Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Ezekiel's Temple


  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#31 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 11:20 AM

Good I found it ;)

http://www.thechrist...p?showforum=103



This link doen't take you anywhere!

:)



DOH!! ;)

Type under keyword search "Sulleyite". lol I remember a brother once wrote it. It will come up with the thread.

Perhaps then the moderators or someone can link up that thread. :cupid:

Sorry, I don't know how to use this site to well :rose:

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#32 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 01 November 2008 - 11:22 AM

The thread is called "Kingdom Elements?" What will it be made of?

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#33 composer

composer

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,065 posts

Posted 02 November 2008 - 02:16 AM

Direct Link -

http://www.thechrist...mp;hl=Sulleyite

#34 TrevorL

TrevorL

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts

Posted 02 November 2008 - 04:28 AM

Greetings again,

I also enjoyed listening to John Carter's talk on Isaiah 2 (available on the Vault websirte). He links Isaiah 2 with Ezekiel 40-48, showing that the future house of God will be both religious and civil, where Christ's and the 12 apostolic thrones will be, as well as the centre of religious worship. There is a precis in The Christadelphian of this talk, but he also covers more detail relevant to this subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

#35 buckerss

buckerss

    Xi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPip
  • 417 posts

Posted 02 November 2008 - 10:15 PM

I find Ezekiels temple, along with other structures detailed in the old testament, to be incredible. Try doing a study of the gematria relating to the sizes of the temple....the sizes are there for a purpose, not just there for the sake of it!!! If anyones interested I would email a few details Ive got notrd down.

#36 Fortigurn

Fortigurn

    Omega

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,244 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:19 AM

"Ezekiel is given a guided tour of the Temple complex From Ch 40:6 to the end of Ch 42." In his model, you could walk Ezekiel though the building, fulfilling those steps interspersed with He brought me unto and he measured. In Sullys model you couldn't - the best you could do would be to present these stages as snapshots.


I don't think that's actually true. I've seen a 3D animated model of Sulley's reconstruction, using a figure who walks continuously through the complex.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#37 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 09:59 AM

"Ezekiel is given a guided tour of the Temple complex From Ch 40:6 to the end of Ch 42." In his model, you could walk Ezekiel though the building, fulfilling those steps interspersed with He brought me unto and he measured. In Sullys model you couldn't - the best you could do would be to present these stages as snapshots.


I don't think that's actually true. I've seen a 3D animated model of Sulley's reconstruction, using a figure who walks continuously through the complex.


Sounds interesting, but has it actually been checked? looks like we've both taken somebody else's word for it. Henry Sully carried a lot of clout in this matter in christadelphia 100 yrs ago.
Like the basic unit of measurement (uniquely?) taken as a reed and not a cubit.

:)

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#38 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:38 PM

"Ezekiel is given a guided tour of the Temple complex From Ch 40:6 to the end of Ch 42." In his model, you could walk Ezekiel though the building, fulfilling those steps interspersed with He brought me unto and he measured. In Sullys model you couldn't - the best you could do would be to present these stages as snapshots.


I don't think that's actually true. I've seen a 3D animated model of Sulley's reconstruction, using a figure who walks continuously through the complex.


Fort, or Moderators perhaps you could help direct them with a link to the thread:

"Kingdom Elements" What will it be made of?

I found the thread but I don't know how to link to it. :cupid:

It had our disputes between Henry Sulley's view and Harry Whitakers

:)

Edited by Damien, 03 November 2008 - 11:38 PM.

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#39 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:19 AM

Direct Link -

http://www.thechrist...mp;hl=Sulleyite


not the one I was looking for composer :)

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#40 Damien

Damien

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,815 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:21 AM

http://www.thechrist...?showtopic=9636


GOT IT!! :)

Edited by Damien, 04 November 2008 - 05:22 AM.

As truly as I live, all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord


Numbers 14 v 21


#41 composer

composer

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,065 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:22 AM

http://www.thechrist...?showtopic=9636


GOT IT!! :first:

That's strange, I get -

Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken

?

Regards to all

#42 twoofseven

twoofseven

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 991 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:31 AM

Because the thread is not in a public area. Not all forum members can see it.
twoofseven

"The power of a man's virtue should not be measured by his special efforts, but by his ordinary doings." Blaise Pascal

#43 Davvers

Davvers

    Pi

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 09:13 AM

http://www.thechrist...?showtopic=9636


GOT IT!! :)



What goes around comes around. A momentous event occurred in that thread - my first post and introduction to the wacky world of BTDF! 24 Oct 2006

Ahhh the memories...

D

#44 Russell

Russell

    Pi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPip
  • 699 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 11:36 AM

I did not follow the thread at the time. I don't remember why not. I can see why veterans from that thread have pointed back to it.

Quick summary, modified by my own thinking.

IN SUPPORT OF A LITERAL TEMPLE


1. What is the point of 9 chapters of fine detail if no temple is ever to be built? If the argument is made that it was conditional, and the conditions have not been met, then consider Rom 11 "all Israel shall be saved". So although the conditions have not yet been met, they will one day.

2. Everyone has seen those pictures of the temple, some of them engraved on Bible covers. With the big round section in the middle. :)

IN OPPOSITION TO A LITERAL TEMPLE


1. No mention of Christ! Unless the prince is supposed to be Christ as Sulley suggests. But the prince is clearly mortal. So how can a kingdom picture exclude Christ?! Hmmm. That's a hard one. One possibility is that Christ is not mentioned except obliquely. Eze 48:35 '... And the name of the city from that time on shall be, The LORD Is There."' But Ezekiel is focussing on worship in the kingdom, not on Christ. We are so used to emphasis on Christ in both OT and NT that we assume that Christ is always mentioned. Maybe not in this case except obliquely.

2. Sacrifices done away with. But if OT sacrifices were useful even though they had no efficacy of themselves, then why not in the future too? That is pointing back to Christ just as they previously pointed forward to Christ. The feasts have likewise been done away with. And yet:
Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
suggesting that some at least of the feasts will be introduced.

3. Eze 45:11-12 The ephah and the bath shall be of the same measure, the bath containing one tenth of a homer, and the ephah one tenth of a homer; the homer shall be the standard measure. (12) The shekel shall be twenty gerahs; twenty shekels plus twenty-five shekels plus fifteen shekels shall be your mina.
Hmmm. Are they really going to be the literal measurements in the kingdom? Maybe that part is not literal, just as the horses and horsemen in Eze 38:4 are probably not literal.

4. Lack of a NT reference to a literal temple. "The tabernacle of David that is fallen" isn't good enough, because that is a reference to the Gentiles. The best I can come up with is that Rom 11 says that all Israel shall be saved. Maybe the literal temple being built is not important enough to be reiterated in the NT, even though this is what will happen.

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US?

Actually Sulley doesn't really argue that the whole thing is literal. He has some of the priests immortal, and the prince being Christ, which can only be done by spiritualising it. And I have never myself been wedded to Sulley's pictures. I have no idea if the units are reeds (huge temple) or cubits (smaller temple).

So where does that leave us? With 9 chapters of a temple that was never built. Israel will repent and be accepted by God, then the positive prediction WILL be fulfilled. Ezekiel 40-48 is one of those. This is the argument that I find persuasive.

But it is not a first principle. And I might well be wrong.

Edited by Weasley, 04 November 2008 - 11:38 AM.
typo


#45 Davvers

Davvers

    Pi

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 12:28 PM

Weasley

Again, not sure I have reached a definitive conclusion, however some thoughts:

1. A house of God in some form, which operates as a centre for worship in Jerusalem as per Isa 2 seems a certainty.

2. Some aspects of the law of Moses will be in operation and will involve all nations, as referred to in Zech 14 where people come to keep the feast of tabernacles.

3. Neither of the above prove or disprove the use of animal sacrifices in the kingdom. However we know that it is not impossible for those related to the sacrifice of Christ to also offer animal sacrifices as many did so in the 1st century without impingeing on their salvation. I realise that was before the temple was destroyed, but it does show at least that animal sacrifices v Christ's sacrifice are not as mutually exclusive as we might assume.

D

#46 Davvers

Davvers

    Pi

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 01:40 PM

I came across something years ago and converted to .html format

Please see attached



Composer

Thanks for this - there is a reasonable body of evidence there for his case. However, as his suggestion is that the restoration temple was built, at least partially, to Ezekiel's pattern, I wonder if there is any archaeological evidence in Jerusalem for a structure with features matching Ezekiel's temple. Even if the sanctuary itself cannot be dug up from underneath the dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque, you might expect some evidence of ground works or other buildings/gates etc in the surrounding area? Does anyone know if there is anything like this?

D

#47 Mark Taunton

Mark Taunton

    Rho

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,770 posts

Posted 04 November 2008 - 07:26 PM

However, as his suggestion is that the restoration temple was built, at least partially, to Ezekiel's pattern, I wonder if there is any archaeological evidence in Jerusalem for a structure with features matching Ezekiel's temple. Even if the sanctuary itself cannot be dug up from underneath the dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque, you might expect some evidence of ground works or other buildings/gates etc in the surrounding area? Does anyone know if there is anything like this?

I strongly recommend reading Leen Ritmeyer's books about the temple mount, of which the most detailed is his recent one called "The Quest - Revealing the Temple Mount in Jerusalem" (Carta, Jerusalem, 2006; ISBN: 965-220-628-8). (Leen is a Christadelphian, an archaeological architect and teacher, and was chief architect on the temple mount excavations which were made after the Six-Day War. See http://www.ritmeyer.com/, the web site he operates with his wife Kathleen, who is also a professional archaelogist.) Sadly, I do not have my own copy at hand to be able to quote the salient details for you, but suffice to say that I am sure the answer to your question is no, and that the details of the temples that have stood there do not match Ezekiel's account.

#48 Davvers

Davvers

    Pi

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPipPip
  • 672 posts

Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:37 PM

However, as his suggestion is that the restoration temple was built, at least partially, to Ezekiel's pattern, I wonder if there is any archaeological evidence in Jerusalem for a structure with features matching Ezekiel's temple. Even if the sanctuary itself cannot be dug up from underneath the dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque, you might expect some evidence of ground works or other buildings/gates etc in the surrounding area? Does anyone know if there is anything like this?

I strongly recommend reading Leen Ritmeyer's books about the temple mount, of which the most detailed is his recent one called "The Quest - Revealing the Temple Mount in Jerusalem" (Carta, Jerusalem, 2006; ISBN: 965-220-628-8). (Leen is a Christadelphian, an archaeological architect and teacher, and was chief architect on the temple mount excavations which were made after the Six-Day War. See http://www.ritmeyer.com/, the web site he operates with his wife Kathleen, who is also a professional archaelogist.) Sadly, I do not have my own copy at hand to be able to quote the salient details for you, but suffice to say that I am sure the answer to your question is no, and that the details of the temples that have stood there do not match Ezekiel's account.


Thanks Mark - looks very interesting. I had heard his name before, but now I have added a couple of his books to my 'Christmas' list!

Over the weekend was thinking about some of the difficulties in relating Ezekiel's temple to the kingdom age. In particular the status of the Holy Place and the Most Holy. In Solomon's temple the structure incorporates doors at the entrance of both (1 Kings 7:50 and 2 Chr 4:22) and the vail hangs immediately behind the folding doors at the entrance to the Most Holy.

The presence of this barrier between the Holy and Most Holy, and consequently the limited access by the high priest has a significance explained in Heb 9:8:

"By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing"

Ezekiel's temple appears to maintain the same structure (Ezek 41:3,23-25) with doors closing off the Most Holy. Now this seems odd to me that if Ezekiel's temple is for the future age, that it would follow a structure that the spirit specifically tells us represents the situation BEFORE Christ came and removed the vail.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

D

#49 pearl

pearl

    Delta

  • Christadelphian
  • Pip
  • 48 posts

Posted 10 November 2008 - 06:57 PM

Our thoughts on animal sacrifice may be tainted by the fact that we get our meat from a shop and do not kill it ourselves. We don't like the idea of killing animals, but an animal has died just for us to enjoy a meal.
I think that because life will be longer in the millennium than it is now people will have to be reminded about death by animal sacrifices.

#50 N. Lu

N. Lu
  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:01 PM

We have just finished Ezekiel in our family daily readings. We discussed it quite a bit, but really feel as if we are still in the dark about what Ezekiel's temple represents. Is it a future prophecy? Did it already have a initial fulfillment? What is meant by the detailed measurements? We have an idea that it has something to do with Christ and the faithful in the Kingdom. We were interested in the passage in chapter 43 that speaks of a restored house of Israel and draws a connection between and pattern (the measurements?) and living in the law of the temple. Any comments?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymuvDpQ-Fg&feature=player_embedded

#51 Biblaridion

Biblaridion

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 02 September 2011 - 02:10 AM

Dear all,



I have just completed a commentary on Daniel that examines the importance of the Temple in the book of Daniel. I believe that Daniel was written (a least a first draft) during the Persian period in order to explain why the Temple was not built during the reign of Cyrus. It was built during the reign of Darius Hystapsis contemporary with the ministries of Zechariah/Haggai. All the stories in the early part of Daniel are linked with the Temple. The question that must be asked is why the restored Temple was not laid out in accordance with Ezekiel’s blueprint? (By the way Sulley’s architectural reconstruction is wrong there are no circular buildings in any of the Israelite Temples) My commentary on Daniel traces the theme of the temple from Daniel’s time through the Maccabean period to the time of Christ and beyond. The fact is that Jesus is the Temple that Daniel and Ezekiel looked forward too and the measuring of a new Temple in the book of Revelation (ch.11) is one that consists of people. Here is what I have to say on the subject of Ezekiel’s Temple in the conclusion to my commentary:



The ‘Seventy Prophecy’ is temple oriented and the expected eschatological Atonement and anointing of the Most Holy at the end of the age pre-supposes that there is a Sanctuary even after 490 years of desolations. However, unlike Ezekiel, the book of Daniel does not end with a vision of the temple but a description of a period of great tribulation culminating in resurrection and judgement.

It is instructive to inquire why Ezekiel and Daniel have such different endings. Many conservative scholars regard Ezekiel’s temple as an eschatological temple that is yet to be built. Although it is not the intention to offer a commentary on Ezekiel’s temple, the question that has been posed merits a short digression. Commenting on the disregard for topographic and historical realities as well as the dimensions of the temple, Daniel Block remarks, “All in all Ezekiel’s scheme appears highly contrived, casting doubt on any interpretation that expects a literal fulfilment of his plan.” Block adds, “It seems best to interpret [Ezekiel] chs. 40-48 ideationally. The issue for the prophet is not physically geography but spiritual realities.” [1] Thomas Renz concurs with his observation that, “A main feature of this new world is that the sacred and the profane are clearly demarcated. This must also be the reason for the two dimensional nature of the architectural plan in the vision, which has given rise to the use of the term ‘blueprint.’[2] Vertical measurements are not mentioned, because height is not important in marking boundaries” [3]…… Renz concludes that, “The restructuring of space in the new society will make Israel ashamed of her past iniquities which have necessitated the stricter regulations concerning areas, boundaries and access to territory (43:10-12). The vision is an intentional effort to control access to space and in this sense “territorial rhetoric”.[4]

Other objections to a literal reading are that, “….the revelation is not revealed to the king (as the temple builder), but to a prophet…” (Renz, 1999:122) and, “Nowhere is anyone commanded to build it. The man with the measuring line takes Ezekiel on a tour of an existing structure already made”. (Block, 1998:505) Moreover, as noted by Alexander, a messianic interpretation [of Ezek. chs. 40-48] is excluded by the facts that natural children are envisaged for the prince (Ezek 46:16) and, even more important, that he must make a sin offering for himself (45:22).[5] Block (1998:505) presents the following summary; “Ezekiel’s final vision presents a lofty spiritual ideal: Where God is, there is Zion. Where God is, there is order and the fulfilment of all his promises. Furthermore, where the presence of God is recognized, there is purity and holiness. Ezekiel hereby lays the foundation for the Pauline spiritualization of the temple. Under the new covenant even Gentiles’ communities may be transformed into the living temple of God (1 Cor.3:16-17). Moreover, through the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God, individual Christians become temples, residences of deity (1 Cor. 6:19)”.

In this sense Daniel and Ezekiel end on the same note. The temple that is envisioned is spiritualized. For Daniel the temple becomes a resurrected community at the end of the age. Block notes that, “Closer adherence to Ezekiel is evident in early Christian writings, most notably Rev.21-22, which displays a series of important links with our texts.”[6] Moreover, the ‘time of trouble’ of Daniel 12:1 corresponds with the end of the “Seals” in Revelation 5-7, where we encounter, “…the ones who come out of the great tribulation” (Rev. 7:14). The ‘great tribulation’ is the three-and-one-half year Roman war that precipitates the dispersion of the Jewish nation. The annunciation of a new temple (the birth of Christ) opens the last seventy of Daniel’s 490 years and the removal of the Jewish temple closes the same period, thus confirming the New Covenant. This parallel reading of Revelation/Daniel understands both prophecies as discontinuous – for although both prophecies were flexible enough to allow a complete outworking in the first century,[7] this was disallowed by the unfaithfulness of the Jewish nation and corruption of the church by Judaisers. The dispersion of the Jewish nation in AD 70 interrupted the prophetic programme which could only recommence with the return of the Diaspora from their prolonged exile. The prophetic interruptus is therefore to be sought in the space between the first century Seals and last days Trumpets, which both conclude with a three-and-a-half year tribulation, totalling the interrupted seven years of Daniel.

The ‘great tribulation’ of the Seals also shows parallelisms with the ‘martyr-witnessing’ of the Trumpets.[8] The Trumpets herald the eschatological Day of Atonement at the end of the 490 years.[9] Temple liturgy and the Day of Atonement inform the background[10] of the witnessing in Rev. 11, which is a parenthesis within the Trumpet section. Three-and-a-half years of witnessing completes the second half of Daniel’s last “week” and therefore it completes the 490 years by introducing the Great Day of Atonement Jubilee that reveals the Son of Man coming out of the cosmic sanctuary (cf. the high priest on the Day of Atonement) with the clouds of heaven.



Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev.21:2)



But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev.21:22)

<br clear="all"> [1] Daniel Isaac Block, The Book of Ezekiel: chapters 25-48, Volume 2,(Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing,1998),505,502



[2] “The only vertical measurement included in the vision (in 40:5) shows the qualitative change from holy to common. It is noteworthy that the temple complex takes over the functions of a city (cf. 40:2)......” Thomas Renz, The rhetorical function of the book of Ezekiel,(Brill, Leiden: Boston,1999),123



[3] Thomas Renz,Ezekiel,122



[4] Thomas Renz draws heavily on D. L. Stevenson’s work on “territorial rhetoric”: “My thesis is that the Vision of Transformation is territorial rhetoric produced in the context of the Babylonian exile to restructure the society of Israel by asserting yhwh’s territorial claim as the only King of Israel”. D. L. Stevenson, The Vision of Transformation: The Territorial Rhetoric of Ezekiel 40-48, (SBLDS 154; Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1996),3



[5] Ralph H. Alexander, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary Vol. 6,(Grand Rapids: Zondervan 1986),974



[6]Block, Ezekiel, see page 505 for examples.



[7] Early in the first century there was an expectation (even among the apostles) that the return of Lord and the fulfilment of all the end time prophecies was imminent; “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep”. (1 Thess.4:15 see also Matt. 10:23; Matt. 24:34; 1 Thess. 4:15; 2 Thess. 2:1-2). This indicates that Daniel/Revelation allowed the possibility of a complete first century outworking contingent on the faithfulness of the nation and the church.



[8] Revelation 10;1–11;13 parallels 7;1-17 as both sections serve functionally similar roles as a parentheses in the midst of their accompanying series of judgments, they also both present a delay in their respective series of judgments. Schussler Fiorenza, comments on Revelation chapters 10–11, “they have the same structural function within Revelation as the interlude of chapter 7” E. Schussler Fiorenza, Revelation: Vision of a Just World, (Minneapolis, 1981), 74. See also: P.E. Hughes, The Book of Revelation, (Pillar NT Commentaries; Grand Rapids, 1990), 92.



[9]The trumpet section is based on the liturgy of the Day of Atonement. Trumpets were sounded at the commencement of the civil New Year ten days before the Day of Atonement.



[10] Despite prolific Temple imagery/liturgy occurring in the Apocalypse the impact has been marginal on interpretive approaches and the topos is barely noted in commentaries. Recently this neglect has been addressed (1997/1999) by studies from Brigg and Spatafora(s), who investigate the use of Temple imagery in apocryphal and OT sources and the subsequent development of the Temple theme in the Apocalypse. The common feature shared by these recent works is recognition of the importance of temple imagery/liturgy in the Apocalypse, particularly the importance of the Day of Atonement, a feature also noted by H. A. Whittaker. Robert A. Brigg, Jewish Temple Imagery in the Book of Revelation (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol 10: Peter Lang Publishing, 1999); Spatafora(s) observes that, “All other studies and commentaries appear to analyse the individual recurrences, but they fail to see a relationship between them”. Andrew Spatafora and Andrea Spatafora, From the ‘Temple of God’ to God as the Temple: A Biblical Theological Study of the Temple in the Book of Revelation,(Pontificia Univ. Gregoriana: Italy,1997),7-9; H.A. Whittaker, Revelation: A Biblical Approach, (Lichfield: Staffs, 1973), 104-5
  • Huldah likes this

#52 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:07 PM

Interesting comments there Bibliaridon. Little off topic, but not much, it would be easy to see Ezek 37 as a spiritual ressurrection, but your comments on Ezek 38-39 would be .... ?

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#53 Biblaridion

Biblaridion

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 06 September 2011 - 09:51 AM

Hello,

An explanation of Ezekiel 37-39 would be going completly off topic and I am not sure I can do it justice here........it would require a new thread. However, without backing it up, I can say that I do not believe that it describes an invasion of Israel by Russia before the Lord returns. Anyway, you have inspired me to look at it in depth and I have put it on the list of topics for the ejournal (if the other editors approve) to examine the issue again.

Back to the topic of the Temple in Ezekiel/Daniel..............as I said the focus of Daniel is the Temple and I devote much of my commentary to the topic. For example the burning of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar is typified by the three friends in the firery furnace and the Babylonian period in Daniel is an inclusio that commences with the removal of the Temple vessels and ends with the desecration of those same Temple vessels. The Persian period finds Daniel in the Lion's den and then he is metaphorically resurrected.........this reflects the restoration of the Temple under Darius Hystapsis. The Temple was not rebuilt by Cyrus but 21 years later by Darius - this is the 21 day delay referred to in chapter 10. Daniel prays for the restoration of the Sanctuary in chapter 9 and is told of a further 490 of desolations.......Jesus uses the book of Daniel when predicting the destruction of the Temple. The Son of Man coming in clouds in chapter 7 reflects the high priest coming into the divine presence in clouds of incense on the Temple feast known as the Day of Atonement....etc etc. The desecration of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in the Maccabee period is also encounterd. Finally the theme of the Temple can be traced through to the NT and the birth of Jesus as the New Temple can be linked with Daniel time lines etc.
The whole thrust of the NT is that Jesus replaces the Temple. The Old Covenant and Herod's Temple were removed in order to put this beyond doubt. There is no way that animal sacrifice will ever be re-introduced. If the mortal population need to be reminded of Christ sacrifice all they have to do is ask him and he will show them the imprints in his hands. Atonement has been made once and for all so no need for another sacrifice or high priest. So Ezekiel's Temple could have been built after the restoration but it was not built...........Israel was not faithful enough........they nearly did not complete the small Temple that they built and had to be reprimanded for neglecting the issue. Last but not least......as the apostles and Stephen made clear (and they killed him for saying it).........God never wanted a Temple (permanent dwelling place) but was happy to dwell in a tent. A tent can be deconstructed and re-errected.....................the tent (tabernacle) symbolises Jesus.

Paul
  • Huldah likes this

#54 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:32 PM

Could it be that the symbolism of the apocalypse helps us to read the prophets like Ezekiel in a spiritual context? If so, we have host of dry bones in ch 37 becoming the great multitude of Revelation. The hordes of Gog - Magog representing the hostile forces set against the people of God destined to be the exact opposite. EVERY bone was buried (Ez 39:14-15) indicating the unalterable dissolution of Satan's forces. The final temple scenes which were never physically built (or will be)- stand clearly in contrast symbolically as the true temple, the union of God and His people ("I saw no temple therein").

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#55 Biblaridion

Biblaridion

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:59 AM

Hello,



Like I said I don’t really want to go into it in depth right now but maybe a couple of pointers for further investigation based on work that I did some years back on Revelation. The Gog Magog attack in Ezekiel is the same one described as in Revelation 20 (although standard CND interpretation denies this). So at the end of the thousand years the second resurrection occurs and this is coincidentally (sic) the same time that Satan is released from the abyss. This is obviously not a coincidence – the last resurrection leads to the final confrontation. How might this happen? I suggest that those who have been rejected from the kingdom and who see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom and themselves cast out, will go forth and agitate among the nations. We might suppose that they say something like this; “who do this lot think they are? They want to Lord it over us and they are sitting peacefully in the “camp of the saints” (i.e., the word camp denotes a temporary dwelling place) in “unwalled villages” – let us go up and destroy them with our atom bombs and jet fighters etc”. The conclusion to the story is that they are destroyed on the mountains of Israel without even reaching the camp of the saints. Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



How can “death” and “Hades” be cast into the fire? Obviously we are dealing with Synecdoche or ellipsis – namely, those that posses the nature of “death and sin” are annihilated. After this point the population will consist solely of immortals – no more mortality is present. So the last resurrection sorts out the wheat from the chaff- all those who join the Gog/Magog alliance (those rejected at the resurrection) are destroyed. The whole story is in the form of a mythic pattern but the points are succinct – the final confrontation and release of Satan is brought on by the last resurrection. That is how I read it, but as I said I will have to do more work Ezekiel. I hope this is helpful.



Paul

#56 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,354 posts

Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:13 AM

I find Ezekiel's temple really confusing. None of the three possibilities for explaining it seem to make sense.

1. It has already been fulfilled - not that I can see.

2. It will happen in the future - seems impossible considering the amount of detail concerning a Levitical priesthood, sin offerings, circumcision, etc.

3. It was a conditional prophecy that could have happened but never did - seems impossible considering how hard it would be to build that temple with the resources available in the post-exile/Maccabean period, plus the details in the last couple of chapters that seem to be clearly Kingdom-age events.

I suppose there is always option 4:

4. It's not talking about a literal building at all - but then what is it talking about and why so much detail of the measurements/offerings?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#57 Biblaridion

Biblaridion

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:30 AM

I find Ezekiel's temple really confusing. None of the three possibilities for explaining it seem to make sense.

1. It has already been fulfilled - not that I can see.

2. It will happen in the future - seems impossible considering the amount of detail concerning a Levitical priesthood, sin offerings, circumcision, etc.

3. It was a conditional prophecy that could have happened but never did - seems impossible considering how hard it would be to build that temple with the resources available in the post-exile/Maccabean period, plus the details in the last couple of chapters that seem to be clearly Kingdom-age events.

I suppose there is always option 4:

4. It's not talking about a literal building at all - but then what is it talking about and why so much detail of the measurements/offerings?


Hi,

Yes, you are right it is confusing and you have listed all the posibilities ( I don't think that I can add to it) and I agree that points (1) + (2) are unlikely. You have narrowed it down to points (3) +(4) and these seem the most probable but as you point out they are also not without problems. It is interesting to note (but I don't know exactly what it means) that the prophecy concentrates on the Zadokite branch of the priesthood - the scholars reckon (but they are not always right) that this shows a push by that particular family to gain power - also the mention of the "prince" shows that Israel no longer has a king but a vassal king (nasi) under the Persian empire - this is what happened after the exile............no more independant kings. Basically, they were ruled by a combination of priests and appointed princes.........however, the priests after the exile became more powerful.....more like aristocratic rulers. Anyway, the Zadokites evenuatually formed the priestly class know as the Sadducces (and we know how they behaved). Another interesting thing is that the Sadducces denied much of Daniel's theology (resurrection/angels etc). Some scholars see the difference between Daniel/Ezekiel as demonstrating (or anticipating) the different post-exilic power struggles between the priestly class/monarchy etc....but I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. My own investigations into Ezekiel's Temple continue but the vision was in order to "make them ashamed" and should probably be understood as spiritual with the possibility of fulfillment by the Zadokites if they were faithfuil.................however, they were not faithful........instead the Zadokites (Sadducces) destroyed the true temple.

Paul

#58 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,354 posts

Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:16 AM

Interesting regarding the Zadokites and Sadduccees - where is that connection established? I thought that in the time of the Maccabees the original high priestly line was lost and it was taken over/usurped by the Hasmonean royal family. Correct me if I'm wrong about that - it's a couple of years since I researched the matter :)
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#59 Biblaridion

Biblaridion

    Lambda

  • Christadelphian
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:37 PM

Interesting regarding the Zadokites and Sadduccees - where is that connection established? I thought that in the time of the Maccabees the original high priestly line was lost and it was taken over/usurped by the Hasmonean royal family. Correct me if I'm wrong about that - it's a couple of years since I researched the matter :)


Yes, you are right about the Hasmoneans and the priestly Maccabee family but at a later stage the Saduccees became prominent and they are descended from Sadoc (Zadok priestly branch) - at least that is what the historians/scholars conclude.

Paul

#60 Lectron

Lectron

    Sigma

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,100 posts

Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:09 AM

This is an intensely interesting subject I have touched on previously here and needs a bit of research, but the Hasmonean line consisted of ten rulers; no more, no less and further, 3 of them were uprooted by the schemeing Edomite Herod the great. Add to this the symbology of Daniel 7 and the events surrounding the banishment of Archelaus to Vienne in AD6 and the consternation of the Sadducees upon losing in effect the Royal staff and then the 3 day long discussion of the 12 year old Jesus with the then leaders of the Temple class (Herodians and Saducees). Its enough to make you write a book!

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users