Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Ezekiel's Temple


  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#1 twoofseven

twoofseven

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 991 posts

Posted 24 October 2008 - 06:12 PM

We have just finished Ezekiel in our family daily readings. We discussed it quite a bit, but really feel as if we are still in the dark about what Ezekiel's temple represents. Is it a future prophecy? Did it already have a initial fulfillment? What is meant by the detailed measurements? We have an idea that it has something to do with Christ and the faithful in the Kingdom. We were interested in the passage in chapter 43 that speaks of a restored house of Israel and draws a connection between and pattern (the measurements?) and living in the law of the temple. Any comments?
twoofseven

"The power of a man's virtue should not be measured by his special efforts, but by his ordinary doings." Blaise Pascal

#2 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 24 October 2008 - 09:14 PM

Interesting - we too are thinking about this very subject!!! I'm trying to locate a Christadelphian book about it - if I find it on-line I'll let you know the details, though others might know of it.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#3 composer

composer

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,065 posts

Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:41 PM

I came across something years ago and converted to .html format

Please see attached

Attached Files



#4 IDF

IDF

    Rho

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,452 posts

Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:43 PM

found this site that has a bit of interesting info http://www.geocities...kiel-Temple.htm
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#5 Russell

Russell

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 699 posts

Posted 25 October 2008 - 01:27 AM

I find Ezekiel's temple puzzling. I cannot believe that all that detail was given just as a conditional promise in case Israel was righteous, God hoping that the Ezra temple would be that fulfilment. And that's it!? There must be more to it than that.

On the other hand the the chapters are full of indications of a mortal population.

How about this hypothesis. The promise WAS a conditional hopeful promise dependant of Israel's righteousness. However God's word is not written in vain. There will be a fulfilment. An actual temple will be built. I even suspect that the temple will be built PRIOR to Christ's return.

I don't know to what extent Christ is prefigured. The prince does not seem to be Christ. If that is correct then where else is Christ?

Edited by Weasley, 25 October 2008 - 01:29 AM.
typo


#6 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 25 October 2008 - 08:43 AM

The book I had in mind was this one and is available from http://www.printlandpublishers.com/

It is called "The City of the Living God" , by Peter Schwartzkopff ISBN 81 7887 011 8

Description:
Two thousand five hundred years ago the Jewish Prophet Ezekiel was given a wonderful vision of a temple dedicated to the worship of God. The Kingdom of God together with God’s planned “House of Prayer for All Nations” will become a reality, at the coming of Christ. This book is a completely fresh look at this wonderful prophecy. The illustrated review of ‘Ezekiel’s Temple’ prophecy attempts to given an accurate overview of every section of the prophecy. There is recognition that the modern reader gets impatient wading through hundreds of pages of heavy text. Consequently, these notes combine dot point notes with prose as well as over 36 full color photographs and many detailed drawings.
168 pp. Size: 24cm x 18cm

Edited by Dawn, 25 October 2008 - 08:46 AM.

"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#7 Jon D

Jon D

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 807 posts

Posted 25 October 2008 - 09:09 AM

It describes a temple that will be built in the Kingdom Age. It's fascinating. I'll post more this evening...

Even so, come, Lord Jesus


#8 Gileade

Gileade

    Rho

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,890 posts

Posted 25 October 2008 - 09:45 AM

These are some of the passages I find hard to armonize with a Kingdom Age temple:

43:19 you will give a young bull for a sin offering to the Levitical priests who are descended from Zadok, who approach me to minister to me, declares the sovereign Lord.


43:21 You will also take the bull for the sin offering, and it will be burned in the appointed place in the temple, outside the sanctuary.


43:22 “On the second day, you will offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering. They will purify the altar just as they purified it with the bull.


45:17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offering at festivals, on the new moons and Sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he will provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.


45:22 On that day the prince will provide for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering


46:18 The prince will not take away any of the people’s inheritance by oppressively removing them from their property. He will give his sons an inheritance from his own possessions so that my people will not be scattered, each from his own property


I find it very hard to believe that this is linked to the the Kingdom, it seems all going back to the Law of Moses which was fulfilled in Christ.

Col 2:14 He has destroyed29 what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness30 expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. 2:15 Disarming31 the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross.32

2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.


Heb 9:12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured

10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins.

10:12 But when this priest12 had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand13 of God

10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.




I know that some come with the idea that the offerings will be only to "look back" to what Christ did. But we have the Bible and the Breaking of Bread, and in the Kingdom Christ will be there, it doesn't seem at all to make sense to have offerings to remind the peoples about what Christ did. And the temple people see in plans etc is an idealized thing, this temple would be full of blood, thousands and thousands of sacrifices. When Christ already offered himself for sin. To me it makes no sense the return of sacriffices, Sabbath, Levitical priesthood when all that pointed to Christ and the redemption - and are all past now.


I find interesting what Weasley said, perhaps this will be set up by the Jews before the Return and then changed to a house of prayer for all the nations, not only for the house of Israel. Although this isn't without difficulties either as the jews today don't know to which tribe the belong to and who would be the prince.

I think we only can know about what all this means when the Kingdom arrives.

All quotations from the NET Bible.
Posted Image
Quer saber mais sobre a Bíblia? Clique aqui

#9 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 25 October 2008 - 05:23 PM

These are some of the passages I find hard to armonize with a Kingdom Age temple:

43:19 you will give a young bull for a sin offering to the Levitical priests who are descended from Zadok, who approach me to minister to me, declares the sovereign Lord.


43:21 You will also take the bull for the sin offering, and it will be burned in the appointed place in the temple, outside the sanctuary.


43:22 “On the second day, you will offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering. They will purify the altar just as they purified it with the bull.


45:17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offering at festivals, on the new moons and Sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he will provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.


45:22 On that day the prince will provide for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering


46:18 The prince will not take away any of the people’s inheritance by oppressively removing them from their property. He will give his sons an inheritance from his own possessions so that my people will not be scattered, each from his own property


I find it very hard to believe that this is linked to the the Kingdom, it seems all going back to the Law of Moses which was fulfilled in Christ.

Col 2:14 He has destroyed29 what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness30 expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. 2:15 Disarming31 the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross.32

2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.


Heb 9:12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured

10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins.

10:12 But when this priest12 had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand13 of God

10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.




I know that some come with the idea that the offerings will be only to "look back" to what Christ did. But we have the Bible and the Breaking of Bread, and in the Kingdom Christ will be there, it doesn't seem at all to make sense to have offerings to remind the peoples about what Christ did. And the temple people see in plans etc is an idealized thing, this temple would be full of blood, thousands and thousands of sacrifices. When Christ already offered himself for sin. To me it makes no sense the return of sacriffices, Sabbath, Levitical priesthood when all that pointed to Christ and the redemption - and are all past now.


Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#10 composer

composer

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,065 posts

Posted 26 October 2008 - 01:19 AM

Are we speaking of the time when immortals and mortals are together?

If so, then mortals need organic food to survive. So is it possible that any animal sacrifices which may occur, would be as an example of what Christ did and at the same time the food required to maintain mortal life is put to better service (Symbolism) than merely being killed just to eat?

Thanks

#11 Jon D

Jon D

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 807 posts

Posted 26 October 2008 - 08:31 AM

My internet connection is poor, when I'm home I'll try to put up some answers to the questions asked.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus


#12 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 26 October 2008 - 04:37 PM

Are we speaking of the time when immortals and mortals are together?

Yes - that's what I had in mind as in the Kingdom age that will be the case.

If so, then mortals need organic food to survive. So is it possible that any animal sacrifices which may occur, would be as an example of what Christ did and at the same time the food required to maintain mortal life is put to better service (Symbolism) than merely being killed just to eat?

Thanks

I don't know about that - I was think more about nations and peoples who are in real spiritual darkness (eg, take the Masai people for example) - I think they will not necessarily just accept Christ because He's on David's throne, they will need teaching.

Edited by Dawn, 27 October 2008 - 10:24 AM.

"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#13 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 08:38 AM

I came across something years ago and converted to .html format

Please see attached



This link didn't work for me, but this book can be found (html) here



Far too busy to join this discussion but a topic needing debate certainly.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#14 Gileade

Gileade

    Rho

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,890 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:44 AM

Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?


I am not dogmatic about this but what you just said doesn't convince me. you say that the nations will need teaching. What about us now? We have the Bible and the breaking of bread, aren't they enough for us? In the Kingdom there will be: the Bible, the immortalised saints who can teach the populations and most important of all Jesus will be there in Jerusalem.

Edited by Gileade, 27 October 2008 - 10:44 AM.

Posted Image
Quer saber mais sobre a Bíblia? Clique aqui

#15 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:01 AM

I came across something years ago and converted to .html format

Please see attached



This link didn't work for me, but this book can be found (html) here


It's interesting there are two camps about it. This is exactly the same in mainstream Christianity too though most mainstreams totally reject Ezekiel's Temple on the grounds that it's totally absurd in the light what Christ achieved for us, and they whole idea of it and what it would represent - they just can't stomach it in the light of the "once-and-for-all sacrifice" of Christ.

FWIW I personally would not be surprised that there will be a literal righteous Temple in the Kindgom age - mainly because of God's covenant with Israel as a nation. Otherwise it's pointless they are back in the land. Why preserve Israel as a nation if God has no further use for them?

I believe God will use the nation of Israel in the Kingdom along with the saints to teach righteousness to tne nations of the world - there are other Scriptures which speak of this:

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:2 Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

These Scriptures have never been fulfilled. .....and neither has this one been fulfilled:

Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The government of the whole world will be upon the shoulders of Christ, and Israel will be the head of the nations and no longer the tail.

Do most Christadelphians still believe Christ will pysically return to earth in power and great glory to raise the dead, and to set up God's Kingdom on earth and reign on David's throne in Jerusalem with the saints also ruling with Him? Or is that beginning to take on symbolic significance as well for some?

....and of course I do believe there are some Christians who will reject Christ when He returns becuase they have a wrong understanding about the Kingdom and Ezekiel's Temple and the one who stops the daily and evening sacrifice will be held by many mainstream Christians to be the Christ, when in fact the opposite may be true? We need to keep and open mind I think, offensive and horrible as animal sacrifices are to us today, we need to keep and open mind?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#16 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:07 AM

Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?


I am not dogmatic about this but what you just said doesn't convince me. you say that the nations will need teaching. What about us now? We have the Bible and the breaking of bread, aren't they enough for us? In the Kingdom there will be: the Bible, the immortalised saints who can teach the populations and most important of all Jesus will be there in Jerusalem.

I know what you mean, but from Scripture all I can see is that God will use the nation of Israel AS WELL. I don't know why - you'd think Christ and the saints would be enough - and maybe they will, I'm not saying I'm right, but from Scripture it does seem God is going to use the nation of Israel as a light and example to other nations.

But as my previous post shows there are Scriptures which haven't been fulfilled yet which seem to indicate, for some reason, God will use Israel (a righteous Israel - not the secular-cum-extreme types you get today: God has got to bring them to the dust first before they accept Him and His Messiah - who I believe will be accepted by Israel just as Joseph was by his brethren, in penitence and love), to teach other nations - including "strong nations" - the way of righteousness.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#17 Gileade

Gileade

    Rho

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,890 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 01:19 PM

Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?


I am not dogmatic about this but what you just said doesn't convince me. you say that the nations will need teaching. What about us now? We have the Bible and the breaking of bread, aren't they enough for us? In the Kingdom there will be: the Bible, the immortalised saints who can teach the populations and most important of all Jesus will be there in Jerusalem.

I know what you mean, but from Scripture all I can see is that God will use the nation of Israel AS WELL. I don't know why - you'd think Christ and the saints would be enough - and maybe they will, I'm not saying I'm right, but from Scripture it does seem God is going to use the nation of Israel as a light and example to other nations.

But as my previous post shows there are Scriptures which haven't been fulfilled yet which seem to indicate, for some reason, God will use Israel (a righteous Israel - not the secular-cum-extreme types you get today: God has got to bring them to the dust first before they accept Him and His Messiah - who I believe will be accepted by Israel just as Joseph was by his brethren, in penitence and love), to teach other nations - including "strong nations" - the way of righteousness.


Nothing wrong with that(Israel finally fulfilling it's role) but Sabbaths, sacrifices etc which were all shadows of things that were fulfillied in Christs. This is the problem I have with it.
Posted Image
Quer saber mais sobre a Bíblia? Clique aqui

#18 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 01:59 PM

Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?


I am not dogmatic about this but what you just said doesn't convince me. you say that the nations will need teaching. What about us now? We have the Bible and the breaking of bread, aren't they enough for us? In the Kingdom there will be: the Bible, the immortalised saints who can teach the populations and most important of all Jesus will be there in Jerusalem.

I know what you mean, but from Scripture all I can see is that God will use the nation of Israel AS WELL. I don't know why - you'd think Christ and the saints would be enough - and maybe they will, I'm not saying I'm right, but from Scripture it does seem God is going to use the nation of Israel as a light and example to other nations.

But as my previous post shows there are Scriptures which haven't been fulfilled yet which seem to indicate, for some reason, God will use Israel (a righteous Israel - not the secular-cum-extreme types you get today: God has got to bring them to the dust first before they accept Him and His Messiah - who I believe will be accepted by Israel just as Joseph was by his brethren, in penitence and love), to teach other nations - including "strong nations" - the way of righteousness.


Nothing wrong with that(Israel finally fulfilling it's role) but Sabbaths, sacrifices etc which were all shadows of things that were fulfillied in Christs. This is the problem I have with it.

Yes I know what you mean - I find it hard to believe God will use shadows again to teach the nations righteousness, but maybe that's how it will be for some reason. For us who are enlightened about it and have received the gift of salvation in Christ it is hard to udnerstand how it is necessary to go back to shadows - yet maybe that is how the Kingdom will be established in Christ's reign over the nations - by them demonstrating obedience to God's Laws, I don't know.

It's just that there are some Scriptures which are difficult to "spiritualise" - such as:

Zec 14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

....I find these verses hard to swallow as they don't fit in with my 'grace' theology in Christ, and why bother to keep the Feast of Tabernacles in the Kingdom, yet I struggle to give them any meaning other than literal.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#19 janice

janice

    Mu

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPip
  • 313 posts

Posted 27 October 2008 - 03:13 PM

Good points, but this is why also a lot of mainstream christians can't accept it either and they reject the idea of setting up animal sacrifices as almost virtually blasphemous, but I don't know. I can understand it since they were only a shadow. but then if Exekiel's Temple is to be a house of prayer for all nations, then the nations will need teaching? When christ has returned, there will still be a mortal population who will have to learn righteousness and holiness?


I am not dogmatic about this but what you just said doesn't convince me. you say that the nations will need teaching. What about us now? We have the Bible and the breaking of bread, aren't they enough for us? In the Kingdom there will be: the Bible, the immortalised saints who can teach the populations and most important of all Jesus will be there in Jerusalem.

I know what you mean, but from Scripture all I can see is that God will use the nation of Israel AS WELL. I don't know why - you'd think Christ and the saints would be enough - and maybe they will, I'm not saying I'm right, but from Scripture it does seem God is going to use the nation of Israel as a light and example to other nations.

But as my previous post shows there are Scriptures which haven't been fulfilled yet which seem to indicate, for some reason, God will use Israel (a righteous Israel - not the secular-cum-extreme types you get today: God has got to bring them to the dust first before they accept Him and His Messiah - who I believe will be accepted by Israel just as Joseph was by his brethren, in penitence and love), to teach other nations - including "strong nations" - the way of righteousness.


Nothing wrong with that(Israel finally fulfilling it's role) but Sabbaths, sacrifices etc which were all shadows of things that were fulfillied in Christs. This is the problem I have with it.

Yes I know what you mean - I find it hard to believe God will use shadows again to teach the nations righteousness, but maybe that's how it will be for some reason. For us who are enlightened about it and have received the gift of salvation in Christ it is hard to udnerstand how it is necessary to go back to shadows - yet maybe that is how the Kingdom will be established in Christ's reign over the nations - by them demonstrating obedience to God's Laws, I don't know.

It's just that there are some Scriptures which are difficult to "spiritualise" - such as:

Zec 14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

....I find these verses hard to swallow as they don't fit in with my 'grace' theology in Christ, and why bother to keep the Feast of Tabernacles in the Kingdom, yet I struggle to give them any meaning other than literal.

I think the important point of this Zechariah quote is the fact that it is the Feast of Tabernacles, the one that occurs at the end of Harvest I have always found the feasts a little confusing but on re-reading the descriptions of feasts there seems to be often several parts to most feasts - different names to parts of the feasts e.g. passover co-incident to the first-firstfruits if I can call it that. The seventh month has the Day of Atonement (not mentioned in Zechariah), the Day of Trumpet Blowing and a Holy convocation on the fifteenth of the month and the Feast of Tabernacles on the fifteenth of the month. In the description of the sacrifices offered for the co-incident holy convocation (listed as being in addition to the normal sacrifices) is the edict that it is one of the three feasts to be attended year to year, but the description of the booth building is to be done "for ever" by the members of Israel.
I don't know how much emphasis to be put on the different aspects of feasts but I do feel that not every aspect of the Law relating to sacrifices are an essential part of the feast - after all in dedicating the Temple Solomon messed around with the numbers of animals sacrificed and the number of days it was kept.
The feast of Tabernacles was celebrated by the returned Jews in Nehemiah's time and every seventh year the feast of Tabernacles was when the Law was re-read - co-incident with the year of Jubilee.

Anyway my general feeling is that not all parts of a feast are essential - some of the details were there to provide suitable food for the participants and will not be necessary in the kingdom. By the way I tend to the idea of Ezekial's temple being an unfulfilled prophecy which was conditional on the behaviour of the Jews in exile.

#20 Russell

Russell

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 699 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 01:43 AM

I have browsed through Peter Schwartzkopff's book "The City of the Living God". I must say that I like his approach.

I can accept the idea that the original prophecy was conditional on Israel's righteousness in just the same way as Lev 26:1-13 was conditional on Israel's righteousness. However the blessing of Lev 26:1-13 WILL be fulfilled. How do we know that? Because Paul tells us in Rom 11 that Israel will be saved:

Rom 11:26-29 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (27) "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (28) As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. (29) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

So the conditional prophecy of Ezekiel 40+ will be fulfilled. And why not literally?

I also like the way Peter sees the Prince as being not Christ but a mortal prince.

The architectural details of Peter's book I have only glanced at, and it would honestly take a long time to get a good enough understanding to have a useful opinion. He broadly follows Sully's approach to the architecture, especially the large dimensions. Although in details he reaches different architectural conclusions.

Peter answers the (in my opinion) spurious argument that the sacrifices can never be re-instated.

I may even spend the $Aus28 and actually buy the book.

#21 Fortigurn

Fortigurn

    Omega

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,244 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 02:05 AM

Weasley, link to a review?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#22 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 02:08 AM

Hi all :rose:

There was a thread on this subject a while ago which I discussed with BTDF before.

It is called: "Kingdom Elements"

The BTDFers and I were in dispute between Harry Whitaker's View and that of Henry Sulley. :cupid: :)

Ezekiel 40 - 48

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#23 TrevorL

TrevorL

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 266 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 02:32 AM

Greetings Damien and others,

Hi all :rose:

There was a thread on this subject a while ago which I discussed with BTDF before.

It is called: "Kingdom Elements"

The BTDFers and I were in dispute between Harry Whitaker's View and that of Henry Sulley. :cupid: :)

Ezekiel 40 - 48

Our ecclesia has been taken through some Bible Classes on Ezekiel's Temple. The young brother based his studies on Henry Sulley's book and I got lost in some of the detail. His last class was on the Altar and I was impressed with the details and the overall view of this, as the brother was convincing. I have tentatively thought that I should prove this for myself, and then work back to some of the other detail. One thing I would like to check is the basis for belief that the centre portion is circular, and I have seen a few sketches of the basis for this. But overall at this stage I am content with Henry Sulley's exposition.

Kind regards
Trevor

#24 Russell

Russell

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 699 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 03:28 AM

Weasley, link to a review?


I'm not aware of any review, and I don't have enough real knowledge to do more than my last posting, which I suppose is partly a mini-review. I don't think Peter sees the prophecy as conditional. Personally I see it as a short-term hope, and a long-term reality. Also I'm not so sure that Christ will construct the temple, or if he does then I suspect that a Jewish temple will be built in modern Israel, because there are some prophecies that are difficult to imagine being fulfilled without a temple existing just prior to Christ's return. I don't have the scriptures at hand. I'd have to find the scriptures again.

#25 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 04:16 AM

Good I found it :)

http://www.thechrist...p?showforum=103

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#26 Dawn

Dawn

    Chi

  • On Vacation
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,318 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:53 PM

I have browsed through Peter Schwartzkopff's book "The City of the Living God". I must say that I like his approach.

I can accept the idea that the original prophecy was conditional on Israel's righteousness in just the same way as Lev 26:1-13 was conditional on Israel's righteousness. However the blessing of Lev 26:1-13 WILL be fulfilled. How do we know that? Because Paul tells us in Rom 11 that Israel will be saved:

Rom 11:26-29 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (27) "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (28) As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. (29) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

So the conditional prophecy of Ezekiel 40+ will be fulfilled. And why not literally?

I also like the way Peter sees the Prince as being not Christ but a mortal prince.

The architectural details of Peter's book I have only glanced at, and it would honestly take a long time to get a good enough understanding to have a useful opinion. He broadly follows Sully's approach to the architecture, especially the large dimensions. Although in details he reaches different architectural conclusions.

Peter answers the (in my opinion) spurious argument that the sacrifices can never be re-instated.

I may even spend the $Aus28 and actually buy the book.

I ordered it a few days ago.

To be frank, the way I feel at the moment I couldn't really care less whether the animal sacrifices are re-instated in the Kingdom age or not. It's up to God. I hope they're not needed, but if they are, then that's it.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#27 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:11 PM

Good I found it :cupid:

http://www.thechrist...p?showforum=103



This link doen't take you anywhere!

:)

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#28 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:33 PM

Greetings Damien and others,

Hi all ;)

There was a thread on this subject a while ago which I discussed with BTDF before.

It is called: "Kingdom Elements"

The BTDFers and I were in dispute between Harry Whitaker's View and that of Henry Sulley. :rose: :)

Ezekiel 40 - 48

Our ecclesia has been taken through some Bible Classes on Ezekiel's Temple. The young brother based his studies on Henry Sulley's book and I got lost in some of the detail. His last class was on the Altar and I was impressed with the details and the overall view of this, as the brother was convincing. I have tentatively thought that I should prove this for myself, and then work back to some of the other detail. One thing I would like to check is the basis for belief that the centre portion is circular, and I have seen a few sketches of the basis for this. But overall at this stage I am content with Henry Sulley's exposition.

Kind regards
Trevor



Many years ago, the Bible Exhibition occasionally carried a non-Sully Temple model always accompanied by its constructor a Brother from Sheffield (I think) and he had some strong arguments against the book by Henry Sully. One of them went something like this:

"Ezekiel is given a guided tour of the Temple complex From Ch 40:6 to the end of Ch 42." In his model, you could walk Ezekiel though the building, fulfilling those steps interspersed with He brought me unto and he measured. In Sullys model you couldn't - the best you could do would be to present these stages as snapshots.


:cupid:

Edited by Lectron, 31 October 2008 - 11:38 PM.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#29 TrevorL

TrevorL

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 266 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 02:14 AM

Greetings Lectron,

Many years ago, the Bible Exhibition occasionally carried a non-Sully Temple model always accompanied by its constructor a Brother from Sheffield (I think) and he had some strong arguments against the book by Henry Sully. One of them went something like this:

"Ezekiel is given a guided tour of the Temple complex From Ch 40:6 to the end of Ch 42." In his model, you could walk Ezekiel though the building, fulfilling those steps interspersed with He brought me unto and he measured. In Sullys model you couldn't - the best you could do would be to present these stages as snapshots.

:)

I appreciate your response. I have also come in contact with a brother who had a fairly detailed exposition, but it never became popular, and I dont know if his work is still available.

On the traditional view, Stan Snow from Melbourne specialised in presenting Henry Sulley's view and there are 42 talks on this on the Christadelphian Studies website. Also Rob Magennis 5 studies and introduction and slides are also on that site.

F Bilton has 11 articles in The Christadelphian "Ezekiel's Temple - Large or Small".

So overall, I think I would like to absorb some of these before I have a thorough look at contrary views.

Kind regards
Trevor

#30 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 08:21 AM

:)

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users