96 replies to this topic

[Hawleyluyah]

Richie, on Apr 13 2009, 07:50 AM, said:

But to the English ear, for example, "Yahweh" is meaningless.

I would not say meaningless to the English ear, but meaningless to most English ears.
But this in itself speaks volumes, it's all part of the great falling away.

Quote

So what is the point of referring to God using that term?

Let's not lose sight on the fact that it's not a term, but in fact the Name of the Father

Quote

There's nothing to stop you of course but in the Greek NT both Jesus and the Apostles chose to refer to God as kurious rather than transliterating Yahweh. Why? Because they were speaking a different language. Today Lord would suffice or you might want to say "He will be". Why? Because we speak English and God wants us to understand him, not speak about him in a mystical way.

So now I must ask, why is it mystical to call Him by name?
Is it mystical to call Barack Hussein Obama by his name?
Or do you think he might find it somewhat offensive to be called "Blessed Handsome He's crooked"?
Here are some NEWS LINKS Americans read stories like this everyday and never think twice about all the non English names they encounter.
A name has little to do with the country your in, but all to do with what identifies you.
This is one reason the trinity doctrine was able to gain so much ground among the uneducated, you take away the name that identifies the Father, and replace it with lord then proceed to call His Messiah lord, and before you know it the Messiah is God, why? Because scripture says "I am the LORD: that is my name............. Isa 42:8


Let me know if this answers your questions, if not I'll try again.
May Yahweh bless.

[Hawleyluyah]

Richie, on Apr 13 2009, 07:52 AM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 04:43 AM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisraʼĕl, Yahweh Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.ʼ

Do you think it's the meaning of God's name, and the character of individuals like Isaac and Jacob, which is important? Or do you think it's about pronouncing their names correctly?

What's God interested in?

It's about truth, and doing what He ask, even if we don't fully understand why.

[Richie]

I would suggest that an insistence that one needs to actually pronounce God's name borders on superstition, or actually is superstition. If you truly want to praise God by his name Yahweh and glorify that name you need to:

- be merciful, gracious, etc.
- be holy
- be incorporated in his purpose

[Hawleyluyah]

Richie, on Apr 13 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

I would suggest that an insistence that one needs to actually pronounce God's name borders on superstition, or actually is superstition. If you truly want to praise God by his name Yahweh and glorify that name you need to:

- be merciful, gracious, etc.
- be holy
- be incorporated in his purpose

Agreed. even Satan knows his name, knowing it is not a get out of jail free card.
That is a Babylonian superstition that oddly enough lead to the Jewish tradition of not using the Name.
But to admit that we honor others by calling them what they asked to be called, then what does it say about us not calling the one that made us, and gives us all we have, by the name he asked us to call him by?

Edited by Hawleyluyah, 13 April 2009 - 11:29 PM.

[Flappie]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

[Hawleyluyah]

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If you say so!

Quote

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Hallowed
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
2a) consecrate things to God
2b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
3a) to cleanse externally
3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G40
Citing in TDNT: 1:111, 14

So how does this make the name of no importance?

[Richie]

It shows the name is vitally important, and far more important than the letters that construct its Hebrew form. The spirit not the letter.

[Hawleyluyah]

Richie, on Apr 13 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

It shows the name is vitally important, and far more important than the letters that construct its Hebrew form. The spirit not the letter.

So it's so important that we can not care about it, care to expand on that.

[Flappie]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If you say so!

Quote

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

So how does this make the name of no importance?

When did I say the name was not important?

You haven't answered my question. Why if addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, are we taught to address Him as Father and not Yahweh?

[Hawleyluyah]

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If you say so!

Quote

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

So how does this make the name of no importance?

When did I say the name was not important?

You haven't answered my question. Why if addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, are we taught to address Him as Father and not Yahweh?

It's not important to address Him as Yahweh, what is important is when you address your Father, you know that he is Yahweh.
How much of what he gives us can we toss aside before we are in a totally new or pagan religion?

[Flappie]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If you say so!

Quote

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

So how does this make the name of no importance?

When did I say the name was not important?

You haven't answered my question. Why if addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, are we taught to address Him as Father and not Yahweh?

It's not important to address Him as Yahweh, what is important is when you address your Father, you know that he is Yahweh.

Well, that sounds fair enough, that's what Richie and myself were trying to say as well

[genfig100]

Flappie, on Apr 14 2009, 05:32 AM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 14 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 13 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Flappie, on Apr 13 2009, 03:55 AM, said:

Can you find me a verse that says Yahweh wants to be adressed as Yahweh and not Lord or anything else?

Heading out to work, but here are some to consider.

In other words, no, you can't.

If you say so!

Quote

If addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, why did His own son teach us otherwise as per Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

So how does this make the name of no importance?

When did I say the name was not important?

You haven't answered my question. Why if addressing Yahweh as Yahweh is so important, are we taught to address Him as Father and not Yahweh?

It's not important to address Him as Yahweh, what is important is when you address your Father, you know that he is Yahweh.

Well, that sounds fair enough, that's what Richie and myself were trying to say as well

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

[Hawleyluyah]

genfig100, on Apr 16 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

Are you referring to places like:
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisraʼĕl, ‘יהוה (Yahweh) Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.ʼ

And

Lev 19:12 ‘And do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your Elohim. I am יהוה (Yahweh).

Or are you saying that in these places you think the name is pronounced Yahavah?

Sorry for not getting it, please let me know.

[genfig100]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 17 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

genfig100, on Apr 16 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

Are you referring to places like:
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisraʼĕl, ‘יהוה (Yahweh) Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.ʼ

And

Lev 19:12 ‘And do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your Elohim. I am יהוה (Yahweh).

Or are you saying that in these places you think the name is pronounced Yahavah?

Sorry for not getting it, please let me know.

Thanks for your help, I looked up those verses. Exo 3:15 & Lev 19:12 KJV and I tried looking for Yahweh, But I found LORD-YHOVAH #3068. Please let me know which Bible you read from? Thanks

[Matt Smith]

genfig100, on Apr 17 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 17 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

genfig100, on Apr 16 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

Are you referring to places like:
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisraʼĕl, ‘יהוה (Yahweh) Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.ʼ

And

Lev 19:12 ‘And do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your Elohim. I am יהוה (Yahweh).

Or are you saying that in these places you think the name is pronounced Yahavah?

Sorry for not getting it, please let me know.

Thanks for your help, I looked up those verses. Exo 3:15 & Lev 19:12 KJV and I tried looking for Yahweh, But I found LORD-YHOVAH #3068. Please let me know which Bible you read from? Thanks

Don't know which one he's using, but the Jerusalem Bible uses Yahweh.

What Haw... is missing is that the Bible speaks of knowing God's name, not pronouncing it. And (I know, I know never start a sentence with the word "and") when the Bible speaks of a name it is no in our western context of a name, but rather that person's character. To know God's name is to know his character (see Exodus 34:5-7).

[genfig100]

Hudders, on Apr 17 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

genfig100, on Apr 16 2009, 11:05 PM, said:

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

You wont find Yahweh in a Bible, unless you have a particular translation that chooses to translate it that way. Some translations such as (I think) Rotherhams translate the name of God as 'Jehovah', though most translate it as 'LORD'. Look in a Hebrew bible though and you'll see יהוה

What's the Massorah, just out of curiosity? Is it an alternate spelling of the 'Masoretic' text?

As to Esther, well, yes, you can find all sorts of words locked away in the text, including יהוה if you arrange sentances in a grid and look down the grid etc. But it's not unique to Esther, you can do it with any book of the Bible.

I appreciate your help, I didn't think it was in the KJV Bible. The Massorah is the original manuscripts, you can read of it in the preface of most KJV Bibles.
And the book of Ester has GODS name locked away in the accrostics, if you want to learn more about it just read the Companion Bible. It has a lot of info if you are seeking a little more in depth teaching. Thanks again,

[genfig100]

Matt Smith, on Apr 18 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

genfig100, on Apr 17 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 17 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

genfig100, on Apr 16 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Can someone Help? please show me in the bible where GODS name is Yahweh? I can't find it ? I even looked in the Massorah? I know his names are YAHAVAH, ELOHIM, ELYON, SHADDAI etc. which are locked in the book of Ester. any scriptures in the bible would be very helpful? Thank you,

Are you referring to places like:
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisraʼĕl, ‘יהוה (Yahweh) Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all generations.ʼ

And

Lev 19:12 ‘And do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your Elohim. I am יהוה (Yahweh).

Or are you saying that in these places you think the name is pronounced Yahavah?

Sorry for not getting it, please let me know.

Thanks for your help, I looked up those verses. Exo 3:15 & Lev 19:12 KJV and I tried looking for Yahweh, But I found LORD-YHOVAH #3068. Please let me know which Bible you read from? Thanks

Don't know which one he's using, but the Jerusalem Bible uses Yahweh.

What Haw... is missing is that the Bible speaks of knowing God's name, not pronouncing it. And (I know, I know never start a sentence with the word "and") when the Bible speaks of a name it is no in our western context of a name, but rather that person's character. To know God's name is to know his character (see Exodus 34:5-7).

Thanks for that info it will help alot. just wanting to know where Yahweh came from?

[Matt Smith]

genfig100, on Apr 17 2009, 04:27 PM, said:

Matt Smith, on Apr 18 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

Don't know which one he's using, but the Jerusalem Bible uses Yahweh.

What Haw... is missing is that the Bible speaks of knowing God's name, not pronouncing it. And (I know, I know never start a sentence with the word "and") when the Bible speaks of a name it is no in our western context of a name, but rather that person's character. To know God's name is to know his character (see Exodus 34:5-7).

Thanks for that info it will help alot. just wanting to know where Yahweh came from?

The spelling of the name came from the attempt to transliterate the name that is found in the letters of the original Hebrew, YHWH. In Latin, it became Jehovah (ironic, considering ancient Latin didn't have a J, but it was added later). In English, several attempts were made going as far back as the mid-1600s. A number came to the conclusion that the name fit best if it was pronounced "Yahweh" (or something close to that). Gesenius, in the early 1800s seems to have made it a little more popular among Bible students and by the late 1800s, it was appearing in Bible translations such as Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, with a lengthy article in the beginning of the Bible.

This article can be viewed here. It starts on page 22.

[Hawleyluyah]

Matt Smith, on Apr 17 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

Don't know which one he's using, but the Jerusalem Bible uses Yahweh.

What Haw... is missing is that the Bible speaks of knowing God's name, not pronouncing it. And (I know, I know never start a sentence with the word "and") when the Bible speaks of a name it is no in our western context of a name, but rather that person's character. To know God's name is to know his character (see Exodus 34:5-7).

I often wounder what people base that assumption on.

Seems to me that not pronouncing something can only lead to eventually not knowing it, (he who fails to practice, only practice to fail.)

In the Hebrew culture, concern over name remembrance and pronunciation can be seen in their pain staking efforts to preserve there lineage.
And although names do often represent character, this does not mean that the name itself was not important.
After all there is meaning to all things in scripture, and great care was taken to preserve it word for word, so I don't see where you get that the name itself is of little consequence.

Also in Exodus 34:5-7, we do see statements of character, but the first thing done was Yahweh proclaimed His name did He not?
So again to claim that the name is only to show the character and in itself is unimportant is not founded in scripture, but instead over and over again the name is stressed as important.


Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Master Yahushua Messiah,
Eph 3:15 of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named,

Can you imagine the embarrassment of going to a family reunion, and not knowing your family name

[Richie]

I don't speak Hebrew and have no clue how to pronounce it. Guess I am ungodly.

[Hawleyluyah]

Richie, on Apr 17 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

I don't speak Hebrew and have no clue how to pronounce it. Guess I am ungodly.

I would say that's between you and him.

[Matt Smith]

If pronunciation was the important thing, we would have been told how to in Scripture.

[Hawleyluyah]

Matt Smith, on Apr 17 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

If pronunciation was the important thing, we would have been told how to in Scripture.

Blessings Matt, I followed your link to your site, and in reading the statement of faith it says the following.

15. That he sent forth apostles to proclaim salvation through him, as the only name given under heaven whereby men may be saved.

Acts 1:8; Matthew 28:19-20; Luke 24:46-48; Acts 26:16-18; Acts 4:12




So what is this statement saying if your true belief is that the true name is of little importance?
Was Messiah given a name, or was he given his character?
Can you clarify this statement of faith.





16. That the way to obtain this salvation is to believe the Gospel they preached, and to take on the name and service of Christ, by being thereupon immersed in water, and continuing patiently in the observance of all things he has commanded, none being recognized as his friends except those who do what he has commanded.

Acts 13:48; Acts 16:31; Mark 16:16; Romans 1:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 2:41; Acts 10:47; Acts 8:12; Galatians 3:27-29; Romans 6:3-5; Romans 2:7; Matthew 28:20; John 15:14

Act 2:38
Act 8:12
Act 10:48
Rom 6:4 all speak of baptism in the name, this was an act done in the actual name (an identifier), are you saying that getting that name right is not important?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Yahushua Messiah to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Yahushua Messiah, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Master. Then they begged him to stay certain days.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Yahushua Messiah were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.



17. That the gospel consists of "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ."

Acts 8:12; Acts 19:8; Acts 19:10; Acts 19:20; Acts 28:30-31


Are you saying in this statement that "Name" here does not really mean name but character?
And if so why not say character to make the statement clear?

Thank you for your time.

[Jeremy]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 18 2009, 03:20 AM, said:

I often wounder what people base that assumption on.

It's based firmly on apostolic practice as shown us in the inspired NT Scriptures. When the apostles were teaching and preaching, the Holy Spirit had the option of selecting Hebrew words for them to use. Very occasionally, it did transliterate from Hebrew to Greek (like "Satan", for instance), but the absence of God's personal Name from their words, as compared with the OT Scriptures, is a striking feature of what they said. For example, when both Paul and James are referring to God's OT title "LORD of Hosts", interestingly they transliterate "Sabaoth" but translate the Name using the ordinary Greek word for "lord". Here's what they wrote:

Rom. 9 v 29: "And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah."

James 5 v 4: "Behold, the hire of the labourers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."

To me, that's the end of the matter - we know exactly what NT practice was. We decide whether or not we follow their example.

Quote

Seems to me that not pronouncing something can only lead to eventually not knowing it, (he who fails to practice, only practice to fail.)

Seems to me that the apostles, who expounded the Name frequently in their writings, thought differently. Do please think about this.

Quote

Can you imagine the embarrassment of going to a family reunion, and not knowing your family name

I've never called my father by his first name, but as the NT writings demonstrate knowing God's name doesn't involve pronouncing it (which is probably just as well as we don't actually know how it was pronounced - I can see that being a bigger embarrassment, frankly).

[Jeremy]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 18 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

Are you saying in this statement that "Name" here does not really mean name but character?

That's exactly what God's Name meant when it was revealed to Moses in Ex. 34, yes.

[Hawleyluyah]

Jeremy, on Apr 18 2009, 01:17 AM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 18 2009, 03:20 AM, said:

I often wounder what people base that assumption on.

It's based firmly on apostolic practice as shown us in the inspired NT Scriptures. When the apostles were teaching and preaching, the Holy Spirit had the option of selecting Hebrew words for them to use. Very occasionally, it did transliterate from Hebrew to Greek (like "Satan", for instance), but the absence of God's personal Name from their words, as compared with the OT Scriptures, is a striking feature of what they said. For example, when both Paul and James are referring to God's OT title "LORD of Hosts", interestingly they transliterate "Sabaoth" but translate the Name using the ordinary Greek word for "lord". Here's what they wrote:

Rom. 9 v 29: "And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah."

James 5 v 4: "Behold, the hire of the labourers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."

To me, that's the end of the matter - we know exactly what NT practice was. We decide whether or not we follow their example.

I find it odd when I run into a group that in so many ways can see the obvious, but in other ways refuse to look.
Can you see that the holidays that are practiced today come from pagan ones from around the time the NT was supposedly put together?
Is it obvious that Sunday worship was taken from Sun day worship?
Is the calender you use the same as Messiah used?
Who removed the act of baptism underwater while having full understanding, and then replaced it with the sprinkling of newborns with no knowledge of what they do?
Who approved killing your enemy and said it gains you points in heaven as long as he's a heathen, over Messiah's words, love your enemy, and turn the other cheek?
Of course the ones responsible for all this was known as the RCC, and can you tell me what fruit was produced in burning believers at the stake, or any of the other torturous deaths they brought about?
And tell me what should we know by the fruit they bare?

These are the same men that are responsible for the NT you read today, a 4th century work, all known copies before this were destroyed by the order of Emperor Diocletian. So what is the proof that these text were first penned in the Greek? Nothing, not one place in scripture say I am writing to you in the Greek.
And many of the so called "church fathers" openly claimed that some of the books were first penned in Hebrew (Aramaic), mainly Matthew, which without a doubt reads much truer in the Aramaic, and is even poetic.
And if you knew your first century Hebrew law, you would know that in Mat 26:64 and Mar 14:62, the original event would have required Messiah to have said the name Yahweh, and not the word we find today "power"
I bet that you can pick any one doctrine of your choice, and list the verses that back it, and I would be able to not only match, but at least double the amount of verses that point to the importance of the name.

Why can't people see we are in the time of the great falling away, no one need be any longer forced to deny truth, they just willingly do so.

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Seems to me that not pronouncing something can only lead to eventually not knowing it, (he who fails to practice, only practice to fail.)

Seems to me that the apostles, who expounded the Name frequently in their writings, thought differently. Do please think about this.

Again, you need to consider the source.

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Can you imagine the embarrassment of going to a family reunion, and not knowing your family name

I've never called my father by his first name, but as the NT writings demonstrate knowing God's name doesn't involve pronouncing it (which is probably just as well as we don't actually know how it was pronounced - I can see that being a bigger embarrassment, frankly).

Same embarrassment.
That Name is your mina, it was to be called upon, and shared with others, not place away in a handkerchief until his return.

[Hawleyluyah]

genfig100, on Apr 17 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

]

Thanks for your help, I looked up those verses. Exo 3:15 & Lev 19:12 KJV and I tried looking for Yahweh, But I found LORD-YHOVAH #3068. Please let me know which Bible you read from? Thanks

I read from many versions, the one I used here is called "The Scriptures", but it contains the Tetragrammation only, I added the (Yahweh) for clarification.

But if you look in the preface of your bible, most will tell you that when you come across the word "LORD" of "GOD" in all caps, that it is a replacement for the name Yahweh.

May Yahweh bless.

[Hawleyluyah]

Matt Smith, on Apr 17 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

The spelling of the name came from the attempt to transliterate the name that is found in the letters of the original Hebrew, YHWH. In Latin, it became Jehovah (ironic, considering ancient Latin didn't have a J, but it was added later). In English, several attempts were made going as far back as the mid-1600s. A number came to the conclusion that the name fit best if it was pronounced "Yahweh" (or something close to that). Gesenius, in the early 1800s seems to have made it a little more popular among Bible students and by the late 1800s, it was appearing in Bible translations such as Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, with a lengthy article in the beginning of the Bible.

This article can be viewed here. It starts on page 22.

It would probably be more accurate to say that Yahweh is a phonetic transcription of the Greek iaoue which in turn is believed to be a phonetic transcription of the Hebrew יהוה.
Also even though the name Jehovah is way off from the original, that is due to time as much as to transliteration.
Meaning the original attempt took the Tetragrammation which is יהוה and unknowingly added the vowel points from adoni this made its way into old English as Iehovah, this at a time when a "U" could be pronounced as a "V" and a "V" as a "U".
So at that time the name Iehovah being incorrect was still not far off from Yahweh, it just had altered vowel sounds. It was over time when the English language formed a second "I" in the alphabet, this one with a tail, and then later assigned the new "I" a new sound and the "V" and the "U" became locked in their usage, that the name pronounces Iehouah became Jehovah.
The easiest thing to remember is that the name is made up of four vowels.

ee----------------------------

ah----------------------------

oo----------------------------

eh----------------------------

Thank you for your time.

[Jeremy]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 18 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

I find it odd when I run into a group that in so many ways can see the obvious, but in other ways refuse to look.
Can you see that the holidays that are practiced today come from pagan ones from around the time the NT was supposedly put together?
Is it obvious that Sunday worship was taken from Sun day worship?
Is the calender you use the same as Messiah used?
Who removed the act of baptism underwater while having full understanding, and then replaced it with the sprinkling of newborns with no knowledge of what they do?
Who approved killing your enemy and said it gains you points in heaven as long as he's a heathen, over Messiah's words, love your enemy, and turn the other cheek?
Of course the ones responsible for all this was known as the RCC, and can you tell me what fruit was produced in burning believers at the stake, or any of the other torturous deaths they brought about?
And tell me what should we know by the fruit they bare?

I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but most of it Scripture says nothing on.

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So what is the proof that these text were first penned in the Greek? Nothing, not one place in scripture say I am writing to you in the Greek.

Well, what language would you choose to use when writing to the Greek-world? Aramaic? You wouldn't get many readers if so.

H, I'm out of this thread - I believe we're wasting our time - but without unkindness on my part I would just like to say that you do seem to be a one-issue Christian.

[nsr]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 18 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

I find it odd when I run into a group that in so many ways can see the obvious, but in other ways refuse to look.
Can you see that the holidays that are practiced today come from pagan ones from around the time the NT was supposedly put together?

Yes. So what? Christadelphians don't observe any day above another.

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Is it obvious that Sunday worship was taken from Sun day worship?

Yes. So what? Christadelphians don't regard Sunday worship as mandatory. It can be done any day. Sunday happens to be the most logical time to do it, for reasons such as most people having the day off work.

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Is the calender you use the same as Messiah used?

No. So what? Using the Jewish calendar would be silly.

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Who removed the act of baptism underwater while having full understanding, and then replaced it with the sprinkling of newborns with no knowledge of what they do?

Christadelphians believe in and practice full water immersion baptisms. I don't think you've done your research on us particularly well.

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Who approved killing your enemy and said it gains you points in heaven as long as he's a heathen, over Messiah's words, love your enemy, and turn the other cheek?

Apostate church leaders corrupted by the world. Why?

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Of course the ones responsible for all this was known as the RCC, and can you tell me what fruit was produced in burning believers at the stake, or any of the other torturous deaths they brought about?
And tell me what should we know by the fruit they bare?

I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

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These are the same men that are responsible for the NT you read today, a 4th century work, all known copies before this were destroyed by the order of Emperor Diocletian. So what is the proof that these text were first penned in the Greek? Nothing, not one place in scripture say I am writing to you in the Greek.

You are incorrect. There are existing New Testament fragments, manuscripts and codices in Greek from before the 4th century. The earliest date back to the mid 2nd century. You shouldn't be making these kinds of assertions when you clearly haven't done any research.

Also, why would somebody writing in Greek say "I'm writing to you in Greek"? The reader would know what language he was reading.

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And many of the so called "church fathers" openly claimed that some of the books were first penned in Hebrew (Aramaic), mainly Matthew, which without a doubt reads much truer in the Aramaic, and is even poetic.

Which church fathers? Can you provide quotations? Given that almost none of them were around when the gospels were written, I need to know which ones you're referring to.

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And if you knew your first century Hebrew law, you would know that in Mat 26:64 and Mar 14:62, the original event would have required Messiah to have said the name Yahweh, and not the word we find today "power"

I have no idea what you are talking about. What "first century Hebrew law" are you referring to?

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I bet that you can pick any one doctrine of your choice, and list the verses that back it, and I would be able to not only match, but at least double the amount of verses that point to the importance of the name.

And I bet that the verses you listed wouldn't actually say anything of the kind. You can make the Bible mean anything you like when you approach it with pre-conceived ideas.

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Why can't people see we are in the time of the great falling away, no one need be any longer forced to deny truth, they just willingly do so.

The falling away began when the apostles died and the Holy Spirit gifts ceased. It's still going on.

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That Name is your mina, it was to be called upon, and shared with others, not place away in a handkerchief until his return.

I have no idea what this means either. In practical terms, what are you saying a person actually needs to do? And what difference does it make?