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Saved before water baptism


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#1 Trinitarian

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 09:49 PM

The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before they were water baptized. They had already received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48). At least 5 Greek lexicons state that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

1. The very same gift of the greatest thing man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God and establishes the unity of the church (TDNT 3:349 - isos).
2. Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 341 - hope).
3. Respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, page 609 - sphragizw).
4. In the metaphor of the sealing of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing... (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 1003 - seal).
5. For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old... (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 3:701 - Spirit).

Furthermore, according to 1 John 4:13 we can know that we abide in God because He has given (didwmi) us of His Spirit. The Gentiles were "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized (Acts 11:17 cf. Acts 15:8) therefore the Gentiles abode in God before they were water baptized.

For those who deny that the Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized instead of citing passages which you may think water baptism is necessary for all to be saved (please start another thread so this one will not become too fragmented) please cite a Greek lexicon that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost and how one can dwell in God and be lost.

Thank you

- Trinitarian

#2 Lectron

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 10:27 PM

The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before they were water baptized. They had already received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48). At least 5 Greek lexicons state that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

1. The very same gift of the greatest thing man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God and establishes the unity of the church (TDNT 3:349 - isos).
2. Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 341 - hope).
3. Respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, page 609 - sphragizw).
4. In the metaphor of the sealing of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing... (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 1003 - seal).
5. For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old... (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 3:701 - Spirit).

Furthermore, according to 1 John 4:13 we can know that we abide in God because He has given (didwmi) us of His Spirit. The Gentiles were "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized (Acts 11:17 cf. Acts 15:8) therefore the Gentiles abode in God before they were water baptized.

For those who deny that the Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized instead of citing passages which you may think water baptism is necessary for all to be saved (please start another thread so this one will not become too fragmented) please cite a Greek lexicon that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost and how one can dwell in God and be lost.

Thank you

- Trinitarian


Your proposition is long on commentaries and short on scripture.

The endowing of the holy spirit upon the houshold of Cornelius should not be taken as a rule - a contextual reading of the passage shows it to be a sign to Peter and ultimately the whole church of God's inclusion of the gentiles into His plan of salvation.
John 4:7-21 is a homily on the love of God and the things that flow from it and is conditional upon abiding in that love.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#3 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 12:45 AM

1. I cited lexicons. I have not cited one commentary. So your first assertion is false from the get go. These are the definitions for the Greek words. If you want to make up your own definitions then words can have any meaning which really means they have no meaning.
Again cite one Greek lexicon that says one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost. You didn't because you can't.
Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before they were water baptized.

2. The fact that the Gentiles were "given" the Spirit demonstrated they were already abiding in God (1 John 4:13) before they were water baptized. If one is "in God" does that describe a saved or lost person?

#4 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:22 AM

The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before they were water baptized. They had already received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48). At least 5 Greek lexicons state that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.


So, what about the Eunuch in Acts 8?

#5 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 02:23 AM

I plan on addressing other passages/conversions concerning this issue in another thread (or threads) but for now the subject of this thread has to do with the fact that the Gentiles (Acts 10) were indeed saved before they were water baptized.
This obvious truth ought not to be denied.

#6 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 02:31 AM

I plan on addressing other passages/conversions concerning this issue in another thread (or threads) but for now the subject of this thread has to do with the fact that the Gentiles (Acts 10) were indeed saved before they were water baptized.
This obvious truth ought not to be denied.


Your opening post has this statement --

The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before they were water baptized. They had already received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48). At least 5 Greek lexicons state that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.


So, I am in fact addressing your argument. You are equating being "saved" with "receiving the gift of the holy spirit", correct? My question is, what do you do with the Eunuch in Acts 8? There is no record of him receiving the gift of the holy spirit.

#7 Corky

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 02:38 AM

How about this question: Was water Baptism Old Testament or New? The evidence says that it was OT but that would have been fulfilled when the New Testament was complete and the Old Testament vanished away with the destruction of the OT Temple and priesthood.

Jesus was baptized because it was to "fulfill" all righteousness - in the same way that he went about fulfilling a lot of the OT during his life, starting with his miraculous birth and his circumcision. The law and the prophets concerning him were all fulfilled in his life on earth and in that generation in the first century (Luke 21:22, 32).

If John the Baptist was introducing some thing new under the sun, the Pharisees and Sadducees would have asked him what he was doing baptizing people with water. No, it wasn't new, it was Old Testament. The New Testament baptism is "with spirit", so why did the apostles still baptize? Because the temple still stood and the Old Testament was still in force until after one was in Christ.

#8 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 02:49 AM

Chris,


This is from my first post

For those who deny that the Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized instead of citing passages which you may think water baptism is necessary for all to be saved (please start another thread so this one will not become too fragmented) please cite a Greek lexicon that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost and how one can dwell in God and be lost.

When the Gentiles had the gift of the Holy Spirit were they saved or unsaved? If you say they were still unsaved then please cite a lexicon (title and page number) that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost as well as explaining how one can be "in God" and still lost.

#9 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:03 AM

Chris,


This is from my first post

For those who deny that the Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized instead of citing passages which you may think water baptism is necessary for all to be saved (please start another thread so this one will not become too fragmented) please cite a Greek lexicon that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost and how one can dwell in God and be lost.

When the Gentiles had the gift of the Holy Spirit were they saved or unsaved? If you say they were still unsaved then please cite a lexicon (title and page number) that states one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost as well as explaining how one can be "in God" and still lost.


First I want to establish the criterion you are placing on being "saved." According to you, it is the receiving of the gift of the holy spirit that gives evidence of salvation... yes or no? If yes, what then do you think about the Eunuch in Acts 8?

#10 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:38 AM

First I want to establish the criterion you are placing on being "saved." According to you, it is the receiving of the gift of the holy spirit that gives evidence of salvation... yes or no? If yes, what then do you think about the Eunuch in Acts 8?

----------------------------------------------------

If one has the gift of the Holy Spirit this person is saved. The Gentiles had the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized. Therefore the Gentiles were already saved before they were water baptized. I'll be more than happy to discuss anyone else from Scripture you want to but I want to first know whether or not you believe if the Gentiles were saved or not when they had the gift of the Holy Spirit.

#11 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:46 AM

If one has the gift of the Holy Spirit this person is saved.


Okay. How do you establish this Biblically?

#12 composer

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 04:05 AM

To presume one is ' saved ' negates and degrades the Judgment Seat to a mere ' rubber stamp ' for some.

Thank you

#13 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 04:47 AM

I have 5 Greek lexicons that state if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

#14 Mark Taunton

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 05:21 AM

I have 5 Greek lexicons that state if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

What matters is what the Bible says. On this point, the writer to the Hebrews says:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So those in earlier times who were privileged to receive the gifts of the holy spirit were not saved because of that. They could (and some did) fall away, beyond repentance.

#15 IDF

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 06:02 AM

I have 5 Greek lexicons that state if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

What matters is what the Bible says. On this point, the writer to the Hebrews says:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So those in earlier times who were privileged to receive the gifts of the holy spirit were not saved because of that. They could (and some did) fall away, beyond repentance.



Follow up for that,

Mat 10:22 Everyone will hate you because you are committed to me. But the person who patiently endures to the end will be saved.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luk 8:12 Some people are like seeds that were planted along the road. They hear the word, but then the devil comes. He takes the word away from them so that they don't believe and become saved.


Luk 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace!"

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Act 2:21 Then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Act 4:12 No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person."

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 16:30 Then he took Paul and Silas outside and asked, "Sirs, what do I have to do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you and your family will be saved."
Act 16:32 They spoke the Lord's word to the jailer and everyone in his home.

Rom 5:10 If the death of his Son restored our relationship with God while we were still his enemies, we are even more certain that, because of this restored relationship, the life of his Son will save us.
Rom 5:11 In addition, our Lord Jesus Christ lets us continue to brag about God. After all, it is through Christ that we now have this restored relationship with God.

Rom 10:9 If you declare that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God brought him back to life, you will be saved.

2Ti 1:9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness.
2Ti 1:10 Now with the coming of our Savior Christ Jesus, he has revealed it. Christ has destroyed death, and through the Good News he has brought eternal life into full view.
2Ti 1:11 I was appointed to be a messenger of this Good News, an apostle, and a teacher.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Eph 2:8 God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

1Co 15:2 In addition, you are saved by this Good News if you hold on to the doctrine I taught you, unless you believed it without thinking it over.

1Co 5:5 hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1Co 1:18 The message about the cross is nonsense to those who are being destroyed, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#16 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 07:36 AM

What matters is what the Bible says. On this point, the writer to the Hebrews says:
[indent=1]Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So those in earlier times who were privileged to receive the gifts of the holy spirit were not saved because of that. They could (and some did) fall away, beyond repentance.

---------------------------------

It matters what the Bible says? What was the New Testament originally written in? Greek. Words have meanings (otherwise words can mean anything we want them to mean thus they lose all meaning). In Alice in Wonderland Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean..."
You used the word "point". What does the word "point" mean. Since you reject what the Greek lexicons say I want you to supply a definition for the word "point" without using any sources (dictionaries, thesauruses, etc) - nor do I want your opinion. Because one's opinion as to what a word means is just that.....an opinion.

So once again we see zero lexicons cited that show one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and still be unsaved.

On a side note even if the Hebrew text you mentioned shows that one can lose their salvation (disputed)...they still had salvation to begin with. One can't lose something they don't have. The Gentiles by having the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved.

#17 Lectron

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:15 AM

So Trinitarian, the premis of your question regarding the household of Cornelius would seem to rest on the conviction that being "saved" is a one off irreversible move by God - this is counter to the overwhelming evidence of scripture (some of it now on this thread).

Christadelphians would express their faith drawn from scripture like this:-

1] I was saved
2] I am being saved
3] I will be saved

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#18 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:28 AM

So Trinitarian, the premis of your question regarding the household of Cornelius would seem to rest on the conviction that being "saved" is a one off irreversible move by God - this is counter to the overwhelming evidence of scripture (some of it now on this thread).

Christadelphians would express their faith drawn from scripture like this:-

1] I was saved
2] I am being saved
3] I will be saved


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am saying that they were saved before they were water baptized. Christadelphians say one must be water baptized before they are saved. However the conversion of these Gentiles proves otherwise. If one is wrong on salvation it doesn't really matter whatever else a person/group is right on. Furthermore, if one is not saved to begin with then it is useless to argue if that person can lose their salvation. As I conveyed earlier, one can not lose what one does not have.

#19 Lectron

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:31 AM

What matters is what the Bible says. On this point, the writer to the Hebrews says:
[indent=1]Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So those in earlier times who were privileged to receive the gifts of the holy spirit were not saved because of that. They could (and some did) fall away, beyond repentance.

---------------------------------

It matters what the Bible says? What was the New Testament originally written in? Greek. Words have meanings (otherwise words can mean anything we want them to mean thus they lose all meaning). In Alice in Wonderland Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean..."
You used the word "point". What does the word "point" mean. Since you reject what the Greek lexicons say I want you to supply a definition for the word "point" without using any sources (dictionaries, thesauruses, etc) - nor do I want your opinion. Because one's opinion as to what a word means is just that.....an opinion.

So once again we see zero lexicons cited that show one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and still be unsaved.

On a side note even if the Hebrew text you mentioned shows that one can lose their salvation (disputed)...they still had salvation to begin with. One can't lose something they don't have. The Gentiles by having the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved.


So what difference in meaning will a lexicon give to Heb 6:4? the meaning is plain in just about any bible version. There are no greek nuances to be teased out, it's a plain open case.
Come to that neither do your lexical appeals in post #1

We don't need to cite lexicons in this matter and you need to ask whether your equating of irreversible salvation with the gifts of the Holy Spirit is not somewhat alice in wonderland.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#20 Lectron

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:36 AM

So Trinitarian, the premis of your question regarding the household of Cornelius would seem to rest on the conviction that being "saved" is a one off irreversible move by God - this is counter to the overwhelming evidence of scripture (some of it now on this thread).

Christadelphians would express their faith drawn from scripture like this:-

1] I was saved
2] I am being saved
3] I will be saved


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am saying that they were saved before they were water baptized. Christadelphians say one must be water baptized before they are saved. However the conversion of these Gentiles proves otherwise. If one is wrong on salvation it doesn't really matter whatever else a person/group is right on. Furthermore, if one is not saved to begin with then it is useless to argue if that person can lose their salvation. As I conveyed earlier, one can not lose what one does not have.


The most important factor in salvation is grace. Baptism is an essential step to salvation. God has the privelige of making exceptions not us.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#21 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:43 AM

1. What is your point about Hebrews 6? If they lost their salvation then they did have salvation to begin with. The Gentiles had salvation before water baptism.
2.You nor anyone else has cited any lexicon sowing that one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost.
3. It is not the gifts (plural) of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 but the gift (singular) of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit being the Holy Spirit Himself.
4. Prove that what happened to the Gentiles is an "exception". That is cite one clear cut case Luke gives to us where any Gentile was ever told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. You asserted it as an exception thus you must prove.

#22 IDF

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 09:42 AM

1. What is your point about Hebrews 6? If they lost their salvation then they did have salvation to begin with. The Gentiles had salvation before water baptism.
2.You nor anyone else has cited any lexicon sowing that one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost.
3. It is not the gifts (plural) of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 but the gift (singular) of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit being the Holy Spirit Himself.
4. Prove that what happened to the Gentiles is an "exception". That is cite one clear cut case Luke gives to us where any Gentile was ever told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. You asserted it as an exception thus you must prove.


I'm sure we could debate back and forth baptised, not baptised, whatever, but if the sole purpose of this discussion is to debate a minor technicality in scripture and not with the view of edifying and of ephesians 4, then this discussion is not showing much of the fruit of the spirit and essentially pointless.

Eph 4:1 I, a prisoner in the Lord, encourage you to live the kind of life which proves that God has called you.
Eph 4:2 Be humble and gentle in every way. Be patient with each other and lovingly accept each other.
Eph 4:3 Through the peace that ties you together, do your best to maintain the unity that the Spirit gives.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything.
Eph 4:7 God's favor has been given to each of us. It was measured out to us by Christ who gave it.
Eph 4:8 That's why the Scriptures say: "When he went to the highest place, he took captive those who had captured us and gave gifts to people."
Eph 4:9 Now what does it mean that he went up except that he also had gone down to the lowest parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 The one who had gone down also went up above all the heavens so that he fills everything.
Eph 4:11 He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church.
Eph 4:12 Their purpose is to prepare God's people, to serve, and to build up the body of Christ.
Eph 4:13 This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God's Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard.
Eph 4:14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed and carried about by all kinds of teachings that change like the wind. We will no longer be influenced by people who use cunning and clever strategies to lead us astray.
Eph 4:15 Instead, as we lovingly speak the truth, we will grow up completely in our relationship to Christ, who is the head.
Eph 4:16 He makes the whole body fit together and unites it through the support of every joint. As each and every part does its job, he makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Eph 4:17 So I tell you and encourage you in the Lord's name not to live any longer like other people in the world. Their minds are set on worthless things.
Eph 4:18 They can't understand because they are in the dark. They are excluded from the life that God approves of because of their ignorance and stubbornness.
Eph 4:19 Since they no longer have any sense of shame, they have become promiscuous. They practice every kind of sexual perversion with a constant desire for more.
Eph 4:20 But that is not what you learned from Christ's teachings.
Eph 4:21 You have certainly heard his message and have been taught his ways. The truth is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught to change the way you were living. The person you used to be will ruin you through desires that deceive you.
Eph 4:23 However, you were taught to have a new attitude.
Eph 4:24 You were also taught to become a new person created to be like God, truly righteous and holy.
Eph 4:25 So then, get rid of lies. Speak the truth to each other, because we are all members of the same body.
Eph 4:26 Be angry without sinning. Don't go to bed angry.
Eph 4:27 Don't give the devil any opportunity to work.
Eph 4:28 Thieves must quit stealing and, instead, they must work hard. They should do something good with their hands so that they'll have something to share with those in need.
Eph 4:29 Don't say anything that would hurt another person. Instead, speak only what is good so that you can give help wherever it is needed. That way, what you say will help those who hear you.
Eph 4:30 Don't give God's Holy Spirit any reason to be upset with you. He has put his seal on you for the day you will be set free from the world of sin.
Eph 4:31 Get rid of your bitterness, hot tempers, anger, loud quarreling, cursing, and hatred.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to each other, sympathetic, forgiving each other as God has forgiven you through Christ. :)
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#23 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:17 AM

It is not a "minor technicality". The gospel is at stake. One gospel (a false one) says that people today need to be water baptized in order to be saved. The true gospel rejects this. In fact, Paul did not shrink from declaring a false gospel an anathema (Galatians 1:8).

#24 IDF

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:28 AM

It is not a "minor technicality". The gospel is at stake. One gospel (a false one) says that people today need to be water baptized in order to be saved. The true gospel rejects this. In fact, Paul did not shrink from declaring a false gospel an anathema (Galatians 1:8).


Hey Trinitarian, could you explain to me your thoughts on why Peter ordered these same gentiles to be baptised, other than because Christ required it?

Act 10:48 So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Thanks mate :)
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#25 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:33 AM

Hey Trinitarian, could you explain to me your thoughts on why Peter ordered these same gentiles to be baptised, other than because Christ required it?

Act 10:48 So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Thanks mate :)


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First off, Mark 16:9-20 is too unreliable of a text to base any doctrine on. Second, Peter commanded them to be water baptized so they obeyed Peter's command. They were saved first and then water baptized. I have no problem with that.

#26 IDF

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:36 AM

Hey Trinitarian, could you explain to me your thoughts on why Peter ordered these same gentiles to be baptised, other than because Christ required it?

Act 10:48 So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Thanks mate :)


-------------------------------------------------

First off, Mark 16:9-20 is too unreliable of a text to base any doctrine on. Second, Peter commanded them to be water baptized so they obeyed Peter's command. They were saved first and then water baptized. I have no problem with that.


Ok, So on what basis of belief and understanding do you think that Peter used to issue this command?

Regards
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#27 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:57 AM

Ok, So on what basis of belief and understanding do you think that Peter used to issue this command?

Regards

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OK. Hi.

Since God had already accepted (saved) the Gentiles the Jews ought to accept them as fellow (and equal) members of the New Testament church. What God did invisibly (Holy Spirit baptism) Peter stated that the Jews ought to do visibly (water baptism). The Jews were pretty astounded that the Gentiles could also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45). I think many translations use the word "amazed". Their baptism was to further convince the Jews that God had accepted/saved the3 Gentiles. It was quite a revolutionary event. For a Jew to even consider a Gentile on "equal" terms was a very big deal.

#28 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:36 PM

I have 5 Greek lexicons that state if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.



Could you please list them here for our reference. If you want to discuss the gentiles being "saved" before water baptism, I need to know how you come to such a conclusion that receiving the gift of the holy spirit equals salvation.

Edited by Chris, 07 September 2008 - 01:39 PM.


#29 IDF

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:09 PM

Ok, So on what basis of belief and understanding do you think that Peter used to issue this command?

Regards

-----------------------------------------------------------------
OK. Hi.

Since God had already accepted (saved) the Gentiles the Jews ought to accept them as fellow (and equal) members of the New Testament church. What God did invisibly (Holy Spirit baptism) Peter stated that the Jews ought to do visibly (water baptism). The Jews were pretty astounded that the Gentiles could also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45). I think many translations use the word "amazed". Their baptism was to further convince the Jews that God had accepted/saved the3 Gentiles. It was quite a revolutionary event. For a Jew to even consider a Gentile on "equal" terms was a very big deal.


Act 10:43 In addition, all the prophets testify that people who believe in the one named Jesus receive forgiveness for their sins through him."
Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came to everyone who heard his message.
Act 10:45 All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish.
Act 10:46 They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. Then Peter said,
Act 10:47 "No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did."

Other way round actually, the Holy Spirit was to convince the Jews that the Gentiles could be baptized. :)

Don't worry, I've missed read quotes before too :yep:
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#30 Lectron

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:18 PM

1. What is your point about Hebrews 6? If they lost their salvation then they did have salvation to begin with. The Gentiles had salvation before water baptism.

No more than the grantee of a will does not possess it's benefits until the will takes effect

2.You nor anyone else has cited any lexicon sowing that one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost.

By whose authority do we need to cite a lexicon?

3. It is not the gifts (plural) of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 but the gift (singular) of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit being the Holy Spirit Himself.

The operation of the Holy Spirit here is just as much upon Peter as upon the Cornelius' household it operates just as Jesus predicted it would as an advocate, as one who would lovingly direct and confirm the right path.
Point is salvation is still dependant on retaining that path. It is just as important for Peter to accept this guidance as the Cornelius' household, and just as important that Peter supports the next important step (water baptism) as theirs to be baptised. All these things are important for the continous process of salvation.

4. Prove that what happened to the Gentiles is an "exception". That is cite one clear cut case Luke gives to us where any Gentile was ever told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. You asserted it as an exception thus you must prove.


You have already been provided with the example of the eunuch recorded by Luke in Acts ch 8 - no record of him receiving the Holy Spirit yet it was active enough to tranfer Phillip miraculously to miles-away Azotus

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....





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