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Rodney wants to know who is the father of lies?


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#31 composer

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 03:27 AM

I agree with all of that with the exception of the one time existence of fallen ones, lead by Lucifer.

See James Hastings (ed.), Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1963), p. 936. The Amplified Old Testament, (Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962), comments in a footnote to Isaiah 14 as follows: ". . . the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is completely erroneous. . . . Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called Lucifer. The misapplication of the name has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the false supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12 . . . It is the satanic king himself who is being addressed." p. 503. The J.W.'s, for example, have recognized the force of these arguments and now no longer in their official publications refer to Satan as "Lucifer", nor is Isaiah 14 cited in support of their belief that Satan is a fallen angel. (Extract taken from: Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)


Regardless of the fall of the evil ones, there would be free will in the world, the choice to do the will of God or forsake him. Nor do I believe in an uncontrollable sin curse brought on by Eves choice, sin is not inherited.

If one were to take identical twins, separate them at birth, one going to a bad environment and another a healthy environment, chances are they will develop differently. We are born into a shaky environment, one which would have been markedly different had the "prince of this world" not forsaken his trust.

Man was given dominion (rule) of this world. (Gen. 1:26) KJV

Man's internal carnal lusts and desires brings about his downfall just as with Adam. No need for a naughty spirit being. Man does it all by himself.

Political and Religious Power

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. (John 14:30) KJV

The "prince of this world," The Roman Emperor, had nothing against Jesus who had committed no crime and broken no state law. But the princes of this world, the political and religious authorities, were accustomed to persecute and even put to death any person who opposed them, regardless of any guilt or crime, just as King Herod did to John the Baptist.

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), p. 142.

My Cyclic reasoning has also decimated the literal notion of fallen spirit beings.


The most high does indeed rule in the kingdoms of men, he delegates authority. One of those celestial administrators betrayed us on an unimaginable scale. The closest comparison I can make would be the Pope going off the rails and becoming an atheist. There would be war in the Vatican, the Pope and his followers would battle the faithful Cardinals and their followers.

War in heaven (Rev. 12: 7) KJV alludes to something similar -

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabetical Appendix)

Where does the bible say the Beast became a serpent?

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.


No, the Bible says that Eve reasoned with a serpent. The bible also says that the serpent was a 'beast of the field' who was subtil. More subtil than all the OTHER beasts of the field. That's what the Bible says. It says nothing about "Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the serpent was already evil".

The crafty beast came and engaged Eve.

There is nothing to say the Serpent Creature was inherently evil. The Lord said it was intelligent but unfortunately, being a beast, it was carnal and not spiritual.

I believe the Serpent told the truth the way it perceived it (probably having seen angels partake of the forbidden tree and coming to no harm) hence ' thou shalt not surely die ' (not realising angels were immortal already)

Adam was never deceived by the Serpent regardless. His own carnal lusts betrayed him.

Thank you

#32 Colter

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 05:37 PM

The "prince of this world," The Roman Emperor, had nothing against Jesus who had committed no crime and broken no state law. But the princes of this world, the political and religious authorities, were accustomed to persecute and even put to death any person who opposed them, regardless of any guilt or crime, just as King Herod did to John the Baptist.


Lucifer, Satan, "The Prince" and Beelzebub ware all separate fallen sons of God, and in that order of authority.

The Jews used Pilate to kill Jesus, it was inevitable that they would reject the spiritual teaching about the spiritual kingdom. The Jews had hoped for an ill conceived material kingdom of Israel. "My kingdom is NOT of this world". "The kingdom of heaven IS within you".



See James Hastings (ed.), Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1963), p. 936. The Amplified Old Testament, (Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962), comments in a footnote to Isaiah 14 as follows: ". . . the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is completely erroneous. . . . Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called Lucifer. The misapplication of the name has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the false supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12 . . . It is the satanic king himself who is being addressed." p. 503. The J.W.'s, for example, have recognized the force of these arguments and now no longer in their official publications refer to Satan as "Lucifer", nor is Isaiah 14 cited in support of their belief that Satan is a fallen angel. (Extract taken from: Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)


* Satan isn't Lucifer, they were two different celestial beings.

* Isaiah was referencing a popular legend in his narrative referring to the fallen one as being responsible for the bondage of the Israelites under the rule of a Babylonian King. Jerome translated "morning star" as Lucifer. This legend of the evil one cast out of heaven was NOT created by Isaiah, he was referencing a common story which was already part of the universe of ideas in popular culture in that age. He tied the fallen devil with the oppression of a Babylonian king.



"As one of the brightest objects in the sky, Venus has been known since prehistoric times and as such has gained an entrenched position in human culture. It is described in Babylonian cuneiformic texts such as the Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa, which relates observations that possibly date from 1600 BC.[75]

The Babylonians named the planet Ishtar (Sumerian Inanna), the personification of womanhood, and goddess of love. The Ancient Egyptians believed Venus to be two separate bodies and knew the morning star as Tioumoutiri and the evening star as Ouaiti. Likewise believing Venus to be two bodies, the Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus), the "Bringer of Light" or Ἐωσφόρος, Eosphoros (Latinized Eosphorus), the "Bringer of Dawn". The evening star they called Hesperos (Latinized Hesperus) (Ἓσπερος, the "star of the evening"), but by Hellenistic times, they realized the two were the same planet. Hesperos would be translated into Latin as Vesper and Phosphoros as Lucifer ("Light Bearer"), a poetic term later used to refer to the fallen angel cast out of heaven.[b] The Romans would later name the planet in honor of their goddess of love, Venus, whereas the Greeks used the name of her Greek counterpart, Aphrodite (Phoenician Astarte).

To the Hebrews it was known as Noga ("shining"), Helel ("bright"), Ayeleth-ha-Shahar ("deer of the dawn") and Kohav-ha-'Erev ("star of the evening").

Venus was important to the Maya civilization, who developed a religious calendar based in part upon its motions, and held the motions of Venus to determine the propitious time for events such as war. They named it Noh Ek', the Great Star, and Xux Ek', the Wasp Star. The Maya were aware of the planet's synodic period, and could compute it to within a hundredth part of a day.[76]

The Maasai people named the planet Kileken, and have an oral tradition about it called The Orphan Boy.[77]

Venus is important in many Australian aboriginal cultures, such as that of the Yolngu people in Northern Australia. The Yolngu gather after sunset to await the rising of Venus, which they call Barnumbirr. As she approaches, in the early hours before dawn, she draws behind her a rope of light attached to the Earth, and along this rope, with the aid of a richly decorated "Morning Star Pole", the people are able to communicate with their dead loved ones, showing that they still love and remember them. Barnumbirr is also an important creator-spirit in the Dreaming, and "sang" much of the country into life."


War in heaven (Rev. 12: 7) KJV alludes to something similar -

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabetical Appendix)


Definition (3) is closest to the one outside of our range of vision or senses where the celestial beings, angels etc. work.


48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

50Jesus said, "You believe[k] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51He then added, "I tell you[l] the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

There is nothing to say the Serpent Creature was inherently evil. The Lord said it was intelligent but unfortunately, being a beast, it was carnal and not spiritual.

I believe the Serpent told the truth the way it perceived it (probably having seen angels partake of the forbidden tree and coming to no harm) hence ' thou shalt not surely die ' (not realising angels were immortal already)

Adam was never deceived by the Serpent regardless. His own carnal lusts betrayed him.



Chickensoup, this is where I get the idea from that the anti Satan crowd think that Gods plan for this world was thwarted by a talking animal. :plane:


........and then God starts talking to the animal and curses him! :ROFL:


Colter

Edited by Colter, 10 November 2008 - 05:42 PM.

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#33 Nickman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 07:18 PM

Colter,

you wrote

Lucifer, Satan, "The Prince" and Beelzebub ware all separate fallen sons of God, and in that order of authority.


First lucifer means son of the morning and this title is applied to the King of Babylon which is a real human being.

Isaiah 14:3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

Read the whole chapter of Isaiah 14 and you might want to let go of your belief that Lucifer is a fallen angel

Second Satan is a word that should have never made it into your English bible because it is not English it should have been translated "Adversary or Hinderer".

Third Beelzebub/ beelzebul is the evolved Philistine God of Ekron. He started out as LORD or Ba'al and by the time of the Roman occupancies of Mesopotamia he had changed to "Lord of things that Fly" Ba'alzebub/beelzebub. He was the chief Idol at this time which supposedly inflicted mankind and caused all of the other false Gods to do the same. You should research Greek mythology because your post makes you look a little naive to facts.

Lastly Composer's cyclic reasoning should help you understand that sin = death and if an angel sins it must die. But we learn in the Bible that angels cannot sin. Humans die after 80 years because of sin so how would angels live so long after commiting sin? Sin=death is a law just like gravity.

v/r
Nick
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#34 Colter

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 07:56 PM

Colter,

you wrote

Lucifer, Satan, "The Prince" and Beelzebub ware all separate fallen sons of God, and in that order of authority.


First lucifer means son of the morning and this title is applied to the King of Babylon which is a real human being.

Isaiah 14:3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

Read the whole chapter of Isaiah 14 and you might want to let go of your belief that Lucifer is a fallen angel

Second Satan is a word that should have never made it into your English bible because it is not English it should have been translated "Adversary or Hinderer".

Third Beelzebub/ beelzebul is the evolved Philistine God of Ekron. He started out as LORD or Ba'al and by the time of the Roman occupancies of Mesopotamia he had changed to "Lord of things that Fly" Ba'alzebub/beelzebub. He was the chief Idol at this time which supposedly inflicted mankind and caused all of the other false Gods to do the same. You should research Greek mythology because your post makes you look a little naive to facts.

Lastly Composer's cyclic reasoning should help you understand that sin = death and if an angel sins it must die. But we learn in the Bible that angels cannot sin. Humans die after 80 years because of sin so how would angels live so long after commiting sin? Sin=death is a law just like gravity.

v/r
Nick


None of the kings of Babylon were named "son of the morning" or "morning star "or son of the dawn". Isaiah was comparing the a Babylonian king to the devil depicted in the common legend.

Satan was an adversary and a hinderer, it was a proper name already in use before being adopted by the Israelites. But your free to make it go away using any form of rationalization that your heart desires.


Colter
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#35 Nickman

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:56 PM

None of the kings of Babylon were named "son of the morning" or "morning star "or son of the dawn". Isaiah was comparing the a Babylonian king to the devil depicted in the common legend.

Satan was an adversary and a hinderer, it was a proper name already in use before being adopted by the Israelites. But your free to make it go away using any form of rationalization that your heart desires.


You are the one that is ignoring the facts. Isaiah is not comparing anything. Satan started in the hebrew language, the language of the Israelites. It is never a proper name. I would like for you to show me where you think it is used as a proper name.

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#36 RODNEY

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 09:03 PM

I agree with all of that with the exception of the one time existence of fallen ones, lead by Lucifer.

See James Hastings (ed.), Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1963), p. 936. The Amplified Old Testament, (Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962), comments in a footnote to Isaiah 14 as follows: ". . . the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is completely erroneous. . . . Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called Lucifer. The misapplication of the name has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the false supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12 . . . It is the satanic king himself who is being addressed." p. 503. The J.W.'s, for example, have recognized the force of these arguments and now no longer in their official publications refer to Satan as "Lucifer", nor is Isaiah 14 cited in support of their belief that Satan is a fallen angel. (Extract taken from: Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)


Regardless of the fall of the evil ones, there would be free will in the world, the choice to do the will of God or forsake him. Nor do I believe in an uncontrollable sin curse brought on by Eves choice, sin is not inherited.

If one were to take identical twins, separate them at birth, one going to a bad environment and another a healthy environment, chances are they will develop differently. We are born into a shaky environment, one which would have been markedly different had the "prince of this world" not forsaken his trust.

Man was given dominion (rule) of this world. (Gen. 1:26) KJV

Man's internal carnal lusts and desires brings about his downfall just as with Adam. No need for a naughty spirit being. Man does it all by himself.

Political and Religious Power

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. (John 14:30) KJV

The "prince of this world," The Roman Emperor, had nothing against Jesus who had committed no crime and broken no state law. But the princes of this world, the political and religious authorities, were accustomed to persecute and even put to death any person who opposed them, regardless of any guilt or crime, just as King Herod did to John the Baptist.

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), p. 142.

My Cyclic reasoning has also decimated the literal notion of fallen spirit beings.


The most high does indeed rule in the kingdoms of men, he delegates authority. One of those celestial administrators betrayed us on an unimaginable scale. The closest comparison I can make would be the Pope going off the rails and becoming an atheist. There would be war in the Vatican, the Pope and his followers would battle the faithful Cardinals and their followers.

War in heaven (Rev. 12: 7) KJV alludes to something similar -

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabetical Appendix)

Where does the bible say the Beast became a serpent?

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.


No, the Bible says that Eve reasoned with a serpent. The bible also says that the serpent was a 'beast of the field' who was subtil. More subtil than all the OTHER beasts of the field. That's what the Bible says. It says nothing about "Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the serpent was already evil".

The crafty beast came and engaged Eve.

There is nothing to say the Serpent Creature was inherently evil. The Lord said it was intelligent but unfortunately, being a beast, it was carnal and not spiritual.

I believe the Serpent told the truth the way it perceived it (probably having seen angels partake of the forbidden tree and coming to no harm) hence ' thou shalt not surely die ' (not realising angels were immortal already)

Adam was never deceived by the Serpent regardless. His own carnal lusts betrayed him.

Thank you

composer: you totally reject what the bible says john 8:44 says:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

the devil is the father of lies not adam...........

and who is the serpent of old.

what does the bible say,satan ,the devil...........

so satan is the father of lie,he was a liar from the begining.

for you to say the serpent told the truth goes against what the bible says,that there is no TRUTH In HIM.

Rod



#37 Colter

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 10:30 PM

None of the kings of Babylon were named "son of the morning" or "morning star "or son of the dawn". Isaiah was comparing the a Babylonian king to the devil depicted in the common legend.

Satan was an adversary and a hinderer, it was a proper name already in use before being adopted by the Israelites. But your free to make it go away using any form of rationalization that your heart desires.


You are the one that is ignoring the facts. Isaiah is not comparing anything. Satan started in the hebrew language, the language of the Israelites. It is never a proper name. I would like for you to show me where you think it is used as a proper name.

v/r
Nick


Satan is always a proper name.

Corinthians 2 11:14

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

This is a direct lift from "The Life of Adam and Eve" which is a Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings.

Eve recounts to her sons and daughters the story of the Fall from her point of view:

"In the Garden, she is separated from Adam: she stays with the female animals and Adam with the male ones. The devil persuades the male snake to rebel against Adam and his wife: at the hour the angels go up to worship the Lord, Satan disguises himself as an angel and speaks to Eve using the mouth of the serpent. The serpent seduces Eve who swears to give the fruit to eat to Adam too. The serpent places in the fruit the poison of his wickedness, which is lust. When Eve eat it, she discovers to be naked: all the trees of the Garden had lost their leaves when she ate the fruit. Only a fig tree, the plant she ate of, has still leaves, and she hides her shame with fig leaves. Eve looks for Adam and deceives him: he also eats the forbidden fruit. (chapters 15-21)"

It is fascinating to search the non conical works which were sourced or directly quoted in the Bible.


Colter

Edited by Colter, 10 November 2008 - 10:43 PM.

We must give up all hope for a better past.

#38 composer

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:25 AM

Satan is always a proper name.

The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance. (p. 93 - How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
Sa^tan or Satan , ho, Satan, Hebr. word for adversary, opponent, . . . .

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)


Corinthians 2 11:14

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light; (2 Cor. 11:14) YLT

Can't see a naughty spirit being called Satan there?

This is a direct lift from "The Life of Adam and Eve" which is a Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings.

Eve recounts to her sons and daughters the story of the Fall from her point of view:

"In the Garden, she is separated from Adam: she stays with the female animals and Adam with the male ones. The devil persuades the male snake to rebel against Adam and his wife: at the hour the angels go up to worship the Lord, Satan disguises himself as an angel and speaks to Eve using the mouth of the serpent. The serpent seduces Eve who swears to give the fruit to eat to Adam too. The serpent places in the fruit the poison of his wickedness, which is lust. When Eve eat it, she discovers to be naked: all the trees of the Garden had lost their leaves when she ate the fruit. Only a fig tree, the plant she ate of, has still leaves, and she hides her shame with fig leaves. Eve looks for Adam and deceives him: he also eats the forbidden fruit. (chapters 15-21)"

It is fascinating to search the non conical works which were sourced or directly quoted in the Bible.


Colter

Yes Harry Potter Books are full of fascinating fantasy. Both are considered fiction.

#39 Paidion

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:37 AM

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)


Any of us can selectively quote a lexicon which supports our own position.

Here is part of the definition of "Satan" in the Greek lexicon of the Online Bible:

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ


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#40 composer

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:53 AM

I agree with all of that with the exception of the one time existence of fallen ones, lead by Lucifer.

See James Hastings (ed.), Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1963), p. 936. The Amplified Old Testament, (Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962), comments in a footnote to Isaiah 14 as follows: ". . . the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is completely erroneous. . . . Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called Lucifer. The misapplication of the name has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the false supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12 . . . It is the satanic king himself who is being addressed." p. 503. The J.W.'s, for example, have recognized the force of these arguments and now no longer in their official publications refer to Satan as "Lucifer", nor is Isaiah 14 cited in support of their belief that Satan is a fallen angel. (Extract taken from: Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)


Regardless of the fall of the evil ones, there would be free will in the world, the choice to do the will of God or forsake him. Nor do I believe in an uncontrollable sin curse brought on by Eves choice, sin is not inherited.

If one were to take identical twins, separate them at birth, one going to a bad environment and another a healthy environment, chances are they will develop differently. We are born into a shaky environment, one which would have been markedly different had the "prince of this world" not forsaken his trust.

Man was given dominion (rule) of this world. (Gen. 1:26) KJV

Man's internal carnal lusts and desires brings about his downfall just as with Adam. No need for a naughty spirit being. Man does it all by himself.

Political and Religious Power

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. (John 14:30) KJV

The "prince of this world," The Roman Emperor, had nothing against Jesus who had committed no crime and broken no state law. But the princes of this world, the political and religious authorities, were accustomed to persecute and even put to death any person who opposed them, regardless of any guilt or crime, just as King Herod did to John the Baptist.

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), p. 142.

My Cyclic reasoning has also decimated the literal notion of fallen spirit beings.


The most high does indeed rule in the kingdoms of men, he delegates authority. One of those celestial administrators betrayed us on an unimaginable scale. The closest comparison I can make would be the Pope going off the rails and becoming an atheist. There would be war in the Vatican, the Pope and his followers would battle the faithful Cardinals and their followers.

War in heaven (Rev. 12: 7) KJV alludes to something similar -

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God, Matt. x. 7 ; Luke ix. 2 ; and is Messiah's reign on earth. See Psa. lxxii (i.e. 72:) ; Dan. vii. 14, 27 ; Matt. xxv. 31 — 34. (EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Alphabetical Appendix)

Where does the bible say the Beast became a serpent?

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.


No, the Bible says that Eve reasoned with a serpent. The bible also says that the serpent was a 'beast of the field' who was subtil. More subtil than all the OTHER beasts of the field. That's what the Bible says. It says nothing about "Pre Adamic man has to do with the serpent because the serpent was already evil".

The crafty beast came and engaged Eve.

There is nothing to say the Serpent Creature was inherently evil. The Lord said it was intelligent but unfortunately, being a beast, it was carnal and not spiritual.

I believe the Serpent told the truth the way it perceived it (probably having seen angels partake of the forbidden tree and coming to no harm) hence ' thou shalt not surely die ' (not realising angels were immortal already)

Adam was never deceived by the Serpent regardless. His own carnal lusts betrayed him.

Thank you

composer: you totally reject what the bible says john 8:44 says:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

the devil is the father of lies not adam...........

and who is the serpent of old.

what does the bible say,satan ,the devil...........

so satan is the father of lie,he was a liar from the begining.

for you to say the serpent told the truth goes against what the bible says,that there is no TRUTH In HIM.

Rod

I proved Adam lied in the beginning therefore Adam is the Original Devil and the Father of lies.

I proved you were wrong about Lucifer.

My Cyclic reasoning proved and has also decimated the literal notion of fallen spirit beings.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 11 November 2008 - 01:55 AM.


#41 composer

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:08 AM

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)


Any of us can selectively quote a lexicon which supports our own position.

Here is part of the definition of "Satan" in the Greek lexicon of the Online Bible:

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

I didn't JUST quote a Lexicon I gave 3 separate proofs the Hebrew Term is NOT a proper name -

The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance. (p. 93 - How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
Sa^tan or Satan , ho, Satan, Hebr. word for adversary, opponent, . . . .

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)

Sure many refer to their alleged evil spirit being by an improper name, but they do so in defiance of its proper meaning.

My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being is a Scriptural fantasy.

Thank you

#42 RODNEY

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 05:33 AM

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)


Any of us can selectively quote a lexicon which supports our own position.

Here is part of the definition of "Satan" in the Greek lexicon of the Online Bible:

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

I didn't JUST quote a Lexicon I gave 3 separate proofs the Hebrew Term is NOT a proper name -

The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance. (p. 93 - How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
Sa^tan or Satan , ho, Satan, Hebr. word for adversary, opponent, . . . .

SATAN / DEVIL
Satan – an adversary or accuser. (a noun or adjective, not a proper name)
(sa'-tan) (saTan), adversary, from the verb saTan, to lie in wait (as adversary); Satan, Satanas, adversary, diabolos, Devil, adversary or accuser. (Carelinks ministries)

Sure many refer to their alleged evil spirit being by an improper name, but they do so in defiance of its proper meaning.

My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being is a Scriptural fantasy.

Thank you

composer:evil spirts are not a fantasy.........jesus spoke to demons(evil spirts)......mark 5:18 niv says:come out of this man you evil spirt........
Gods word says the DEMONS and not the man replied................the demons begged jesus send us among the pigs allow us to go into them.,............

so the demons spoke not the man.............a definite distinction between man and demons.

Rdo



#43 composer

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 06:27 AM

composer:evil spirts are not a fantasy.........jesus spoke to demons(evil spirts)......mark 5:18 niv says:come out of this man you evil spirt........
Gods word says the DEMONS and not the man replied................the demons begged jesus send us among the pigs allow us to go into them.,............

so the demons spoke not the man.............a definite distinction between man and demons.

Rdo

1. My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being (& literal demons) is a Scriptural fantasy.

"2. Unclean spirits", is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics. The Eastern text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored." The Aramaic word Akhidan -way means possessed with insanity or the power of the devil.

In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . .

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), pp. 57- 58.

3. In the olden days, medical terms as we know them today were unknown. Insanity and mental disorders had no names in these languages. So the people called them devils and demons. In the Gospel of Matthew they are called unclean spirits. (Matt. 10: 1) In the Gospel of Mark we read, "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, 'Thou art the Son of God'" (Mark 3:11, King James) The spirit has no body with which to fall down and worship. The insane or lunatics did it, and after they were healed they confessed that Jesus was the son of God. (Luke 10:20)

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 92 - 93.

4. Lunatics And Swine

So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. (Matt 8:31) KJV

Jesus and his disciples crossed from Galilee in Palestine to Gadara in Syria, which was on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. At the landing place they were met by two lunatics that came out of the cemetery. In the east, insane asylums are unknown. Crazy men roam about and live in cemeteries which are located at short distance from the town. . .

These crazy men saw a boat crossing from Galilee and when Jesus and his disciples disembarked they [the crazy men] immediately recognised a Jewish prophet. They had probably heard of Jesus and of his miraculous works as Gadara is separated from Galilee by only a few miles of water, so no doubt, the lunatics knew Jesus and his disciples. Also, in the east, when a man is accompanied by twelve men, he is either a religious teacher or a high official.

The Aramaic word al means attack and it also means enter. Men enter into each other when they wrestle or fight, and oxen enter into each other when they attack or chase each other. Assyrians say la al beh which literally means do not enter into him, that is, do not attack or bother him. These men were afflicted with insanity. In the east, when a man is insane it is said he is under the influence of the devil, and when he speaks, the devil speaks in him. It is often said, "He has turned into a devil", meaning, he has be come violent with insanity. We read that Satan entered into Judas but it was Judas and not Satan who bargained with the chief priests to betray Jesus (Luke 22:3 - 4) KJV In this case, the lunatics conversed with Jesus and not the devils who were supposed to be in them. The devils would not have asked permission to enter into swine and be drowned in the sea, for they had entered into men without permission.

These crazy men were Syrians whose people kept large swine herds which were an abomination to the Jews. As proof of their conversion to the Jewish faith and in appreciation for what Jesus had done for them, they wanted to destroy the swine. They realised Jesus was a great prophet and the Jewish God had more power than the Syrian gods whose prophets could not heal them. it is so today in the east. When people are converted to a different faith, they discontinue the practices considered unclean by the new faith. A Christian cannot become a Mohammedan and be admitted into fellowship unless he sells or kills his swine and repudiates all customs and practices which the Mohammedan faith declares unclen. . .

When the Gadarenes saw the lunatics were healed and had become converts to the Jewish faith and already some of the swine had been drowned, they were panic-stricken. They decided not to allow Jesus to preach in Gadara fearing his mission would result in many conversions which would destroy the swine business. . .

George M. Lamsa. Gospel Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 64 - 66.

5. My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being (& literal demons) is a Scriptural fantasy.

Your demons and Satan are a proven pagan fantasy.

Thank you

#44 IDF

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 08:14 AM

Rodney wrote:

who is the father of lies?"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

was this really the heart(mind) of man,,,,,,because adam had a heart(mind) that was perfect before he sinned...........this thing was a murder from the beginning.........adam was perfect in the beginning..........so it couldnt have been talking about mans heart...........because it wasnt a murder from the begining,and did adobe in the truth in the begining.

please dont use the lame excuse that satan didnt have a proper name so thats why he doesnt exist,all the angels are not called proper names in the bible,yet they exist.


The purpose of this thread is to answer "Who is the father of lies" for Rodney.



Who's your Daddy? :ROFL:
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#45 Colter

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 03:37 PM

Corinthians 2 11:14

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

and no wonder--for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light; (2 Cor. 11:14) YLT

Can't see a naughty spirit being called Satan there?


Jesus speaks to the cyclical reasoner:


25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Composer, Harry Potter has more truth in him then these ridiculous exercises in belligerent denial.
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#46 Nickman

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 07:30 PM

Corinthians 2 11:14

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.


If you will read the entire chapter (something you have proved that you never do) you will see Paul is talking about false teachers which are the adversary (satan) that masquerades as an angel of light. False preachers such as yourself seem like a light and fool others because of a lack of knowledge.

Nick
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#47 RODNEY

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 08:34 PM

composer:evil spirts are not a fantasy.........jesus spoke to demons(evil spirts)......mark 5:18 niv says:come out of this man you evil spirt........
Gods word says the DEMONS and not the man replied................the demons begged jesus send us among the pigs allow us to go into them.,............

so the demons spoke not the man.............a definite distinction between man and demons.

Rdo

1. My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being (& literal demons) is a Scriptural fantasy.

"2. Unclean spirits", is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics. The Eastern text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored." The Aramaic word Akhidan -way means possessed with insanity or the power of the devil.

In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . .

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), pp. 57- 58.

3. In the olden days, medical terms as we know them today were unknown. Insanity and mental disorders had no names in these languages. So the people called them devils and demons. In the Gospel of Matthew they are called unclean spirits. (Matt. 10: 1) In the Gospel of Mark we read, "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, 'Thou art the Son of God'" (Mark 3:11, King James) The spirit has no body with which to fall down and worship. The insane or lunatics did it, and after they were healed they confessed that Jesus was the son of God. (Luke 10:20)

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 92 - 93.

4. Lunatics And Swine

So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. (Matt 8:31) KJV

Jesus and his disciples crossed from Galilee in Palestine to Gadara in Syria, which was on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. At the landing place they were met by two lunatics that came out of the cemetery. In the east, insane asylums are unknown. Crazy men roam about and live in cemeteries which are located at short distance from the town. . .

These crazy men saw a boat crossing from Galilee and when Jesus and his disciples disembarked they [the crazy men] immediately recognised a Jewish prophet. They had probably heard of Jesus and of his miraculous works as Gadara is separated from Galilee by only a few miles of water, so no doubt, the lunatics knew Jesus and his disciples. Also, in the east, when a man is accompanied by twelve men, he is either a religious teacher or a high official.

The Aramaic word al means attack and it also means enter. Men enter into each other when they wrestle or fight, and oxen enter into each other when they attack or chase each other. Assyrians say la al beh which literally means do not enter into him, that is, do not attack or bother him. These men were afflicted with insanity. In the east, when a man is insane it is said he is under the influence of the devil, and when he speaks, the devil speaks in him. It is often said, "He has turned into a devil", meaning, he has be come violent with insanity. We read that Satan entered into Judas but it was Judas and not Satan who bargained with the chief priests to betray Jesus (Luke 22:3 - 4) KJV In this case, the lunatics conversed with Jesus and not the devils who were supposed to be in them. The devils would not have asked permission to enter into swine and be drowned in the sea, for they had entered into men without permission.

These crazy men were Syrians whose people kept large swine herds which were an abomination to the Jews. As proof of their conversion to the Jewish faith and in appreciation for what Jesus had done for them, they wanted to destroy the swine. They realised Jesus was a great prophet and the Jewish God had more power than the Syrian gods whose prophets could not heal them. it is so today in the east. When people are converted to a different faith, they discontinue the practices considered unclean by the new faith. A Christian cannot become a Mohammedan and be admitted into fellowship unless he sells or kills his swine and repudiates all customs and practices which the Mohammedan faith declares unclen. . .

When the Gadarenes saw the lunatics were healed and had become converts to the Jewish faith and already some of the swine had been drowned, they were panic-stricken. They decided not to allow Jesus to preach in Gadara fearing his mission would result in many conversions which would destroy the swine business. . .

George M. Lamsa. Gospel Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 64 - 66.

5. My Cyclic reasoning also proves this Satan spirit being (& literal demons) is a Scriptural fantasy.

Your demons and Satan are a proven pagan fantasy.

Thank you

composer: Illnesses and possession clearly differentiated:

a) Mt 4:24 "ill with various diseases & pains, demoniac, epileptics (lit: lunatics), paralytics"

b) Mt 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons"

c) Mt 8:16 "they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill"

d) Mk 1:32-34 "all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed"

e) Mt 10:1 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

f) Acts 8:7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.

g) Acts 19:11 And God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.

Only an intelligent powerful spirit being could do any of the following, illnesses could not:

a) Recognize Jesus as God’s son & Mt 8:29; Mk 1:23-24; 3:11; 5:7; Lk 4:41; 8:28; Acts 19:15

b) Recognize Paul as God’s servant : Acts 16:17

c) Demons are unclean spirits that can reason: Mt 12:43-45

d) Knew of coming judgment against them: Mt 8:29; Mk 1:24; 5:7; Lk 4:34; 8:28,31

e) "demons believe God and tremble" Jas 2:19 (gr: "tremble" lit: to bristle up hair)

f) If merely an illness, how do we account for the reaction of the heard of swine?: Mk 5:13

g) How could an illness exert supernatural power to break chains & shackles: Mk 5:4


The bible is very very clear demons are real and there not just some mental illness,or a wicked heart!!!!


Rod



#48 composer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 12:40 AM

The bible is very very clear demons are real and there not just some mental illness,or a wicked heart!!!!
Rod

Yes demons are real, real idols representing false gods and as yet undiagnosable diseases.

It is a well known fact that people on Crack Cocaine have superhuman strength for short periods of time and my friend is the person who has to try to restrain them when they are admitted to the Psychiatric hospital. He is a huge Maori Islander and a very strong man which is needed to control these crack addicts on a high. So having strength to break restraints is fairly common (e.g. chains)

Dr. Lamsa spoke the exact same language as Christ and he explains (which you ignored) that demons is purely a localised expression for those suffering various as yet undiagnosable diseases including the mentally challenged.

My Cyclic reasoning also decimates your fallen spirit being mentality and reveals it as a figment of your unscriptural imagination.

Demons do not claim to be a wicked heart. The wicked human heart is figuratively described as the ADVERSARY (Hebrew Satan)

You are confused as to the proper meanings of demons, you are confused as to the proper meaning of Satan (Adversary) and you are confused as to the proper meaning of ' The Devil ' (false accuser)

Thank you

#49 Nickman

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:04 AM

Rodney,

We are telling you the truth. I have studied this for a long time. Other delphs on this forum have studied it for a long time. We dont settle until we find the truth. We test the Bible. We dont just take its word for what it says. It must be proved like all things. If the Bible proved to be false I would toss it in the trash. The language must be compared to its original meanings and context. The words must be defined from its natural setting and vocabulary. History must be understood. Other religions surrounding the Bible must be taken into account to see if possibly they have an influence on the text. There is alot of hard work that we do to study the bible in its original context. We hear others opinions and interpretations and test them to see if they line up.

With that said, the Father of lies must be sin, I dont believe it refers to Adam because the problem is that Adam wasnt a murderer, Cain was. Your satan creature isnt even in the garden setting so that rules him out. Sin is the one that is the source of all evil and it is found in every human heart. We dont need a satan creature to arouse this natural man, we do that on our own without any help. The first creature to lie was the serpent but this was just a serpent and according to the Hebrew text was an animal. This animal used its natural reasoning because it was an observer. The Hebrew word is Nachash (nakash) it means 1; diligently observe, 1; divine, 2; enchanter, 1; enchantment, 4; indeed, 1; learn by experience. This is an animal with the ability to speak and reason within its mind. The conversation with Eve was just that in which the reasoning of the serpent caused Eve to disregard God's words of not to eat the fruit. The serpent wasnt trying to beguile her, he was talking from what he had observed. He possibly saw the angels eating of it and saw that they didnt die. That is just speculation from what we have in the account of the fall. The truth is that the serpent lied not intentionally and it caused Eve to fall. The lie came from not listening to God and listening to our own reason. This same nature showed its face in Adam, and Cain. Cain allowed this nature to get the best of him and he killed his brother. Through study I have come to an understanding that sin is the "Father of all lies". It tries to make us give in because it is like a cancer that eats away at the persons integrity and character. The word devil is a symbol and not a name here.
It means to strike through coming from its Greek root Dia-Bolos. Dia means through and Bolos means to strike. This sin does that to us if we let it.

v/r
Nick
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#50 RODNEY

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:54 PM

The bible is very very clear demons are real and there not just some mental illness,or a wicked heart!!!!
Rod

Yes demons are real, real idols representing false gods and as yet undiagnosable diseases.

It is a well known fact that people on Crack Cocaine have superhuman strength for short periods of time and my friend is the person who has to try to restrain them when they are admitted to the Psychiatric hospital. He is a huge Maori Islander and a very strong man which is needed to control these crack addicts on a high. So having strength to break restraints is fairly common (e.g. chains)

Dr. Lamsa spoke the exact same language as Christ and he explains (which you ignored) that demons is purely a localised expression for those suffering various as yet undiagnosable diseases including the mentally challenged.

My Cyclic reasoning also decimates your fallen spirit being mentality and reveals it as a figment of your unscriptural imagination.

Demons do not claim to be a wicked heart. The wicked human heart is figuratively described as the ADVERSARY (Hebrew Satan)

You are confused as to the proper meanings of demons, you are confused as to the proper meaning of Satan (Adversary) and you are confused as to the proper meaning of ' The Devil ' (false accuser)

Thank you

composer:

Dr. Lamsa spoke the exact same language as Christ and he explains (which you ignored) that demons is purely a localised expression for those suffering various as yet undiagnosable diseases including the mentally challenged.


How much more proof do you need,I just provided at least what like 15 scriptures proving illness and demon activity as totally being seperate.

my figuritive unscriptural imagination???
what do you think my last post was FULL OF SCRIPTURE,its your false teaching that is unscriptural.............because jesus would not teach false doctrine like demons going into pigs ,demons speaking,demons believe and tremble,if it were not true.......jesus is not a heretic

thanks Rod



#51 RODNEY

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:28 PM

Rodney,

We are telling you the truth. I have studied this for a long time. Other delphs on this forum have studied it for a long time. We dont settle until we find the truth. We test the Bible. We dont just take its word for what it says. It must be proved like all things. If the Bible proved to be false I would toss it in the trash. The language must be compared to its original meanings and context. The words must be defined from its natural setting and vocabulary. History must be understood. Other religions surrounding the Bible must be taken into account to see if possibly they have an influence on the text. There is alot of hard work that we do to study the bible in its original context. We hear others opinions and interpretations and test them to see if they line up.

With that said, the Father of lies must be sin, I dont believe it refers to Adam because the problem is that Adam wasnt a murderer, Cain was. Your satan creature isnt even in the garden setting so that rules him out. Sin is the one that is the source of all evil and it is found in every human heart. We dont need a satan creature to arouse this natural man, we do that on our own without any help. The first creature to lie was the serpent but this was just a serpent and according to the Hebrew text was an animal. This animal used its natural reasoning because it was an observer. The Hebrew word is Nachash (nakash) it means 1; diligently observe, 1; divine, 2; enchanter, 1; enchantment, 4; indeed, 1; learn by experience. This is an animal with the ability to speak and reason within its mind. The conversation with Eve was just that in which the reasoning of the serpent caused Eve to disregard God's words of not to eat the fruit. The serpent wasnt trying to beguile her, he was talking from what he had observed. He possibly saw the angels eating of it and saw that they didnt die. That is just speculation from what we have in the account of the fall. The truth is that the serpent lied not intentionally and it caused Eve to fall. The lie came from not listening to God and listening to our own reason. This same nature showed its face in Adam, and Cain. Cain allowed this nature to get the best of him and he killed his brother. Through study I have come to an understanding that sin is the "Father of all lies". It tries to make us give in because it is like a cancer that eats away at the persons integrity and character. The word devil is a symbol and not a name here.
It means to strike through coming from its Greek root Dia-Bolos. Dia means through and Bolos means to strike. This sin does that to us if we let it.

v/r
Nick

nick: I have studied for along time also..............demon activity and illnes is definitly separte as I have prove with numberous scripture"a) Mt 4:24 "ill with various diseases & pains, demoniac, epileptics (lit: lunatics), paralytics"

b) Mt 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons"

c) Mt 8:16 "they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill"

d) Mk 1:32-34 "all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed"

e) Mt 10:1 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

f) Acts 8:7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.

g) Acts 19:11 And God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.

Only an intelligent powerful spirit being could do any of the following, illnesses could not:

a) Recognize Jesus as God’s son & Mt 8:29; Mk 1:23-24; 3:11; 5:7; Lk 4:41; 8:28; Acts 19:15

b) Recognize Paul as God’s servant : Acts 16:17

c) Demons are unclean spirits that can reason: Mt 12:43-45

d) Knew of coming judgment against them: Mt 8:29; Mk 1:24; 5:7; Lk 4:34; 8:28,31

e) "demons believe God and tremble" Jas 2:19 (gr: "tremble" lit: to bristle up hair)

f) If merely an illness, how do we account for the reaction of the heard of swine?: Mk 5:13

g) How could an illness exert supernatural power to break chains & shackles: Mk 5:4



As far as the father of lies.....its nowhere found in scripture that sin is the father of lies.........

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

so the father of lies is the devil.


who is the devil:Rev 20:2:He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

He is the Dragon,satan and the serpent of old.

that serpent was in eden ...........ez28:12-19............this in no way could accually be the king of tyre a man.
1:he was in eden the garden of God.........notice in the garden,not just were it stood,which no man knowswhere it stood.......the serpent was in the garden.

2:v14:you were a annointed cherub............king tyre was not a annointed cherub who covers.but high ranking angels that covered the mercy seat.

3:v19: you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,till iniquity was found in you...........king tyre had a sin nature and was born into sin...........this definitly was not king tyre.

4:v 17: your heart was lifted up because of your beauty...............did not lucifer say I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.
I will also siton the mountain of the congregation.

v16 says he was cast out of the mountain of God..............

in NO WAY king Tyre again.

thanks Rod........hope you are doing Good.......



#52 Nickman

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:53 AM

Rodney lets look at Ezekiel first:

The opening line tells all. The figurative language is killing you bro.

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.

Then in 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.


13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.


Garden of Eden and Eden the Garden of God are two different things. One is in Eden and one is all of Eden which God calls his Garden. This is the mesapotamian region and modern day Iraq and Iran. In this region at one time east in Eden was a garden in which Adam and Eve were placed. They came out of the Garden of Eden and were still in Eden the Garden of God.

Genesis 2:8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. Hence garden of Eden.

I see the Taunt against old King Neb got you too.

Isaiah 14:3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!

12 How you have fallen from heaven, (lucifer)
O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,


Lucifer is old King Nebuchadnezzar

Figurative language makes you stumble Rodney.

As far as illnesses and demons being one and the same this is still true because not every illness was a demon to the first century mind. Some diseases were already publicly identified and cureable. Others were not such as lunatics which had a demon. The demon they were said to have was the Moon Goddess Artemis. This Goddess supposedly struck the victim during full moons. The reality is that full moons have an effect on water and this is also true inside the brain. Those afflicted with mental disorders generally have more problems during full moons. Pregnant women also go into labor more often on full moons due to the effects of gravity from the moon. My wife did with both our children.

I see you also used "unclean spirit". Spirit by definition is something that cant be seen but has an effect. It is not an entity or being. The wind is a spirit, breath is a spirit. The language used is right on track for the first century mind. They can not see what it is that is afflicting the person but they know it is bad. Hence "unclean spirit" and not a fallen angel or naughty demon as you proclaim. Demons are false god by definition and the belief of the times was that these idols would possess people and cause the unidentifiable illnesses of their day. Today we know better, alot better.

v/r
Nick
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#53 composer

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 01:41 AM

As Nickman explained again - Diseases they could recognise were called illnesses, ailments, diseases etc.

Disease or ailments they couldn't yet diagnose were deemed the result of demonic possession i.e. they didn't yet have a clue so ' some ' blamed mini gods.

Let us also examine just one of your quotes -

e) "demons believe God and tremble" Jas 2:19 (gr: "tremble" lit: to bristle up hair)

Hairy spirit beings, what next RODNEY?



Unclean Spirit

And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. (Mark 1:23 - 24) KJV

The Aramaic words rokha tamtha mean "the unclean spirit." a person who is unruly, insane, or has an evil inclination. In the East, any wrong inclination is considered unclean, whether it be a person, food, speech or teaching.

Medical terms were unknown in biblical days. The people who suffered mentally were considered possessed by an evil inclination, or mentally disturbed. The term "spirit" in Aramaic also means "inclination," "rheumatism," "temper." "pride," or a person."

When this insane man saw Jesus in the synagogue he could not control his anger toward him. He had heard people discussing Jesus, and many attacking him, considering him a dangerous man, an enemy of the Jewish religion. This was because in his discourses on religion, he ridiculed the scribes, Pharisees, and the Jewish rabbinical authorities.

The mentally disturbed man spoke out. "I know who you are, Holy One of God," was said sarcastically. Such remarks can only be determined by the facial expression and the gestures of the hands. In the East, an insane man can even rebuke a prince or a king without offending him, and not be punished for his bad conduct.

. . . Jesus rebuked the insanity and the man was restored.

George M. Lamsa. New Testament Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 58 - 59.

Thank you

Edited by composer, 13 November 2008 - 01:45 AM.


#54 RODNEY

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:55 PM

Rodney lets look at Ezekiel first:

The opening line tells all. The figurative language is killing you bro.

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.

Then in 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.


13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.


Garden of Eden and Eden the Garden of God are two different things. One is in Eden and one is all of Eden which God calls his Garden. This is the mesapotamian region and modern day Iraq and Iran. In this region at one time east in Eden was a garden in which Adam and Eve were placed. They came out of the Garden of Eden and were still in Eden the Garden of God.

Genesis 2:8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. Hence garden of Eden.

I see the Taunt against old King Neb got you too.

Isaiah 14:3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!

12 How you have fallen from heaven, (lucifer)
O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,


Lucifer is old King Nebuchadnezzar

Figurative language makes you stumble Rodney.

As far as illnesses and demons being one and the same this is still true because not every illness was a demon to the first century mind. Some diseases were already publicly identified and cureable. Others were not such as lunatics which had a demon. The demon they were said to have was the Moon Goddess Artemis. This Goddess supposedly struck the victim during full moons. The reality is that full moons have an effect on water and this is also true inside the brain. Those afflicted with mental disorders generally have more problems during full moons. Pregnant women also go into labor more often on full moons due to the effects of gravity from the moon. My wife did with both our children.

I see you also used "unclean spirit". Spirit by definition is something that cant be seen but has an effect. It is not an entity or being. The wind is a spirit, breath is a spirit. The language used is right on track for the first century mind. They can not see what it is that is afflicting the person but they know it is bad. Hence "unclean spirit" and not a fallen angel or naughty demon as you proclaim. Demons are false god by definition and the belief of the times was that these idols would possess people and cause the unidentifiable illnesses of their day. Today we know better, alot better.

v/r
Nick

nick:in verses 12-19of ezekiel couldnt possibly be tlking about a meer mortal man..................he was in eden the garden of God...........what you were saying about a difference between garden of eden and the garden of God,,,,,,,,,I noticed you gave no scripture to back your theology up......because there isnt any....................satan was in eden9that serpent of old0 not king tyre,no one knows exactly where the garden of eden was.........thats just silly.

next he was a annointed cherub...........king tyre wasnt NOT ANNOINTED but was king over a perverted and wicked city,far far from annointed.......show me biblically.
He wasnt a cherub..............nowhere is amoral man call a cherub,let alone a wicked king

he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him................first he was born into sin as the bible says,so there wasnt a time when iniquity wasnt found in king tyre.king tyre was borne of man and woman.......only jesus and adam was born of God,was without sin......notice what exodus says about the cherbium chapter 25:20 says:And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
gen3:24 says:So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

does this really sound like king tyre..........FAR FROM IT!!!!!


Matt 4:24 says:Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

notice the distinction from those being tormented and those with diseases..........and seperatly is demon possed................mental illness would fall under those with torments and dseases........reread my post a definite distinction between dieseased even with torments which would be mental illness.

this is for composer:ever hear when you fear the hair on the back of your neck ...........why would illnesses fear God..........demons that fear God for the judgement would fear God...........Mt 8:29; Mk 1:24; 5:7; Lk 4:34; 8:28,31


thanks Rod



#55 RODNEY

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:56 PM

Rodney lets look at Ezekiel first:

The opening line tells all. The figurative language is killing you bro.

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.

Then in 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.


13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.


Garden of Eden and Eden the Garden of God are two different things. One is in Eden and one is all of Eden which God calls his Garden. This is the mesapotamian region and modern day Iraq and Iran. In this region at one time east in Eden was a garden in which Adam and Eve were placed. They came out of the Garden of Eden and were still in Eden the Garden of God.

Genesis 2:8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. Hence garden of Eden.

I see the Taunt against old King Neb got you too.

Isaiah 14:3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!

12 How you have fallen from heaven, (lucifer)
O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,


Lucifer is old King Nebuchadnezzar

Figurative language makes you stumble Rodney.

As far as illnesses and demons being one and the same this is still true because not every illness was a demon to the first century mind. Some diseases were already publicly identified and cureable. Others were not such as lunatics which had a demon. The demon they were said to have was the Moon Goddess Artemis. This Goddess supposedly struck the victim during full moons. The reality is that full moons have an effect on water and this is also true inside the brain. Those afflicted with mental disorders generally have more problems during full moons. Pregnant women also go into labor more often on full moons due to the effects of gravity from the moon. My wife did with both our children.

I see you also used "unclean spirit". Spirit by definition is something that cant be seen but has an effect. It is not an entity or being. The wind is a spirit, breath is a spirit. The language used is right on track for the first century mind. They can not see what it is that is afflicting the person but they know it is bad. Hence "unclean spirit" and not a fallen angel or naughty demon as you proclaim. Demons are false god by definition and the belief of the times was that these idols would possess people and cause the unidentifiable illnesses of their day. Today we know better, alot better.

v/r
Nick

nick:in verses 12-19of ezekiel couldnt possibly be tlking about a meer mortal man..................he was in eden the garden of God...........what you were saying about a difference between garden of eden and the garden of God,,,,,,,,,I noticed you gave no scripture to back your theology up......because there isnt any....................satan was in eden9that serpent of old0 not king tyre,no one knows exactly where the garden of eden was.........thats just silly.

next he was a annointed cherub...........king tyre wasnt NOT ANNOINTED but was king over a perverted and wicked city,far far from annointed.......show me biblically.
He wasnt a cherub..............nowhere is amoral man call a cherub,let alone a wicked king

he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him................first he was born into sin as the bible says,so there wasnt a time when iniquity wasnt found in king tyre.king tyre was borne of man and woman.......only jesus and adam was born of God,was without sin......notice what exodus says about the cherbium chapter 25:20 says:And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
gen3:24 says:So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

does this really sound like king tyre..........FAR FROM IT!!!!!


Matt 4:24 says:Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

notice the distinction from those being tormented and those with diseases..........and seperatly is demon possed................mental illness would fall under those with torments and dseases........reread my post a definite distinction between dieseased even with torments which would be mental illness.

this is for composer:ever hear when you fear the hair on the back of your neck ...........why would illnesses fear God..........demons that fear God for the judgement would fear God...........Mt 8:29; Mk 1:24; 5:7; Lk 4:34; 8:28,31


thanks Rod



#56 Nickman

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 10:45 PM

nick:in verses 12-19of ezekiel couldnt possibly be tlking about a meer mortal man..................he was in eden the garden of God...........what you were saying about a difference between garden of eden and the garden of God,,,,,,,,,I noticed you gave no scripture to back your theology up......because there isnt any....................satan was in eden9that serpent of old0 not king tyre,no one knows exactly where the garden of eden was.........thats just silly.

next he was a annointed cherub...........king tyre wasnt NOT ANNOINTED but was king over a perverted and wicked city,far far from annointed.......show me biblically.
He wasnt a cherub..............nowhere is amoral man call a cherub,let alone a wicked king

he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him................first he was born into sin as the bible says,so there wasnt a time when iniquity wasnt found in king tyre.king tyre was borne of man and woman.......only jesus and adam was born of God,was without sin......notice what exodus says about the cherbium chapter 25:20 says:And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
gen3:24 says:So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

does this really sound like king tyre..........FAR FROM IT!!!!!


Read the whole chapter and you will see that you are reading this creature into the text. God is passing judgement on the King of Tyre and uses figurative language that is causing you to not understand it. The king of Tyre was an anointed cherub all Kings are anointed by God. the word cherub is used symbolically because cherubs and the King of Tyre have some parallel characteristics. Notice how well God speaks about him and then how he became corrupted.

Matt 4:24 says:Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

notice the distinction from those being tormented and those with diseases..........and seperatly is demon possed................mental illness would fall under those with torments and dseases........reread my post a definite distinction between dieseased even with torments which would be mental illness.


Again some were diagnosed to be common illnesses and others were understood to be demons. Not because demons are real. If you will study Greek mythology and their beliefs in the first century you will see that certain unexplainable diseases were attributed to false Gods(demons) like I have pointed out. Jesus cured real problems not fake idols that possessed people.

Watch how Paul calls demons idols in Corinthians. He also says they have no existence.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul explains why Christians should have nothing to do with idol worship or believing in such things. In Bible times people believed demons to be little gods who could be worshipped to stop problems coming into their lives. They therefore made models of demons, which were the same as idols, and worshipped them. This explains why Paul uses the words "demon" and "idol" interchangeably in his letter:-

"The things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with demons...if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake..." (1 Cor.10:20,28). So idols and demons are effectively the same. Notice how Paul says they sacrificed "to demons (idols) and not to God" - the demons were not God, and as there is only one God, it follows that demons have no real power at all, they are not gods. The point is really driven home in 1 Cor.8:4:-

"As concerning ...those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol (equivalent to a demon) is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one". An idol, or a demon, has no existence at all. There is only one true God, or power, in the world. Paul goes on (vs.5,6):-

"For though there be that are called gods...(as there be gods many and lords many, [just as people believe in many types of demon today - one demon causing you to lose your job, another causing your wife to leave you, etc.]) But to us (the true believers) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things (both good and bad, as we have seen from the earlier references)".

Further proof that people in New Testament times believed demons to be idols or 'gods' is found in Acts 17:16-18; this describes how Paul preached in Athens, which was a "city wholly given to idolatry", therefore worshipping many different idols. After hearing Paul preach the Gospel, the people said, "He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange (i.e. new) gods (demons): because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection". So the people thought that "Jesus" and "the resurrection" were new demons or idols that were being explained to them. If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see how Paul goes on to teach the truth to these people, and in v. 22 he says, "Ye are too superstitious" (literally: devoted to demon worship) and he explains how God is not present in their demons, or idols. Remember that God is the only source of power. If He is not in demons, then demons do not have any power because there is no other source of power in this universe - i.e. they do not exist.

Check this out at http://www.christade...0603demons.html

v/r
Nick
If I had nine of my fingers missing I wouldn't type any slower.
-Mitch Hedberg

#57 composer

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 11:26 PM

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Thank you

#58 RODNEY

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 04:28 PM

nick:in verses 12-19of ezekiel couldnt possibly be tlking about a meer mortal man..................he was in eden the garden of God...........what you were saying about a difference between garden of eden and the garden of God,,,,,,,,,I noticed you gave no scripture to back your theology up......because there isnt any....................satan was in eden9that serpent of old0 not king tyre,no one knows exactly where the garden of eden was.........thats just silly.

next he was a annointed cherub...........king tyre wasnt NOT ANNOINTED but was king over a perverted and wicked city,far far from annointed.......show me biblically.
He wasnt a cherub..............nowhere is amoral man call a cherub,let alone a wicked king

he was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him................first he was born into sin as the bible says,so there wasnt a time when iniquity wasnt found in king tyre.king tyre was borne of man and woman.......only jesus and adam was born of God,was without sin......notice what exodus says about the cherbium chapter 25:20 says:And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
gen3:24 says:So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

does this really sound like king tyre..........FAR FROM IT!!!!!


Read the whole chapter and you will see that you are reading this creature into the text. God is passing judgement on the King of Tyre and uses figurative language that is causing you to not understand it. The king of Tyre was an anointed cherub all Kings are anointed by God. the word cherub is used symbolically because cherubs and the King of Tyre have some parallel characteristics. Notice how well God speaks about him and then how he became corrupted.

Matt 4:24 says:Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

notice the distinction from those being tormented and those with diseases..........and seperatly is demon possed................mental illness would fall under those with torments and dseases........reread my post a definite distinction between dieseased even with torments which would be mental illness.


Again some were diagnosed to be common illnesses and others were understood to be demons. Not because demons are real. If you will study Greek mythology and their beliefs in the first century you will see that certain unexplainable diseases were attributed to false Gods(demons) like I have pointed out. Jesus cured real problems not fake idols that possessed people.

Watch how Paul calls demons idols in Corinthians. He also says they have no existence.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul explains why Christians should have nothing to do with idol worship or believing in such things. In Bible times people believed demons to be little gods who could be worshipped to stop problems coming into their lives. They therefore made models of demons, which were the same as idols, and worshipped them. This explains why Paul uses the words "demon" and "idol" interchangeably in his letter:-

"The things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with demons...if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake..." (1 Cor.10:20,28). So idols and demons are effectively the same. Notice how Paul says they sacrificed "to demons (idols) and not to God" - the demons were not God, and as there is only one God, it follows that demons have no real power at all, they are not gods. The point is really driven home in 1 Cor.8:4:-

"As concerning ...those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol (equivalent to a demon) is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one". An idol, or a demon, has no existence at all. There is only one true God, or power, in the world. Paul goes on (vs.5,6):-

"For though there be that are called gods...(as there be gods many and lords many, [just as people believe in many types of demon today - one demon causing you to lose your job, another causing your wife to leave you, etc.]) But to us (the true believers) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things (both good and bad, as we have seen from the earlier references)".

Further proof that people in New Testament times believed demons to be idols or 'gods' is found in Acts 17:16-18; this describes how Paul preached in Athens, which was a "city wholly given to idolatry", therefore worshipping many different idols. After hearing Paul preach the Gospel, the people said, "He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange (i.e. new) gods (demons): because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection". So the people thought that "Jesus" and "the resurrection" were new demons or idols that were being explained to them. If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see how Paul goes on to teach the truth to these people, and in v. 22 he says, "Ye are too superstitious" (literally: devoted to demon worship) and he explains how God is not present in their demons, or idols. Remember that God is the only source of power. If He is not in demons, then demons do not have any power because there is no other source of power in this universe - i.e. they do not exist.

Check this out at http://www.christade...0603demons.html

v/r
Nick

nick:You are saying some of the text is figuritive and some symbolic..............so when this person is called king tyre it could be symbolic .

when was this enuity perfect before iniquity was found in him............scripture for proof.
how many times are people called cherubs in the buble?
your proof of king tyre accually stood on where eden was? since no one knows?
or is it all speculation?

do Idols speak? demons spoke many many times...........even conversing with God himself in job,.................thanks Rod



#59 RODNEY

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 04:48 PM

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT God's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to God at ALL times, without exception

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

Thank you

composer:You are correct that spirts dont die.......God was addressing man when he was cursed to die for sinning,why because man has a body that can die........spirts dont have a fleshly body,thats is why jude 6 says:And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day

these wicked angel spirts are chained waiting for judgement...........this isnt man that is speaking of but angels.

2 peter 2:4 says:For if God did not spare the ANGELS who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

I PETER 3:19 . . . He went and preached to the SPIRTS in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water

2 cor 4:4 says:whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. notice the distinction between man and his mind and the god of this age SATAN..............

thanks Rod



#60 Nickman

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:10 PM

Rodney Wrote:

nick:You are saying some of the text is figuritive and some symbolic..............so when this person is called king tyre it could be symbolic .

when was this enuity perfect before iniquity was found in him............scripture for proof.
how many times are people called cherubs in the buble?
your proof of king tyre accually stood on where eden was? since no one knows?
or is it all speculation?

do Idols speak? demons spoke many many times...........even conversing with God himself in job,.................thanks Rod



There is figurative language and it easy to see when it is speaking figurative. As in calling a man a cherub. The king of Tyre was perfect in his ways until he started reigning in unrighteousness. For the sake of not double posting I will refrain from posting the same chapter in Isaiah again. Reda it Rodney it is talking about the King of Tyre who is a man as it tells you right off the bat and certain figurative language is used to describe him.

As far as proof that the King of Tyre was in Eden is easy look up Tyre and its location on the Map and you will see it is within Eden or (mesopotamia).

Eden is described of its location in Genesis. There are four rivers you can use to track the exact location because it is within them.

The idols or demons never spoke if you will read the passages again. The person that was afflicted spoke.
No one ever saw a demon either. The person afflicted is always the one speacking or acting which should tell you that these people had real problems like Schizophrenia.

v/r
Nick
If I had nine of my fingers missing I wouldn't type any slower.
-Mitch Hedberg




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