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Saved before water baptism


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#31 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 07:13 PM

OK. Last post in this thread. Round and round we go and so far not one Greek lexicon was ever cited that shows one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost. 5 do (see OP) while zero don't.
Not only that Acts 11:17 and Acts 15:8 coupled with 1 John 4:13 also demonstrates that these Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized.

If any disagree and desire to pursue this further I open to a one on one debate with even more information that these Gentiled were saved before their water baptism. This would be better and more fair than trying to respond to 2, 3 or more people. If anyone is interested please contact me.

Thank you

Trinitarian

#32 Chris

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 07:33 PM

OK. Last post in this thread. Round and round we go and so far not one Greek lexicon was ever cited that shows one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost. 5 do (see OP) while zero don't.
Not only that Acts 11:17 and Acts 15:8 coupled with 1 John 4:13 also demonstrates that these Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized.

If any disagree and desire to pursue this further I open to a one on one debate with even more information that these Gentiled were saved before their water baptism. This would be better and more fair than trying to respond to 2, 3 or more people. If anyone is interested please contact me.

Thank you

Trinitarian


Where would you like to have this debate? We can set one up right here on the forum.

#33 Jeremy

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:12 PM

I have 5 Greek lexicons that state if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved.

Wow.

I think what you need to do here is twofold:

1. Define what you mean by "saved". Saved from what?

2. Do a study on everything the NT says about baptism. That should answer your question.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#34 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:41 PM

Hello,
This is only my second or third day here so I am not sure where they have one on one debates. I would very much like to have one concerning whether or not all must be water baptized in order to be saved. Details can be arranged.

Thank you

- Trinitarian

#35 Jeremy

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:47 PM

Did you have anyone in particular in mind?

(Welcome to the Forum, by the way.)
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#36 Trinitarian

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:16 PM

Thanks for the welcome here.

I would like someone who is VERY knowledgeable about their position.

Thanks

#37 composer

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:43 PM

Thanks for the welcome here.

I would like someone who is VERY knowledgeable about their position.

Thanks

Obviously some one ' Very Knowledgeable ' would be thinking as you do IF you were correct. The fact they do not, according to that criteria, means it is in fact you that is currently not very knowledgeable.

I also haven't seen you comment why the need for a Judgmeant Seat for all IF some are already ' saved ' and thus your hypothesis degrades that Judgement Seat for ALL, to a mere rubber stamp for some?

For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. (Rom. 14:11 - 12) KJV

Thank you

#38 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:30 AM

I wrote someone very knowledgeable about THEIR POSITION.

#39 composer

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 03:03 AM

I wrote someone very knowledgeable about THEIR POSITION.

Then your discussion should be with them!

I see also you skipped ansering my other question, you are good at that which isn't reasonable as you expect others to answer all your enquiries and questions etc.

Thank you

#40 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 09:56 PM

My discussionshould be with them?

Ummm OK. That is what I am asking for. So far no one has yet stepped up.

If you have a question either take the debate challenge or start another thread. Don't try fragmenting the topic for it is simply a ploy to confuse the issue at hand.

#41 Jeremy

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:11 PM

I wrote someone very knowledgeable about THEIR POSITION.

I think you can see in the other thread that Evangelion is very knowledgeable about his position, but you don't seem to taking much notice of what he's saying.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#42 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:15 PM

I have responded to him...and he won't debate one on one either - nor will you.

#43 Chris

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:23 PM

I have responded to him...and he won't debate one on one either - nor will you.


He's in discussions with you on two different threads right now.

#44 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:43 PM

Yes I know but I would prefer a debate one on one.

#45 Chris

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 11:07 PM

Yes I know but I would prefer a debate one on one.



If you don't actively engage people in discussions they aren't likely to agree to a one-on-one debate. There are several unanswered queries for you from others. If you prove yourself to be willing to openly discuss these things, people will be more willing to dedicate the time to a one-on-one debate.

#46 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 11:17 PM

Those questions are smoke screens to avoid the subject of the threads. So far no has yet supplied any evidence from any Greek lexicon which says that one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and be lost. Not one.
No one has refuted what I have written concerning Acts 11:17 and Acts 15:8 coupled with 1 John 4:13.

That was my first thread in this section.

In my second thread no one has supplied any clear cut evidence where Luke records a Gentile being commanded to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 applies only to the Jews of that period.


In my third thread (I know I just posted it) I demonstrated how when Paul uses "baptism" (baptized) in various passages that it refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit and how all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

It is rather difficult trying to go around refuting everyone who posts. One on one would be much better for I can focus entirely on what the other person's points are and to answer ALL their questions.

#47 Chris

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 11:26 PM

Those questions are smoke screens to avoid the subject of the threads. So far no has yet supplied any evidence from any Greek lexicon which says that one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and be lost. Not one.
No one has refuted what I have written concerning Acts 11:17 and Acts 15:8 coupled with 1 John 4:13.


If you haven't noticed, we don't really care what your five lexicons say. We are trying to engage you out of the Bible itself... if you don't want to do that you should probably look to other threads to push your theological points.

Forum Guideline 4.1 clearly states that "Failure to properly respond to people's posts in a debate will be moderated by editing or deletion of posts, and may extend to a warning." So, it is imperative you respond to the people here who are asking some very relevant questions in response to your posts.


In my third thread (I know I just posted it) I demonstrated how when Paul uses "baptism" (baptized) in various passages that it refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit and how all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

It is rather difficult trying to go around refuting everyone who posts. One on one would be much better for I can focus entirely on what the other person's points are and to answer ALL their questions.


Yet, as you said yourself, you tried to open another thread. You are contradicting yourself.

#48 Trinitarian

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 11:37 PM

You don't really care what the Greek lexicons say? OK let's make up our own definitions for words.

You used the word "noticed" Define it. Don't use a dictionary or thesaurus or any other source for a reference nor do I want your opinion. Kind of hard huh? No rather impossible.

Humpty Dumpty said in Alice in Wonderland "When I use a word it means just what a choose it to mean".

Welcome to fairy tale theology Chris.


---------------

Look to other threads to push my theological beliefs?

Yeah figures. Christadelphianism is not from God and when it is refuted with the truth it tells those who speak the truth to leave.

Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil (John 3:19).

Later days....

#49 Chris

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 11:45 PM

You don't really care what the Greek lexicons say? OK let's make up our own definitions for words.

You used the word "noticed" Define it. Don't use a dictionary or thesaurus or any other source for a reference nor do I want your opinion. Kind of hard huh? No rather impossible.

Humpty Dumpty said in Alice in Wonderland "When I use a word it means just what a choose it to mean".

Welcome to fairy tale theology Chris.


I have no use for arguments based on what "five lexicons" say about a theological matter. Plus, lexicons are more akin to dictionaries yet you are telling us they are saying quote "that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are saved." I find that hard to believe, but I have no way of knowing since you haven't given me the names of these five lexicons like I requested previously.

Look to other threads to push my theological beliefs?

Yeah figures. Christadelphianism is not from God and when it is refuted with the truth it tells those who speak the truth to leave.

Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil (John 3:19).

Later days....


You haven't refuted anything that I can see. You have to actually contribute to a conversation to even begin to refute a matter.

#50 composer

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 12:07 AM

My discussionshould be with them?

Ummm OK. That is what I am asking for. So far no one has yet stepped up.

If you have a question either take the debate challenge or start another thread. Don't try fragmenting the topic for it is simply a ploy to confuse the issue at hand.

I did exactly that and started another Thread and last time I looked you declined to answer!

I'll go and check again.

Thank you

UPDATE: Still unanswered?

http://www.thechrist...showtopic=12766

Thank you

Edited by composer, 09 September 2008 - 12:28 AM.


#51 Jeremy

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 05:44 AM

I have responded to him...and he won't debate one on one either - nor will you.

Until you oblige me with a response to this post, that seems a bit rich. Are you going to reply, please?

Yes I know but I would prefer a debate one on one.

Then use the PM function. I can't see that most of the people here on BTDF are going to be interested in such a "debate" if the twisting of Scripture we're seen so far is anything to go by.

People are not going to be interested in communicating with you if you don't do the same for them - they'll only interpret it as double standards.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.




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