell for a time

1a2) to abide, stay, temporarily dwell

d) The Satan evil spirit being you currently believe in is supposed to thwart God's plans and disobey His commandments, but the Adversary (Satan) of Job is most obliging and obedient (Job 2: 7) which would be a blatant self contradiction and only expose its foolishmess and self contradicting behavior. - (If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? (Luke 11:18) KJV)

e) As with the Holy angel that acted as an Adversary to Balaam (Num. 22:24) KJV, such a Holy angel acting as an Adversary to Job would appear to closely fit the required criteria in most parts, true the actual identity of the Adversary is not specified, however it can not be an evil spirit being for the reasons already given. (a, b, c, d)

Thank you

Edited by composer, 16 November 2008 - 03:00 AM.


#65 RODNEY

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:36 AM

. . . . so who is this adversary(satan that has reason and intellegence and can hear and speak,and be in the presence of God? Thanks Rod

a) My Cyclic reasoning proves no literal fallen spirit angel beings.

b) ' ' ' nor demons

c) For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. (Psalm 5: 4) ASV

#Strong's concordance renders: 'sojourn': -

1a1) to sojourn, dwell for a time

1a2) to abide, stay, temporarily dwell

d) The Satan evil spirit being you currently believe in is supposed to thwart God's plans and disobey His commandments, but the Adversary (Satan) of Job is most obliging and obedient (Job 2: 7) which would be a blatant self contradiction and only expose its foolishmess and self contradicting behavior. - (If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? (Luke 11:18) KJV)

e) As with the Holy angel that acted as an Adversary to Balaam (Num. 22:24) KJV, such a Holy angel acting as an Adversary to Job would appear to closely fit the required criteria in most parts, true the actual identity of the Adversary is not specified, however it can not be an evil spirit being for the reasons already given. (a, b, c, d)

Thank you

composer:In no way could it be a holy angel of God........for this angel to say take your hand off of him and he will curse you,and to smite a righteous man with boils,is absolutly tell tale of evil rather then holy.

Rod



#66 composer

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 06:19 AM

composer:In no way could it be a holy angel of God........for this angel to say take your hand off of him and he will curse you,and to smite a righteous man with boils,is absolutly tell tale of evil rather then holy.

Rod

Smiting with boils isn't evil.

How else do you count your blessings of having a healthy body until you get sick and appreciate what it is like to be well.

That's not evil by any stretch.

#67 RODNEY

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 10:33 PM

composer:In no way could it be a holy angel of God........for this angel to say take your hand off of him and he will curse you,and to smite a righteous man with boils,is absolutly tell tale of evil rather then holy.

Rod

Smiting with boils isn't evil.

How else do you count your blessings of having a healthy body until you get sick and appreciate what it is like to be well.

That's not evil by any stretch.

composer:But telling God that job would curse him sure is isnt it?
definitly not a holy angel.........but a unholy angel for saying that wouldnt you think?



#68 composer

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:37 AM

composer:But telling God that job would curse him sure is isnt it?
definitly not a holy angel.........but a unholy angel for saying that wouldnt you think?

Come on RODNEY.

The ADVERSARY's purpose is to act as an ADVERSARY.

The angels remarks weren't ' evil ' by any stretch of the imagination.

God was teaching Job valuable lessons most likely via this Holy Angel ADVERSARY.

The angel (ADVERSARY) was merely saying " Look God, see how quickly Job may turn against you when you make things tough for him, he indicates he is all for you when things are going well for him, but when things are not going well, Job might blame and curse you. "

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:9 - 10) KJV

The ' Cyclic reasoning ' formula also decimates your current ' Fallen heavenly angel spirit being / demons theories.

Thank you

#69 RODNEY

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:44 AM

composer:But telling God that job would curse him sure is isnt it?
definitly not a holy angel.........but a unholy angel for saying that wouldnt you think?

Come on RODNEY.

The ADVERSARY's purpose is to act as an ADVERSARY.

The angels remarks weren't ' evil ' by any stretch of the imagination.

God was teaching Job valuable lessons most likely via this Holy Angel ADVERSARY.

The angel (ADVERSARY) was merely saying " Look God, see how quickly Job may turn against you when you make things tough for him, he indicates he is all for you when things are going well for him, but when things are not going well, Job might blame and curse you. "

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:9 - 10) KJV

The ' Cyclic reasoning ' formula also decimates your current ' Fallen heavenly angel spirit being / demons theories.

Thank you

Composer:So what your saying is God has adversaries in heaven with him,,,,,,,,interesting............are you not the one that said a divided house cant stand..........angels give glory to God and dont oppose him.............was the angel hard of hearing and didnt hear that his servent job was righteous..............your theology is seriously flawed......

Rod



#70 composer

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:41 AM

Composer:So what your saying is God has adversaries in heaven with him,,,,,,,,interesting............are you not the one that said a divided house cant stand..........angels give glory to God and dont oppose him.............was the angel hard of hearing and didnt hear that his servent job was righteous..............your theology is seriously flawed......

Rod

Spirit Angels never oppose God, they do his bidding.

When God asks they act as or temporarily become an Adversary towards humans, they are still doing God's bidding and are only Adversaries to the humans God wants to teach lessons.

God doesn't have a separate army of adversarial angels hanging around when God needs them. Any angel of Heaven can become an Adversary as required just as you or I can become an Adversary in some lesser way and thus also become a Satan = Adversary.

IF you were going to try to kill some one and I intervened to stop you, I would become your Adversary (Satan) because I OPPOSE your intentions. That makes me a GOODY SATAN.

If I was going to commit suicide and you intervened to prevent me YOU would become my Satan (Adversary) because you oppose my intent and again YOU would be a GOODY Satan.

As with the angel and Job. It is easy for any one of us ' claim ' we are righteous and love God however unless we are tested it is all just ' lip service '.

God via the angel, was proving Job was righteous and didn't just do God's bidding when things were great but turn against God when things went badly for him. Job was consistent under trial and adversity and the adversarial role of the heavenly obedient angel proved it.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 17 November 2008 - 05:45 AM.


#71 RODNEY

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 08:23 PM

Composer:So what your saying is God has adversaries in heaven with him,,,,,,,,interesting............are you not the one that said a divided house cant stand..........angels give glory to God and dont oppose him.............was the angel hard of hearing and didnt hear that his servent job was righteous..............your theology is seriously flawed......

Rod

Spirit Angels never oppose God, they do his bidding.

When God asks they act as or temporarily become an Adversary towards humans, they are still doing God's bidding and are only Adversaries to the humans God wants to teach lessons.

God doesn't have a separate army of adversarial angels hanging around when God needs them. Any angel of Heaven can become an Adversary as required just as you or I can become an Adversary in some lesser way and thus also become a Satan = Adversary.

IF you were going to try to kill some one and I intervened to stop you, I would become your Adversary (Satan) because I OPPOSE your intentions. That makes me a GOODY SATAN.

If I was going to commit suicide and you intervened to prevent me YOU would become my Satan (Adversary) because you oppose my intent and again YOU would be a GOODY Satan.

As with the angel and Job. It is easy for any one of us ' claim ' we are righteous and love God however unless we are tested it is all just ' lip service '.

God via the angel, was proving Job was righteous and didn't just do God's bidding when things were great but turn against God when things went badly for him. Job was consistent under trial and adversity and the adversarial role of the heavenly obedient angel proved it.

Thank you

composer:your theology is seriously flawed................
You believe Satan and the devil are one and the same right?.................matt4:1 and verses 5,8,11 calls him the devil...........verse 10 calls him satan...........
if one were to believe the Christadelphians, they claim that the word Satan “has been used in various ways which indicate that it is not ‘another name for the Devil,’ as some suggest” (The Truth About Lucifer, vol.41 no.6, p.11, n.d.).


Scripture describes Satan entering Judas the night of the Lord’s betrayal (John 13:27). If Satan was merely man’s own evil, then how does it come from the outside to the inner man?

if satan is mans own evil,how is it that satan told God that he was going to and fro through the earth.

he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

the earth is said to be his domain.2 cor4:4(god of this world)

hardly sounds like mans evil heart..............it because Satan is a real enity

we are not fighting mans heart,mind.........which is flesh and blood.................eph 4:12 says:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

did not God create all the host of heaven? He sure did.

Is a spirt flesh and blood?is a spirt host flesh and blood .........hardly not..............

satan and his demons are real

Thanks Rod


hardly sounding like mans evil heart

#72 Nickman

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:31 PM

composer:your theology is seriously flawed................
You believe Satan and the devil are one and the same right?.................matt4:1 and verses 5,8,11 calls him the devil...........verse 10 calls him satan...........
if one were to believe the Christadelphians, they claim that the word Satan “has been used in various ways which indicate that it is not ‘another name for the Devil,’ as some suggest” (The Truth About Lucifer, vol.41 no.6, p.11, n.d.).


Scripture describes Satan entering Judas the night of the Lord’s betrayal (John 13:27). If Satan was merely man’s own evil, then how does it come from the outside to the inner man?

if satan is mans own evil,how is it that satan told God that he was going to and fro through the earth.

he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

the earth is said to be his domain.2 cor4:4(god of this world)

hardly sounds like mans evil heart..............it because Satan is a real enity

we are not fighting mans heart,mind.........which is flesh and blood.................eph 4:12 says:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

did not God create all the host of heaven? He sure did.

Is a spirt flesh and blood?is a spirt host flesh and blood .........hardly not..............

satan and his demons are real

Thanks Rod


I think you are misunderstanding our view point. First satan means adversary and should have never made it into English bibles. Second the word can be used for anything not just the carnal mind, it can be used for a baby if it hinders someone. Their are many different satans (adversaries). We have Judas and Ananias both lusting over money one to betray Christ and the other to hold back part of the money aquired from selling personal property and lying about it. This should tell you something. Satan entered Ananias' heart and Judas'. They both lusted over money and one lied about it, the other falsely accused Christ before the Sanhedrin.


You wrote "he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour".

With this passage taken into context here is what you get.

2 Peter 5:5:8 Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion,14 is on the prowl looking for someone15 to devour. 5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering

Be sober, g3525 νήφω nēphō
be vigilant; g1127 γρηγορέω grēgoreō
because g3754 ὅτι hoti
your g5216 ὑμῶν hymōn
adversary g476 ἀντίδικος antidikos
the devil, g1228 διάβολος diabolos This means false accuser
as g5613 ὡς hōs
a roaring g5612 ὠρύομαι ōryomai
lion, g3023 λέων leōn
walketh about, g4043 περιπατέω peripateō
seeking g2212 ζητέω zēteō
whom g5101 τίς tis
he may devour: g2666 καταπίνω katapinō

The next verse helps us determine what definition is appropriate within the context.

5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering

The word highlighted world comes from the word Kosmos which means the entire world or inhabitants of men. What is being said then is the sinful nature is walking around not literally but figuratively seeking who he may devour. You should know just like I do that sin does this to everyone. This is why Peter wrote what he did.

This whole Chapter is about the carnal nature getting the best of us and how we need shepards to help us keep in line.

we are not fighting mans heart,mind.........which is flesh and blood.................eph 4:12 says:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


This says nothing about agels or demons. It is actually Eph 6:6:10 Finally, be strengthened in the Lord and in the strength of his power. 6:11 Clothe yourselves with the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the schemes21 of the devil. 6:12 For our struggle22 is not against flesh and blood,23 but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness,24 against the spiritual forces25 of evil in the heavens.26 6:13 For this reason, take up the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand your ground27 on the evil day, and having done everything, to stand. 6:14 Stand firm therefore, by fastening28 the belt of truth around your waist,29 by putting on the breastplate of righteousness, 6:15 by fitting your30 feet with the preparation that comes from the good news31 of peace,32 6:16 and in all of this,33 by taking up the shield34 of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation35 and the sword36 of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 6:18 With every prayer and petition, pray37 at all times in the Spirit, and to this end38 be alert, with all perseverance and requests for all the saints. 6:19 Pray39 for me also, that I may be given the message when I begin to speak40 – that I may confidently make known41 the mystery of the gospel, 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may be able to speak boldly as I ought to speak.

This is about the carnal mind as well as wicked rulers in high places.

From the Agora
Eph 6:11
Vv 11-17: Eph is in the same chronological group of Paul's epistles as Col, Phm, and Phi, called collectively "The Prison Epistles" because written during Paul's first Roman imprisonment (cp 2Ti 1:8: Paul's second imprisonment). Paul evidently arrived in Rome in the spring of 61. The Acts speaks of his living two whole years in his own hired house (Act 28:30), which would bring him to the spring of 63. He was prob released before the burning of Rome in 64. In Phi he was expecting such release (Phi 1:19-26), a hope to which he refers also in Phm 1:22. Eph, Col, and Phm were dispatched at the same time by the same messengers (Eph 6:21,22; Col 4:7-9; Phm 1:12,23,24). Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to suppose that, as Paul dictated these words, he had in front of him the very model for his description, in a fully-clothed and armored Roman soldier. Hence, "You see (these scrolls)? My 'sword' is mightier than your 'sword'!"

"When soldiers go into battle they make sure that they are protected against anything the enemy might throw against them and that they are also prepared to fight. It would be stupid to go into enemy territory without camouflage gear, flack jackets and ammunition, but sometimes as Christians we do exactly that as we battle against sin. Paul tells us that we need to put on the full armor of God.

"We need to wear the belt of truth around our waist. If truth makes up part of our armour and we are thoroughly familiar with the word of God we will instantly recognize all the lies and untruths that could make us fall.

"The breastplate of righteousness must be in place. We are not in and of ourselves righteous, but with our faith in the mercy of God and the sacrifice of Christ, our faith can be counted as righteousness and our trust in God will save us.

"Our feet should be fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. We need to be ready and willing to spread peace as far as we can -- not just peace, but the peace of God, the forgiveness of sins.

"Take up the shield of faith. Have faith in God and he will defend you. Trust that he will 'deliver us from evil,' as we pray in the Lord's prayer.

"Wear the helmet of salvation. We need to keep our minds protected from attack. Keep them centered on God and on his salvation. God is our salvation. He wants to give us the Kingdom and will never try us beyond what we are able to bear.

"Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. This is our most powerful weapon and it has the power to change people like we would never dream possible. Jesus overcame temptation by quoting the Word of God to give him strength to overcome. Let us get the Word inside us so that we can do it too. Soldiers of Christ, Arise, and put your armor on!" (MT).

SCHEMES: AV "wiles" (Gr "methodia"). Only other usage: Eph 4:14: "the cunning and craftiness of MEN in their deceitful SCHEMING". So the scheming of the "devil" = the scheming of "men".

Please read these they will help with context.
Eph 6:12
IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS: See Eph 1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10; Tit 3:1.

I pray that you may see this truth.
v/r
Nick
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#73 RODNEY

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:23 PM

composer:your theology is seriously flawed................
You believe Satan and the devil are one and the same right?.................matt4:1 and verses 5,8,11 calls him the devil...........verse 10 calls him satan...........
if one were to believe the Christadelphians, they claim that the word Satan “has been used in various ways which indicate that it is not ‘another name for the Devil,’ as some suggest” (The Truth About Lucifer, vol.41 no.6, p.11, n.d.).


Scripture describes Satan entering Judas the night of the Lord’s betrayal (John 13:27). If Satan was merely man’s own evil, then how does it come from the outside to the inner man?

if satan is mans own evil,how is it that satan told God that he was going to and fro through the earth.

he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

the earth is said to be his domain.2 cor4:4(god of this world)

hardly sounds like mans evil heart..............it because Satan is a real enity

we are not fighting mans heart,mind.........which is flesh and blood.................eph 4:12 says:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

did not God create all the host of heaven? He sure did.

Is a spirt flesh and blood?is a spirt host flesh and blood .........hardly not..............

satan and his demons are real

Thanks Rod


I think you are misunderstanding our view point. First satan means adversary and should have never made it into English bibles. Second the word can be used for anything not just the carnal mind, it can be used for a baby if it hinders someone. Their are many different satans (adversaries). We have Judas and Ananias both lusting over money one to betray Christ and the other to hold back part of the money aquired from selling personal property and lying about it. This should tell you something. Satan entered Ananias' heart and Judas'. They both lusted over money and one lied about it, the other falsely accused Christ before the Sanhedrin.


You wrote "he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour".

With this passage taken into context here is what you get.

2 Peter 5:5:8 Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion,14 is on the prowl looking for someone15 to devour. 5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering

Be sober, g3525 νήφω nēphō
be vigilant; g1127 γρηγορέω grēgoreō
because g3754 ὅτι hoti
your g5216 ὑμῶν hymōn
adversary g476 ἀντίδικος antidikos
the devil, g1228 διάβολος diabolos This means false accuser
as g5613 ὡς hōs
a roaring g5612 ὠρύομαι ōryomai
lion, g3023 λέων leōn
walketh about, g4043 περιπατέω peripateō
seeking g2212 ζητέω zēteō
whom g5101 τίς tis
he may devour: g2666 καταπίνω katapinō

The next verse helps us determine what definition is appropriate within the context.

5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering

The word highlighted world comes from the word Kosmos which means the entire world or inhabitants of men. What is being said then is the sinful nature is walking around not literally but figuratively seeking who he may devour. You should know just like I do that sin does this to everyone. This is why Peter wrote what he did.

This whole Chapter is about the carnal nature getting the best of us and how we need shepards to help us keep in line.

we are not fighting mans heart,mind.........which is flesh and blood.................eph 4:12 says:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


This says nothing about agels or demons. It is actually Eph 6:6:10 Finally, be strengthened in the Lord and in the strength of his power. 6:11 Clothe yourselves with the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the schemes21 of the devil. 6:12 For our struggle22 is not against flesh and blood,23 but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness,24 against the spiritual forces25 of evil in the heavens.26 6:13 For this reason, take up the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand your ground27 on the evil day, and having done everything, to stand. 6:14 Stand firm therefore, by fastening28 the belt of truth around your waist,29 by putting on the breastplate of righteousness, 6:15 by fitting your30 feet with the preparation that comes from the good news31 of peace,32 6:16 and in all of this,33 by taking up the shield34 of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation35 and the sword36 of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 6:18 With every prayer and petition, pray37 at all times in the Spirit, and to this end38 be alert, with all perseverance and requests for all the saints. 6:19 Pray39 for me also, that I may be given the message when I begin to speak40 – that I may confidently make known41 the mystery of the gospel, 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may be able to speak boldly as I ought to speak.

This is about the carnal mind as well as wicked rulers in high places.

From the Agora
Eph 6:11
Vv 11-17: Eph is in the same chronological group of Paul's epistles as Col, Phm, and Phi, called collectively "The Prison Epistles" because written during Paul's first Roman imprisonment (cp 2Ti 1:8: Paul's second imprisonment). Paul evidently arrived in Rome in the spring of 61. The Acts speaks of his living two whole years in his own hired house (Act 28:30), which would bring him to the spring of 63. He was prob released before the burning of Rome in 64. In Phi he was expecting such release (Phi 1:19-26), a hope to which he refers also in Phm 1:22. Eph, Col, and Phm were dispatched at the same time by the same messengers (Eph 6:21,22; Col 4:7-9; Phm 1:12,23,24). Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to suppose that, as Paul dictated these words, he had in front of him the very model for his description, in a fully-clothed and armored Roman soldier. Hence, "You see (these scrolls)? My 'sword' is mightier than your 'sword'!"

"When soldiers go into battle they make sure that they are protected against anything the enemy might throw against them and that they are also prepared to fight. It would be stupid to go into enemy territory without camouflage gear, flack jackets and ammunition, but sometimes as Christians we do exactly that as we battle against sin. Paul tells us that we need to put on the full armor of God.

"We need to wear the belt of truth around our waist. If truth makes up part of our armour and we are thoroughly familiar with the word of God we will instantly recognize all the lies and untruths that could make us fall.

"The breastplate of righteousness must be in place. We are not in and of ourselves righteous, but with our faith in the mercy of God and the sacrifice of Christ, our faith can be counted as righteousness and our trust in God will save us.

"Our feet should be fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. We need to be ready and willing to spread peace as far as we can -- not just peace, but the peace of God, the forgiveness of sins.

"Take up the shield of faith. Have faith in God and he will defend you. Trust that he will 'deliver us from evil,' as we pray in the Lord's prayer.

"Wear the helmet of salvation. We need to keep our minds protected from attack. Keep them centered on God and on his salvation. God is our salvation. He wants to give us the Kingdom and will never try us beyond what we are able to bear.

"Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. This is our most powerful weapon and it has the power to change people like we would never dream possible. Jesus overcame temptation by quoting the Word of God to give him strength to overcome. Let us get the Word inside us so that we can do it too. Soldiers of Christ, Arise, and put your armor on!" (MT).

SCHEMES: AV "wiles" (Gr "methodia"). Only other usage: Eph 4:14: "the cunning and craftiness of MEN in their deceitful SCHEMING". So the scheming of the "devil" = the scheming of "men".

Please read these they will help with context.
Eph 6:12
IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS: See Eph 1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10; Tit 3:1.

I pray that you may see this truth.
v/r
Nick

nick:Hope all is well with you .................

I think you are misunderstanding our view point. First satan means adversary and should have never made it into English bibles. Second the word can be used for anything not just the carnal mind, it can be used for a baby if it hinders someone. Their are many different satans (adversaries). We have Judas and Ananias both lusting over money one to betray Christ and the other to hold back part of the money aquired from selling personal property and lying about it. This should tell you something. Satan entered Ananias' heart and Judas'. They both lusted over money and one lied about it, the other falsely accused Christ before the Sanhedrin


Really doesnt matter if Satan is called Satan,Or devil,or serpent of old,or evil one........I am talking about the same enity.
judas and ananias aready had evil in there heart before the devil(satan) entered the heart.........my point is you say mans own heart is satan.........why would satan need to enter his heart if he was already there,that wouldnt make sense.........satan would enter satan.
judas already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered his heart.

You wrote "he is discribed like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour".

With this passage taken into context here is what you get.

2 Peter 5:5:8 Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion,14 is on the prowl looking for someone15 to devour. 5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering

Be sober, g3525 νήφω nēphō
be vigilant; g1127 γρηγορέω grēgoreō
because g3754 ὅτι hoti
your g5216 ὑμῶν hymōn
adversary g476 ἀντίδικος antidikos
the devil, g1228 διάβολος diabolos This means false accuser
as g5613 ὡς hōs
a roaring g5612 ὠρύομαι ōryomai
lion, g3023 λέων leōn
walketh about, g4043 περιπατέω peripateō
seeking g2212 ζητέω zēteō
whom g5101 τίς tis
he may devour: g2666 καταπίνω katapinō

The next verse helps us determine what definition is appropriate within the context.

5:9 Resist him,16 strong in your faith, because you know17 that your brothers and sisters18 throughout the world19 are enduring20 the same kinds of suffering


If mans heart is inheritly evil.......according to you mans heart is satan........why would the devil need to be raoming around trying to devour someone when that devilv is already inside him.

We all have to endure temtations .

This says nothing about agels or demons. It is actually Eph 6:6:10 Finally, be strengthened in the Lord and in the strength of his power. 6:11 Clothe yourselves with the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the schemes21 of the devil. 6:12 For our struggle22 is not against flesh and blood,23 but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness,24 against the spiritual forces25 of evil in the heavens.26 6:13 For this reason, take up the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand your ground27 on the evil day, and having done everything, to stand. 6:14 Stand firm therefore, by fastening28 the belt of truth around your waist,29 by putting on the breastplate of righteousness, 6:15 by fitting your30 feet with the preparation that comes from the good news31 of peace,32 6:16 and in all of this,33 by taking up the shield34 of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation35 and the sword36 of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 6:18 With every prayer and petition, pray37 at all times in the Spirit, and to this end38 be alert, with all perseverance and requests for all the saints. 6:19 Pray39 for me also, that I may be given the message when I begin to speak40 – that I may confidently make known41 the mystery of the gospel, 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may be able to speak boldly as I ought to speak.


sure it is it is speaking of evil spirtual(SPIRT) hosts.............are angels spirts,,,,,yes...........are angels host of heaven,,,,yes they are.

The devil ws cast to the earth with his angels rev 12.

we are in a spirtual(spirt) warfare.

The devil is said to be a He,him,god of this world,a deciever,false accusser(which he does night and day),he can speak,he has intellegence,he goes to and fro in the earth,lies,a murder,ectt.........does this sound like just you mind................It sounds like a real enemy to me.
your question to me
Rod



#74 composer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:01 AM

If mans heart is inheritly evil.......according to you mans heart is satan........why would the devil need to be raoming around trying to devour someone when that devilv is already inside him.

Jer. 17: 9 KJV proves the human heart (mind) is more deceitful than your Satan / Devil spirit being. You just admitted your Satan is made reduntant to humans who are more deceitful than it.

My Cyclic reasoning also proves your evil fallen spirit beings don't literally exist.

Temptation is all around us and we can easily choose it instead of doing God's Will so it is like a lion roaming around trying to devour any attempt to do Godly things.


We all have to endure temtations .

I am glad you acknowledge this, for clearly Jesus was tempted and God can never be tempted. (James 1:13) KJV

You just proved Jesus can't be God.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 19 November 2008 - 08:02 AM.


#75 RODNEY

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:27 PM

If mans heart is inheritly evil.......according to you mans heart is satan........why would the devil need to be raoming around trying to devour someone when that devilv is already inside him.

Jer. 17: 9 KJV proves the human heart (mind) is more deceitful than your Satan / Devil spirit being. You just admitted your Satan is made reduntant to humans who are more deceitful than it.

My Cyclic reasoning also proves your evil fallen spirit beings don't literally exist.

Temptation is all around us and we can easily choose it instead of doing God's Will so it is like a lion roaming around trying to devour any attempt to do Godly things.


We all have to endure temtations .

I am glad you acknowledge this, for clearly Jesus was tempted and God can never be tempted. (James 1:13) KJV

You just proved Jesus can't be God.

Thank you

composer:mans heart and mind is flesh and blood..........the bible says we are not dealing with that ,but wicked spirt hosts...............
You dont have to believe what God has to say if you dont want.......why do you think satan is refered to as a HE and not a it............and can speak,and can believe and trimble,

so if satan isnt real is michael who fought satan and his demons real?

who is this michael with HIS angels?
of course scriptural proof please.

I have already explained why jesus was tempted to sympathize with us,as the bible explains.

In Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” originally meaning “the shining one” and In the 3rd century A.D. the saying of Jesus: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18) was connected to Isaiah 14:12 the saying of Jesus: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18) was connected to Isaiah 14:12 and Lucifer was accepted as the name of Satan before his fall.


in isaiah lucifer fell in luke jesus witnessed that fall............hence jesus's preexistence3

Jesus is God..................God would know if Jesus was God wouldnt you think..............since he is called God,he is called eternal,everlasting,I am,first and last,alpha and omega,king of kings,and many many many more proves Jesus is god.......if you believes any of this is true,is any of the bible true.

thanks Rod



#76 Nickman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:58 PM

Rodney, I am doing great except we just lost our squadron basketball game tonight 44 to 48. We were ahead by 12 in the beginning. Makes me want to cry.

Really doesnt matter if Satan is called Satan,Or devil,or serpent of old,or evil one........I am talking about the same enity.
judas and ananias aready had evil in there heart before the devil(satan) entered the heart.........my point is you say mans own heart is satan.........why would satan need to enter his heart if he was already there,that wouldnt make sense.........satan would enter satan.
judas already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered his heart.


Actually iI am not saying mans own heart is satan I am saying mans own heart is his adversary. Out of the heart comes adultery, envy, lust, murder and the like. What comes out of man makes him unclean. The metaphor used here in these verses is that the adversary which is the desire in this case for money entered into the heart of Judas and Ananias. They didnt need some entity to possess them. If your satan possessed Judas then Jesus was unable to judge properly because he held Judas responsible completely.

Matt 26:24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."[a]

Jesus didnt say woe to satan because he possesses Judas. He blames Judas fully.

Satan means adversary plain and simple and you should have never seen this word in your English bible.


If mans heart is inheritly evil.......according to you mans heart is satan........why would the devil need to be raoming around trying to devour someone when that devilv is already inside him.

We all have to endure temtations .


Exactly and this desire of temptations roams like a lion seeking who he may devour. This is figurative language and not literal. There is no entity trying to get you to sin. We do that on our own because we are a fallen race. Your satan has no job. The word devil is used here as a personification of sin. Read the whole chapter and you will see it is about keeping yourself from temptation.

sure it is it is speaking of evil spirtual(SPIRT) hosts.............are angels spirts,,,,,yes...........are angels host of heaven,,,,yes they are.

The devil ws cast to the earth with his angels rev 12.

we are in a spirtual(spirt) warfare.

The devil is said to be a He,him,god of this world,a deciever,false accusser(which he does night and day),he can speak,he has intellegence,he goes to and fro in the earth,lies,a murder,ectt.........does this sound like just you mind................It sounds like a real enemy to me.
your question to me


First revelation 12 is POST Revelation 1:1 and more specifically POST 96 A.D. Not before Genesis. Second you need to provide evidence from scripture as I did if you are going to say "sure it is it is speaking of evil spirtual(SPIRT) hosts.............are angels spirts,,,,,yes...........are angels host of heaven,,,,yes they are." This is not good enough and holds zero water with me Rodney.

As far as being in spiritual warfare I agree but that is not to say with spiritual entities. The scripture makes it plain that mans enemy is Lust, pride, and the flesh. The word spirit means wind and breath and is used to describe anything that has an effect but cant be seen. Like unclean spirits. The word spirit shows that what is causing the uncleaness is undetectable. The uncleaness shows that it has a bad effect on the person. Alchoholism is an unclean spirit. Gambling is an unclean spirit. Lust over woman is an unclean spirit. Get the point?

For your last part of your post: Does the devil you believe in sleep? Does he stop to have a sandwich? Is he so hard pressed to cause people to sin that that is is only goal. Is he everywhere tempting me and also someone in China at the same time? It is easy to see this adversary is each individuals desires personified in scripture. They like to do that in the Bible and it throws alot of people off. Thats how this whole false satan doctrine got started.

I am not worried about some satan creature because he is not real. It has no hold on me and never did, but sin does and has been my adversary eversince my mind realized the words from God that said I am a sinner and need help. Gods word doesnt say that there is a behind the scenes tempter that is reeking havoc on humanity. It says the contrary that man is the originator of sin. The heart is where all sin starts

v/r
Nick

Edited by Nickman, 19 November 2008 - 09:01 PM.

If I had nine of my fingers missing I wouldn't type any slower.
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#77 RODNEY

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 09:20 PM

Rodney, I am doing great except we just lost our squadron basketball game tonight 44 to 48. We were ahead by 12 in the beginning. Makes me want to cry.

Really doesnt matter if Satan is called Satan,Or devil,or serpent of old,or evil one........I am talking about the same enity.
judas and ananias aready had evil in there heart before the devil(satan) entered the heart.........my point is you say mans own heart is satan.........why would satan need to enter his heart if he was already there,that wouldnt make sense.........satan would enter satan.
judas already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered his heart.


Actually iI am not saying mans own heart is satan I am saying mans own heart is his adversary. Out of the heart comes adultery, envy, lust, murder and the like. What comes out of man makes him unclean. The metaphor used here in these verses is that the adversary which is the desire in this case for money entered into the heart of Judas and Ananias. They didnt need some entity to possess them. If your satan possessed Judas then Jesus was unable to judge properly because he held Judas responsible completely.

Matt 26:24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."[a]

Jesus didnt say woe to satan because he possesses Judas. He blames Judas fully.

Satan means adversary plain and simple and you should have never seen this word in your English bible.


If mans heart is inheritly evil.......according to you mans heart is satan........why would the devil need to be raoming around trying to devour someone when that devilv is already inside him.

We all have to endure temtations .


Exactly and this desire of temptations roams like a lion seeking who he may devour. This is figurative language and not literal. There is no entity trying to get you to sin. We do that on our own because we are a fallen race. Your satan has no job. The word devil is used here as a personification of sin. Read the whole chapter and you will see it is about keeping yourself from temptation.

sure it is it is speaking of evil spirtual(SPIRT) hosts.............are angels spirts,,,,,yes...........are angels host of heaven,,,,yes they are.

The devil ws cast to the earth with his angels rev 12.

we are in a spirtual(spirt) warfare.

The devil is said to be a He,him,god of this world,a deciever,false accusser(which he does night and day),he can speak,he has intellegence,he goes to and fro in the earth,lies,a murder,ectt.........does this sound like just you mind................It sounds like a real enemy to me.
your question to me


First revelation 12 is POST Revelation 1:1 and more specifically POST 96 A.D. Not before Genesis. Second you need to provide evidence from scripture as I did if you are going to say "sure it is it is speaking of evil spirtual(SPIRT) hosts.............are angels spirts,,,,,yes...........are angels host of heaven,,,,yes they are." This is not good enough and holds zero water with me Rodney.

As far as being in spiritual warfare I agree but that is not to say with spiritual entities. The scripture makes it plain that mans enemy is Lust, pride, and the flesh. The word spirit means wind and breath and is used to describe anything that has an effect but cant be seen. Like unclean spirits. The word spirit shows that what is causing the uncleaness is undetectable. The uncleaness shows that it has a bad effect on the person. Alchoholism is an unclean spirit. Gambling is an unclean spirit. Lust over woman is an unclean spirit. Get the point?

For your last part of your post: Does the devil you believe in sleep? Does he stop to have a sandwich? Is he so hard pressed to cause people to sin that that is is only goal. Is he everywhere tempting me and also someone in China at the same time? It is easy to see this adversary is each individuals desires personified in scripture. They like to do that in the Bible and it throws alot of people off. Thats how this whole false satan doctrine got started.

I am not worried about some satan creature because he is not real. It has no hold on me and never did, but sin does and has been my adversary eversince my mind realized the words from God that said I am a sinner and need help. Gods word doesnt say that there is a behind the scenes tempter that is reeking havoc on humanity. It says the contrary that man is the originator of sin. The heart is where all sin starts

v/r
Nick

Nick:glad all is well,except the basketball game,if lifes problems were only as bad as losing a game,we would be in Good shape huh.

Sure he blamed Judas because it was judas,s fault..........as it was with adam and eve and aninias also.If we give heed to those things it is our fault,as with job if he cursed God it would have been his fault,but he didnt listen to the lies of the enemy(who is the father of lies)

Exactly and this desire of temptations roams like a lion seeking who he may devour. This is figurative language and not literal. There is no entity trying to get you to sin. We do that on our own because we are a fallen race. Your satan has no job. The word devil is used here as a personification of sin. Read the whole chapter and you will see it is about keeping yourself from temptation

I totally disagree with you,jesus warned peter that satan wants to sift you like wheat,that is why we are told to put on the armour of god to sheild us fromt the fiery darts of the enemy,that is why he goes about like a roaoring lion to devour someone.hell was mqde for satan and his demons not us.You dont thinkl satan tried to stop the redeemtion work of God by offering Jesus the kingdoms of the world.................does my sin offer me the kingdoms of the world.............HARDLY.
so are we talking about our sin inside us or the prince of this world as satan is discribed as,if he is the prince of the world he has the ability to hand over parts of his kingdom,sin doesnt have that athourity.

jesus came to destroy the works of the devil......so he does have a purpose........rev 20:3 says:and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
so his purpose is the decieve...........thats what he did with eve isnt it

eph6:12:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
you say gambling,thats lust of the flesh,going after women thats lust of the flesh,alcohol thats lusts of the flesh...............remember WE DONT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD AS THESE THINGS ARE............BUT AGAINST SPIRTUAL HOSTS OFWICKEDNESS,WHICH SPIRTUAL MEANS SPIRT,SUPERNATURAL................so it couldnt be of God because of wickedness.......so spirt hosts that are wicked as demons are.

please answer who michael iand his angels s that fights satan and his demons.

I am not worried about some satan creature because he is not real. It has no hold on me and never did, but sin does and has been my adversary eversince my mind realized the words from God that said I am a sinner and need help. Gods word doesnt say that there is a behind the scenes tempter that is reeking havoc on humanity. It says the contrary that man is the originator of sin. The heart is where all sin starts


beware nick matt 4:3 says:Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

1 thess 3:5:For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

so there is a tempter,notice the tempter came to him and didnt say was inside him..........how does a enity go from the ouside to the inside as in judas if supposedly the sin is already in him,he had already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered him.

as with job and satan speaking to God............wwhat was speaking to God..was it sin that was speaking.
scripture evidence only please.

thanks Rod



#78 composer

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:34 AM

Because the adversary (disobedience) is always in the mind of man, but until man decides to act upon that inclination it remains simply a potential to sin (disobey)

Do you walk around all day thinking of nothing but one thing or does your mind wander from, Hmm, what's for lunch, what's on TV, will I get to work on time etc. etc.

So too with say Judas and by way of explanation -

Peter said to Ananias, "Why hath Satan filled thine heart . . . ?" But the next verse explains: "Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? When an individual gives himself over to sin, it is said to be Satan (adversary) entering into his heart.

Thank you

#79 RODNEY

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:37 AM

Because the adversary (disobedience) is always in the mind of man, but until man decides to act upon that inclination it remains simply a potential to sin (disobey)

Do you walk around all day thinking of nothing but one thing or does your mind wander from, Hmm, what's for lunch, what's on TV, will I get to work on time etc. etc.

So too with say Judas and by way of explanation -

Peter said to Ananias, "Why hath Satan filled thine heart . . . ?" But the next verse explains: "Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? When an individual gives himself over to sin, it is said to be Satan (adversary) entering into his heart.

Thank you

As was discussed before the fault the blame falls on man,obviously eve was decieved..........what did satan fill eves or judas or ananias heart with .........deceiption

please answer,who was talking to God about job in job 1 ans 2

who was this satan and his angels that fought michael and his angels

who was jesus speaking to in the wilderness............please dont say it was his sinful nature...........because jesus was one with the father..........he wouldnt have used the word of God against his heart and mind........he was the EXACT representation of the father..........his heart would not have said I will give you all the kingdoms if you worship me(satan)..............like you said a divided house cant stand.....................jesus heart would have been divided against the will of God............and THAT WAS NOT THE CASE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,would that not have been a sin to even think of a thing.............jesus himself said even if you lust or murder in your heart you are guilty of it.

Thanks Rod



#80 composer

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 07:37 AM

Before you are capable of attempting the complexities of other Scriptures such as you asked, your first dilemma is overcoming the fact that you have NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings at all.

My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of yours.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

#81 composer

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:11 AM

. . . . please answer,who was talking to God about job in job 1 ans 2

who was this satan and his angels that fought michael and his angels

I shall deal with the simpler ones for now

who was jesus speaking to in the wilderness............please dont say it was his sinful nature...........because jesus was one with the father.....

Temptations in his mind. Sure he was One with the Father, they were united in the God of Jesus ' Divine purpose. -

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. {willing, remove: Gr. willing to remove} (Luke 22:42) KJV

All believers can share that same unity of purpose that Jesus shared with his God -

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17:22) KJV

.....he wouldnt have used the word of God against his heart and mind....

Of course he would. The Scriptures say exactly that - Put on the whole armour of God = God's Word. (Eph. 6:11, 13) KJV

....he was the EXACT representation of the father..........his heart would not have said I will give you all the kingdoms if you worship me(satan)..............like you said a divided house cant stand.....................jesus heart would have been divided against the will of God............and THAT WAS NOT THE CASE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,would that not have been a sin to even think of a thing.............jesus himself said even if you lust or murder in your heart you are guilty of it.

Thanks Rod

Jesus was tempted like every one else (Heb. 4:15) KJV but he never gave in to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV

Jesus didn't lust or murder in his heart. He would have nipped it in the bud as it occurred by asking his God for the strength to deal with it and by using the same armour we are all asked to use. (God's Word)

#82 RODNEY

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 05:54 AM

Before you are capable of attempting the complexities of other Scriptures such as you asked, your first dilemma is overcoming the fact that you have NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings at all.

My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of yours.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

Composer:When God said if you eat of the tree YOU will surely die...........Who was he speaking to?.............Man of course................he wasnt adressing angels
what is the purpose of giving the angels free will,but cant exersise that free will to chose God or not........that isnt free will at all.

judas gave in to the temptation,job didnt..............what does the devil use to TRY to tempt us the lust of the flesh and eyes and the pride of life,as with jesus............he parades things before us and hoping our heart will give in to that temptation.

reember jesus saying he can do NOTHING of his own..........he couldnt have those thoughs,for they are the fathers thoughts,and the fathers words,

thanks Rod



#83 composer

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 07:57 AM

Before you are capable of attempting the complexities of other Scriptures such as you asked, your first dilemma is overcoming the fact that you have NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings at all.

My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of yours.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

Composer:When God said if you eat of the tree YOU will surely die...........Who was he speaking to?.............Man of course................he wasnt adressing angels
what is the purpose of giving the angels free will,but cant exersise that free will to chose God or not........that isnt free will at all.

Because after having been found ' worthy ' to be come an immortal angel (Luke 20:35) KJV the Cyclic reasoning proves they exercised their Free Will to remain incorruptible and unable to sin ever again when they were given immortality. (Luke 20:36) KJV

judas gave in to the temptation,job didnt.......

Because each used their Free Will to follow their own carnal desires or God's desires. Judas chose the carnal whilst Job chose the Spiritual.

.......what does the devil use to TRY to tempt us the lust of the flesh and eyes and the pride of life,as with jesus............he parades things before us and hoping our heart will give in to that temptation.

My Cyclic reasoning proves you don't have a literal spirit devil being.

Of course temptation is all around and we don't have or need a devil spirit being to show them to us, they are there.

reember jesus saying he can do NOTHING of his own..........he couldnt have those thoughs,for they are the fathers thoughts,and the fathers words, thanks Rod

The Bible proves Jesus had his own Free Will thoughts to follow his own Will or his God's Will. (Luke 22:42) KJV

Jesus wasn't a zombie or android programmed to function. What Jesus was capable of doing himself was using his God given Free Will to make some choices, e.g. ' I'll have that for lunch, I'll go to the toilet, I'll bathe myself, I'll fast and pray today etc. and especially choose to either do his God's Will, or his own Self Will. We know that he could make this choice himself because Jesus said so -

" . . . . if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. " (Luke 22:42) KJV

IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV

Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

#84 Nickman

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:57 PM

Sure he blamed Judas because it was judas,s fault..........as it was with adam and eve and aninias also.If we give heed to those things it is our fault,as with job if he cursed God it would have been his fault,but he didnt listen to the lies of the enemy(who is the father of lies)

Your right it was only Judas's fault and no one elses. He wasnt tempted by anything but his own desires.

James 1: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

I totally disagree with you,jesus warned peter that satan wants to sift you like wheat,


Luk 22:31
SATAN: Cp v 3. Jewish authorities intent on rounding up all disciples. Cp Joh 18:8,9,17. (Cp usage in 1Pe 5:8.)

YOU: Greek is plural, sig all apostles. The authorities were seeking traitors among the 12, preferably more than one to be false witnesses.

22:31 “Simon,75 Simon, pay attention!76 Satan has demanded to have you all,77 to sift you like wheat,78
This is talking about the Sanhedrin who is the adversary (satan) in this case.


satan tried to stop the redeemtion work of God by offering Jesus the kingdoms of the world.................does my sin offer me the kingdoms of the world.............HARDLY.


If you had the spirit of God without measure it would. You would also be asked by your desires to make bread out of stones to satisfy your desire for food instead of work for it. You would also be asked to get the whole ministry over in a JIF and not go through with the cross by giving a public display that you are the son of God by jumping from the temple. Context my friend.

so are we talking about our sin inside us or the prince of this world as satan is discribed as,if he is the prince of the world he has the ability to hand over parts of his kingdom,sin doesnt have that athourity.


Satan is not real and cant hand anything over to anybody. He is also NOT the prince of this world. This is talking about sin Eph2:1 And although you were1 dead2 in your transgressions and sins, 2:2 in which3 you formerly lived4 according to this world’s present path,5 according to the ruler of the kingdom6 of the air, the ruler of7 the spirit8 that is now energizing9 the sons of disobedience,10 2:3 among whom11 all of us12 also13 formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath14 even as the rest…15

Sin is being spoken of. The spirit of disobedience is just what it says. It is not an entity.

jesus came to destroy the works of the devil......so he does have a purpose........rev 20:3 says:and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
so his purpose is the decieve...........thats what he did with eve isnt it



From the Agora
Rev 20:3
HE THREW HIM INTO THE ABYSS: "The only passage in the Bible with any sort of resemblance to the words of Rev 20 about Satan being shut up in the abyss is to be found in Isa 24:22,23. 'And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days, they shall be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.'

"This comes at the end of a vivid prophecy of divine judgement in the Last Days.

"If the two passages do actually describe the same thing, then here is further evidence that the Satanic rebellion of Rev 20 comes immediately after the beginning of the Millennium and not at its close" (WRev).

AND LOCKED AND SEALED IT OVER HIM: This implies that the ruling authority (Christ's government) will prohibit the manifestation of any political opposition. The seal of the government on the grave of the Lord (Mat 27:66) was designed to prohibit any opening of the sepulchre; the seven seals on the book referred to in Rev 5:1-3 made it impossible for any man to read the contents. The manifestation of power by Christ will demonstrate that he commands the forces of omnipotence, and will silence all those who would otherwise oppose him (Mic 7:16, Eze 39:11 mg).

ENDED: The word ("teleo") translated "expired," "finished," "fulfilled" (vv 3,5,7) may also carry the sense of "accomplished," "achieved," thus giving this key phrase the meaning: "when Christ's millennial kingdom has become fully established".

Examples of sw: (a) Luke 22:37: "This that is written must yet be accomplished in me." (b) Gal 5:16: "Walk ye in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." To read "finish" here is to make nonsense of the passage. © James 2:8: "If ye fulfil the royal law... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye shall do well." Again, the substitution of "finish" makes the meaning ludicrous. (d) Rom 2:27: "And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil (finish?) the law, judge thee who... dost transgress the law?" (e) Rth 3:18: "The man (Boaz) will not be in rest until he have finished (ie accomplished, achieved) the thing this day." (f) Isa 55:11: "My word... shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish (but not 'finish') that which I please." (g) Dan 4:30: "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built" -- here "achieved, fully established" are both appropriate; "finished" also is suitable in the sense of "finished building", but certainly not in the sense of "ended" (WRev).

HE (Satan) MUST BE SET FREE: The NT counterpart of the "loosing of a satan" in 1Ki 11:14: Hadad the Edomite, a human "adversary" to the Kingdom of God.

eph6:12:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
you say gambling,thats lust of the flesh,going after women thats lust of the flesh,alcohol thats lusts of the flesh...............remember WE DONT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD AS THESE THINGS ARE............BUT AGAINST SPIRTUAL HOSTS OFWICKEDNESS,WHICH SPIRTUAL MEANS SPIRT,SUPERNATURAL................so it couldnt be of God because of wickedness.......so spirt hosts that are wicked as demons are.


These are also unclean spirits. Look it up.

please answer who michael iand his angels s that fights satan and his demons.

This war did not take place in heaven. It actually took place in the Political heaven of the Roman Government. Constantine is represented by Michael and his angels are representing Christians. Constantine destroyed everything Diocletian had setup against Christians. Constantine ruled after Diocletian resigned and he defeated Maxentius and Licinius to the Throne. He published the Edict of Milan and gave christians back their possesisons. Read more:Lactantius' De Mortibus Persecutorum

beware nick matt 4:3 says:Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”


I am not worried about something that doesnt exist.

1 thess 3:5:For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.


Sin again personified.

so there is a tempter,notice the tempter came to him and didnt say was inside him..........how does a enity go from the ouside to the inside as in judas if supposedly the sin is already in him,he had already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered him.


Desires to sin come and go. In and out. Resist HIM and he will flee. Personification again.

as with job and satan speaking to God............wwhat was speaking to God..was it sin that was speaking.
scripture evidence only please.


Agora
Job 1:6
Vv 6-12: Is Job's righteousness a "commercial venture"?

ANGELS (mg: SONS OF GOD): "Benim Elohim". A term used of men in Gen 6:4; Psa 29:1; 89:6,7; Joh 1:12; 1Jo 3:1; Eph 1:5.

TO PRESENT THEMSELVES BEFORE THE LORD: Not necessarily in heaven, but rather in presence of God's representatives on earth: cp Deu 19:17; 2Ch 19:6.

SATAN: AV mg: "the adversary". "Satan" is "everyman", including, to some degree, the 3 friends, other men, and Job himself. (Cp the role of Bildad in Job 8:3-7.) "Satan" disappears when the 3 friends enter the story. Notice that "Satan" is not judged at the end, but the 3 friends are. See Lesson, Job's satan.


Job 1:7
GOING BACK AND FORTH IN IT: The other instances of same description, going "to and fro": 2Ch 16:9 (the eyes of the LORD = angels); Zec 1:10,11 (angels); Zec 4:10 (eyes of the LORD); Zec 6:7 (angels again).

Assuming Satan is a man, then this could mean: "I am a man of the world, a self-made man, a strong man, who has acquired wealth." (By impl, "Job is an unworldly man, whose God has taken care of him.") This is the voice of envy.

v/r
Nick
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#85 RODNEY

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 10:03 PM

Before you are capable of attempting the complexities of other Scriptures such as you asked, your first dilemma is overcoming the fact that you have NO literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings at all.

My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of yours.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

Composer:When God said if you eat of the tree YOU will surely die...........Who was he speaking to?.............Man of course................he wasnt adressing angels
what is the purpose of giving the angels free will,but cant exersise that free will to chose God or not........that isnt free will at all.

Because after having been found ' worthy ' to be come an immortal angel (Luke 20:35) KJV the Cyclic reasoning proves they exercised their Free Will to remain incorruptible and unable to sin ever again when they were given immortality. (Luke 20:36) KJV

judas gave in to the temptation,job didnt.......

Because each used their Free Will to follow their own carnal desires or God's desires. Judas chose the carnal whilst Job chose the Spiritual.

.......what does the devil use to TRY to tempt us the lust of the flesh and eyes and the pride of life,as with jesus............he parades things before us and hoping our heart will give in to that temptation.

My Cyclic reasoning proves you don't have a literal spirit devil being.

Of course temptation is all around and we don't have or need a devil spirit being to show them to us, they are there.

reember jesus saying he can do NOTHING of his own..........he couldnt have those thoughs,for they are the fathers thoughts,and the fathers words, thanks Rod

The Bible proves Jesus had his own Free Will thoughts to follow his own Will or his God's Will. (Luke 22:42) KJV

Jesus wasn't a zombie or android programmed to function. What Jesus was capable of doing himself was using his God given Free Will to make some choices, e.g. ' I'll have that for lunch, I'll go to the toilet, I'll bathe myself, I'll fast and pray today etc. and especially choose to either do his God's Will, or his own Self Will. We know that he could make this choice himself because Jesus said so -

" . . . . if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. " (Luke 22:42) KJV

IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV

Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Thank you

composer:whoohooo angels were once mortal.....please.........no scripture to back that up.....this is the scripture you used:

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

those that are counted worthy...are the ones that are resurrected...............sons of this age are the righteous men and woman that follow God ........not talking about angels.

you are saying angels are zombies and cant sin even though they have free wil............free will to do what?serve God or not serve God right?.................thete has always been a epic battle between Good and bad.

you are saying there are good spirts(angels) and dont think that is figurative.........but when the bible talks os bad spirts you think its figuritive..........you cant have it both way to fit what you ant it to fit.

Thank you

composer:whoohooo angels were once mortal.....please.........no scripture to back that up.....this is the scripture you used:

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

those that are counted worthy...are the ones that are resurrected...............sons of this age are the righteous men and woman that follow God ........not talking about angels.

you are saying angels are zombies and cant sin even though they have free wil............free will to do what?serve God or not serve God right?.................thete has always been a epic battle between Good and bad.

you are saying there are good spirts(angels) and dont think that is figurative.........but when the bible talks os bad spirts you think its figuritive..........you cant have it both way to fit what you ant it to fit.

Thank you



#86 RODNEY

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 10:14 PM

Sure he blamed Judas because it was judas,s fault..........as it was with adam and eve and aninias also.If we give heed to those things it is our fault,as with job if he cursed God it would have been his fault,but he didnt listen to the lies of the enemy(who is the father of lies)

Your right it was only Judas's fault and no one elses. He wasnt tempted by anything but his own desires.

James 1: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

I totally disagree with you,jesus warned peter that satan wants to sift you like wheat,


Luk 22:31
SATAN: Cp v 3. Jewish authorities intent on rounding up all disciples. Cp Joh 18:8,9,17. (Cp usage in 1Pe 5:8.)

YOU: Greek is plural, sig all apostles. The authorities were seeking traitors among the 12, preferably more than one to be false witnesses.

22:31 “Simon,75 Simon, pay attention!76 Satan has demanded to have you all,77 to sift you like wheat,78
This is talking about the Sanhedrin who is the adversary (satan) in this case.


satan tried to stop the redeemtion work of God by offering Jesus the kingdoms of the world.................does my sin offer me the kingdoms of the world.............HARDLY.


If you had the spirit of God without measure it would. You would also be asked by your desires to make bread out of stones to satisfy your desire for food instead of work for it. You would also be asked to get the whole ministry over in a JIF and not go through with the cross by giving a public display that you are the son of God by jumping from the temple. Context my friend.

so are we talking about our sin inside us or the prince of this world as satan is discribed as,if he is the prince of the world he has the ability to hand over parts of his kingdom,sin doesnt have that athourity.


Satan is not real and cant hand anything over to anybody. He is also NOT the prince of this world. This is talking about sin Eph2:1 And although you were1 dead2 in your transgressions and sins, 2:2 in which3 you formerly lived4 according to this world’s present path,5 according to the ruler of the kingdom6 of the air, the ruler of7 the spirit8 that is now energizing9 the sons of disobedience,10 2:3 among whom11 all of us12 also13 formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath14 even as the rest…15

Sin is being spoken of. The spirit of disobedience is just what it says. It is not an entity.

jesus came to destroy the works of the devil......so he does have a purpose........rev 20:3 says:and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
so his purpose is the decieve...........thats what he did with eve isnt it



From the Agora
Rev 20:3
HE THREW HIM INTO THE ABYSS: "The only passage in the Bible with any sort of resemblance to the words of Rev 20 about Satan being shut up in the abyss is to be found in Isa 24:22,23. 'And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days, they shall be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.'

"This comes at the end of a vivid prophecy of divine judgement in the Last Days.

"If the two passages do actually describe the same thing, then here is further evidence that the Satanic rebellion of Rev 20 comes immediately after the beginning of the Millennium and not at its close" (WRev).

AND LOCKED AND SEALED IT OVER HIM: This implies that the ruling authority (Christ's government) will prohibit the manifestation of any political opposition. The seal of the government on the grave of the Lord (Mat 27:66) was designed to prohibit any opening of the sepulchre; the seven seals on the book referred to in Rev 5:1-3 made it impossible for any man to read the contents. The manifestation of power by Christ will demonstrate that he commands the forces of omnipotence, and will silence all those who would otherwise oppose him (Mic 7:16, Eze 39:11 mg).

ENDED: The word ("teleo") translated "expired," "finished," "fulfilled" (vv 3,5,7) may also carry the sense of "accomplished," "achieved," thus giving this key phrase the meaning: "when Christ's millennial kingdom has become fully established".

Examples of sw: (a) Luke 22:37: "This that is written must yet be accomplished in me." (b) Gal 5:16: "Walk ye in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." To read "finish" here is to make nonsense of the passage. © James 2:8: "If ye fulfil the royal law... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye shall do well." Again, the substitution of "finish" makes the meaning ludicrous. (d) Rom 2:27: "And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil (finish?) the law, judge thee who... dost transgress the law?" (e) Rth 3:18: "The man (Boaz) will not be in rest until he have finished (ie accomplished, achieved) the thing this day." (f) Isa 55:11: "My word... shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish (but not 'finish') that which I please." (g) Dan 4:30: "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built" -- here "achieved, fully established" are both appropriate; "finished" also is suitable in the sense of "finished building", but certainly not in the sense of "ended" (WRev).

HE (Satan) MUST BE SET FREE: The NT counterpart of the "loosing of a satan" in 1Ki 11:14: Hadad the Edomite, a human "adversary" to the Kingdom of God.

eph6:12:For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
you say gambling,thats lust of the flesh,going after women thats lust of the flesh,alcohol thats lusts of the flesh...............remember WE DONT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD AS THESE THINGS ARE............BUT AGAINST SPIRTUAL HOSTS OFWICKEDNESS,WHICH SPIRTUAL MEANS SPIRT,SUPERNATURAL................so it couldnt be of God because of wickedness.......so spirt hosts that are wicked as demons are.


These are also unclean spirits. Look it up.

please answer who michael iand his angels s that fights satan and his demons.

This war did not take place in heaven. It actually took place in the Political heaven of the Roman Government. Constantine is represented by Michael and his angels are representing Christians. Constantine destroyed everything Diocletian had setup against Christians. Constantine ruled after Diocletian resigned and he defeated Maxentius and Licinius to the Throne. He published the Edict of Milan and gave christians back their possesisons. Read more:Lactantius' De Mortibus Persecutorum

beware nick matt 4:3 says:Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”


I am not worried about something that doesnt exist.

1 thess 3:5:For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.


Sin again personified.

so there is a tempter,notice the tempter came to him and didnt say was inside him..........how does a enity go from the ouside to the inside as in judas if supposedly the sin is already in him,he had already conspired to betray jesus before satan entered him.


Desires to sin come and go. In and out. Resist HIM and he will flee. Personification again.

as with job and satan speaking to God............wwhat was speaking to God..was it sin that was speaking.
scripture evidence only please.


Agora
Job 1:6
Vv 6-12: Is Job's righteousness a "commercial venture"?

ANGELS (mg: SONS OF GOD): "Benim Elohim". A term used of men in Gen 6:4; Psa 29:1; 89:6,7; Joh 1:12; 1Jo 3:1; Eph 1:5.

TO PRESENT THEMSELVES BEFORE THE LORD: Not necessarily in heaven, but rather in presence of God's representatives on earth: cp Deu 19:17; 2Ch 19:6.

SATAN: AV mg: "the adversary". "Satan" is "everyman", including, to some degree, the 3 friends, other men, and Job himself. (Cp the role of Bildad in Job 8:3-7.) "Satan" disappears when the 3 friends enter the story. Notice that "Satan" is not judged at the end, but the 3 friends are. See Lesson, Job's satan.


Job 1:7
GOING BACK AND FORTH IN IT: The other instances of same description, going "to and fro": 2Ch 16:9 (the eyes of the LORD = angels); Zec 1:10,11 (angels); Zec 4:10 (eyes of the LORD); Zec 6:7 (angels again).

Assuming Satan is a man, then this could mean: "I am a man of the world, a self-made man, a strong man, who has acquired wealth." (By impl, "Job is an unworldly man, whose God has taken care of him.") This is the voice of envy.

v/r
Nick

nick:your assumption is not biblical...........constatine is michael............satan drawing a third of the stars(angels)...........who was against constatine that had exactly 1/3 of michaels forces.

rev 12 says the male child(you say constatine was going to be killed at birth).....your biblical proof
rev 12 says to rule the NATIONS with a iron rod...........your biblical proof of that
rev 12constatine to be caught up to Gods throne...........your biblical proof of that.

I have shown bibcal proof with scripture to show Jesus did all these things.............you have not 1 time shown proof with scripture constitine did any of these things............your so called biblical theology is all hog wash......sorry for saying that.


so do you go by mans word or Gods.............

thanks Rod



#87 composer

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 10:58 PM

Your continual denial of the facts RODNEY does you no good service.

#A) My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of your evil spirit angel literal beings. -

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

That you can not legitimately refute so your claims are decimated.


#B) Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are again decimated.


#C) Thirdly, IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV


#D) Fourthly, Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are decimated for a fourth time.


composer:whoohooo angels were once mortal.....please.........no scripture to back that up.....this is the scripture you used:

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

NB: I highlight the relevant facts against you here -

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Proving God's consistent ' Probation before exultation '. i.e. the heavenly angels had to ' earn their incorruptible immortal status ' they weren't just manufactured like androids.

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, . . . . (Gen. 1:27 28) KJV

So in order to ' replenish = fill ' the earth, this provides evidence that a Pre-Adamic race literally existed from which the Heavenly angels were ' accounted worthy ' for their immortal and incorruptible angelic positions.

those that are counted worthy...are the ones that are resurrected...............sons of this age are the righteous men and woman that follow God ........not talking about angels.

. . . . for they are equal to the angels (Luke 24:36) KJV

you are saying angels are zombies and cant sin even though they have free wil............free will to do what?serve God or not serve God right?.........

No, please read again. Angels are not zombies, that's the crucial point, they freely choose to serve God willingly and not because God programmed them to do so.

........thete has always been a epic battle between Good and bad.

Yes and Jer. 17: 9 proves the human mind (heart) is ' above all else ' the Adversary / Enemy of God (Goodness)

you are saying there are good spirts(angels) and dont think that is figurative.........but when the bible talks os bad spirts you think its figuritive..........you cant have it both way to fit what you ant it to fit.

Thank you

Not at all. I proved (See #A - #D above) that you don't have any literal evil angel spirit beings.

The figurative use of ' angels ' refer to Literal mortal messengers (angelos (Grk.))

The figurative use of ' demons ' refer to Literal False gods blamed for causing diseases, ailments or even bringing good fortune.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 23 November 2008 - 05:12 AM.


#88 RODNEY

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 05:52 AM

Your continual denial of the facts RODNEY does you no good service.

#A) My Cyclic reasoning has decimated that concept of your evil spirit angel literal beings. -

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

That you can not legitimately refute so your claims are decimated.


#B) Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are again decimated.


#C) Thirdly, IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV


#D) Fourthly, Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are decimated for a fourth time.


composer:whoohooo angels were once mortal.....please.........no scripture to back that up.....this is the scripture you used:

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

NB: I highlight the relevant facts against you here -

luke:20:34-36: Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Proving God's consistent ' Probation before exultation '. i.e. the heavenly angels had to ' earn their incorruptible immortal status ' they weren't just manufactured like androids.

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, . . . . (Gen. 1:27 28) KJV

So in order to ' replenish = fill ' the earth, this provides evidence that a Pre-Adamic race literally existed from which the Heavenly angels were ' accounted worthy ' for their immortal and incorruptible angelic positions.

those that are counted worthy...are the ones that are resurrected...............sons of this age are the righteous men and woman that follow God ........not talking about angels.

. . . . for they are equal to the angels (Luke 24:36) KJV

you are saying angels are zombies and cant sin even though they have free wil............free will to do what?serve God or not serve God right?.........

No, please read again. Angels are not zombies, that's the crucial point, they freely choose to serve God willingly and not because God programmed them to do so.

........thete has always been a epic battle between Good and bad.

Yes and Jer. 17: 9 proves the human mind (heart) is ' above all else ' the Adversary / Enemy of God (Goodness)

you are saying there are good spirts(angels) and dont think that is figurative.........but when the bible talks os bad spirts you think its figuritive..........you cant have it both way to fit what you ant it to fit.

Thank you

Not at all. I proved (See #A - #D above) that you don't have any literal evil angel spirit beings.

The figurative use of ' angels ' refer to Literal mortal messengers (angelos (Grk.))

The figurative use of ' demons ' refer to Literal False gods blamed for causing diseases, ailments or even bringing good fortune.

Thank you

composer Once and for all here is the curse for sin: gen3:19:3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Do angels sweat?Do angels eat bread? absolutly not...............what does it sound like ,for dust thou art and dust shalt return...........what is man body made of?.....Dust............

Does this really apply to angels of God.............absolutly NOT!!!!

So stop with the For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV
spirts DONT DIE........MANS BODIES DO!!
It is applied to man..........not angelic spirts of God!

As the bible CLEARLY points out the angels did sin:1 peter 2:3-5 says: By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
its speaking that God isnt sparing those angels that sinned,so he is not going to spare false teachers

notice the distinction of false teachers and angels..............why did he separate the 2..........if supposedly those false teachers are evil angel messangers.

because they are totally 2 separte things.......

angels here are talking about fallen angels and false teachers are exactly what they are,false teachers

thanks Rod



#89 composer

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 08:09 AM

composer Once and for all here is the curse for sin: gen3:19:3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Do angels sweat?Do angels eat bread? absolutly not...............what does it sound like ,for dust thou art and dust shalt return...........what is man body made of?.....Dust............

Even the righteous died a literal death and except for Christ are still in their graves awaiting Judgment.

RE: Do heavenly angels eat BREAD: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. {comfort: Heb. stay} {are...: Heb. you have passed} 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead [it], and make cakes upon the hearth. {Make ready...: Heb. Hasten} 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave [it] unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. (Gen. 18:1 - 8) KJV

Gen. 19: 1 then informs us that two of the angels who had eaten the Bread & meat etc. with Abraham & his wife then went on to Sodom.

So heavenly spirit angels certainly did eat bread. (& meat & butter & Milk)


Does this really apply to angels of God.............absolutly NOT!!!!

So stop with the For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV
spirts DONT DIE........MANS BODIES DO!!
It is applied to man..........not angelic spirts of God!

The Bible still disagrees with you RODNEY. Further more -

Obedient mortals after the Judgment will be raised to immortality and receive the same incorruptible bodies of the heavenly angels -

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . . (Luke 20:36) KJV

You are correct that spirits don't die, so the Cyclic reasoning & Rom. 6:23 KJV applies perfectly and against your current theories.

Spirits can't die so spirits can't sin. (See: Cyclic reasoning)


As the bible CLEARLY points out the angels did sin:1 peter 2:3-5 says: By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
its speaking that God isnt sparing those angels that sinned,so he is not going to spare false teachers

notice the distinction of false teachers and angels..............why did he separate the 2..........if supposedly those false teachers are evil angel messangers.

because they are totally 2 separte things.......

IF your spirit beings are in chains of darkness awaiting Judgment then they can't also be out and about still being naughty.

The reference to the angels that sinned (2 Pet. 2:4 - 5) KJV is of course referring to human messengers that became corrupt.

Also my other points refute your claims -

#B) Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are again decimated.


#C) Thirdly, IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV


#D) Fourthly, Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are still decimated for a fourth time.

Thank you

#90 RODNEY

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:17 AM

composer Once and for all here is the curse for sin: gen3:19:3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Do angels sweat?Do angels eat bread? absolutly not...............what does it sound like ,for dust thou art and dust shalt return...........what is man body made of?.....Dust............

Even the righteous died a literal death and except for Christ are still in their graves awaiting Judgment.

RE: Do heavenly angels eat BREAD: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. {comfort: Heb. stay} {are...: Heb. you have passed} 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead [it], and make cakes upon the hearth. {Make ready...: Heb. Hasten} 7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave [it] unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. (Gen. 18:1 - 8) KJV

Gen. 19: 1 then informs us that two of the angels who had eaten the Bread & meat etc. with Abraham & his wife then went on to Sodom.

So heavenly spirit angels certainly did eat bread. (& meat & butter & Milk)


Does this really apply to angels of God.............absolutly NOT!!!!

So stop with the For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV
spirts DONT DIE........MANS BODIES DO!!
It is applied to man..........not angelic spirts of God!

The Bible still disagrees with you RODNEY. Further more -

Obedient mortals after the Judgment will be raised to immortality and receive the same incorruptible bodies of the heavenly angels -

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . . (Luke 20:36) KJV

You are correct that spirits don't die, so the Cyclic reasoning & Rom. 6:23 KJV applies perfectly and against your current theories.

Spirits can't die so spirits can't sin. (See: Cyclic reasoning)


As the bible CLEARLY points out the angels did sin:1 peter 2:3-5 says: By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
its speaking that God isnt sparing those angels that sinned,so he is not going to spare false teachers

notice the distinction of false teachers and angels..............why did he separate the 2..........if supposedly those false teachers are evil angel messangers.

because they are totally 2 separte things.......

IF your spirit beings are in chains of darkness awaiting Judgment then they can't also be out and about still being naughty.

The reference to the angels that sinned (2 Pet. 2:4 - 5) KJV is of course referring to human messengers that became corrupt.

Also my other points refute your claims -

#B) Secondly, the human heart (mind) is more deceitful and wicked than anything else / above all things (Jer. 17: 9) KJV, so again even IF your Satan etc. literally existed, man's deceitful and wicked mind (heart) makes it redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are again decimated.


#C) Thirdly, IF you still believe that Jesus had a face to face discussion with a wicked spirit angel being called the Devil or Satan, then we would ALL have to be tempted in exactly the same way -

. . . . but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] . . . . (Heb. 4:15) KJV

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation and why not, because it didn't happen and instead Jesus was tempted by all the same forms of temptation that are out there that we encounter ourselves, and as our example (1 Pet. 2:21) KJV showed us practically, that by submitting to his God, his God empowered him to overcome that temptation and never capitulate to it. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV


#D) Fourthly, Jer. 17: 9 also proves that mere mortals are more wicked and deceitful than any evil spirit being that can be conjured up by anything, especially by the human mind that creates such fantasies and as such, IF they did literally exist, the human mind makes their existance redundant and superfluous.

Your claims are still decimated for a fourth time.

Thank you

composer:

Even the righteous died a literal death and except for Christ are still in their graves awaiting Judgment

contrary from scriptures that say once unto die then judgement....or tto be absent from, the body is to be present with the Lord.
the body go back to the dust of the ground but the soul returns to God,."Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.


RE: Do heavenly angels eat BREAD: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him


Note it doesnt say angel or messanger or a representation of God...............BUT THE LORD HIMSELF............this was in no way a angel................

No one has seen the father at any time...........
the father is a consuming fire..........the son isnt,and can be seen and is called God,by God himself.

So heavenly spirit angels certainly did eat bread. (& meat & butter & Milk)

so even if this was a angel which at the begining says it wasnt.........it wouldnt have been in a heavenly spirt form as you falsely claim.This was in a form of MAN which certainly eats bread.

Spirits can't die so spirits can't sin. (See: Cyclic reasoning)

Show me composer where angels were cursed with death if they sin...............the bible says man was cursed with death because HE sinned.

rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So do angels have eternal life through Christ sacrifice as romans state........or is it refuring to man............MAN!

IF your spirit beings are in chains of darkness awaiting Judgment then they can't also be out and about still being naughty.

The reference to the angels that sinned (2 Pet. 2:4 - 5) KJV is of course referring to human messengers that became corrupt.

jude 6:And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

so some that didnt keep there proper domain,are the one chained.......not all of them............another instance of you taking things totally out of context.

It is not talking about human messangers but angels because human messangers are already born into sin,hence from birth there hearts are already wicked,..........what proper abode did these messangers leave?

Satan can intice the wicked heart of man by showing him things that intice the lust of the flesh and eyes and pride of life,he cant make you follow these things but can try to tempt you.

There are no confirmed records that any one literally has had such a personal conversation

who carried on a converation with God in job?

c/a theology decimated by the word of God again.
thanks Rod






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