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Proving the lie of the cross


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#1 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:17 PM

Matthew 27
19While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."


Now if I was Pilate ,I would never kill a man that my wife saw in a dream.He understood that this man is a man of God.How can he kill him or let anyone kill him.Endangering his wife and family and him self from the wrath of God.No man would give up his family for no one ,Even if it was the Emperor himself.What are the Jews to force him kill an innocent man of God?They were slaves under the Romans.So what is the right thing to do to avoid any uproar or rebelion?He released Jesus (pbuh) ,and crucified Barabbas the theif. Jesus(pbuh) hid himself,And by doing that Pilate made the Jews think that the one on the cross was jesus(pbuh)sence they were watching from a far distance ,And no one from those who realy knew Jesus was present except his mother Mary, which latter on went looking for him ,and found him discaised as a gardner. Mary went looking for him because she saw the crossifixion and saw that the one on the cross was not her son but Barabbas that looked alot like Jesus(pbuh).That's why Pilate asked the Jews which one of the two should he crucify .So that latter when he relases Jesus(pbuh) they will think he released Barabbas,Because they looked alike.

Barabbas, a condemned murderer, robber, and insurgent. Guilty as charged. The Romans had gotten their man, and he deserved his punishment.

It's all in the Bible. Even though they tried alot to corrupt the word of God .Some of the truth is still there.All you have to do is use your commonsense.Ask your self ,Did the Governer Pilate have any wisdom?How can he Crucify a man just because the Jews asked him to do so,When he has recived a warning from God through his wife not to do any unjustice to Jesus(pbuh)Stop here and think deep.

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

A man of wisdom a man of his rank would never do that .He is what ?trying to trick God? He was not helpless to do that.He could save Jesus(pbuh)And he did.


And that's exactly what God said in the Quran :That it apeared to them that they Crucified Jesus.See this word in Arabic we use it when we say for example I saw Mohamed yasterday but he looks alot like Ali that I mistook him for Ali.It's the word you use when you mistaken someone for someone else.And who from amongst us havn't experienced that?

Edited by laijorad, 18 August 2008 - 02:28 AM.

Humans` are judged by their smallest parts, their TONGUES & HEARTS

#2 nsr

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:24 PM

What are you implying happened, exactly?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#3 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:41 PM

What are you implying happened, exactly?


Did not get you at first.

What realy happened is that Jesus was not crucified Barbbas was.

See , Bar bbas means the son of the father in Hebrew ,and his name was Jesus too.As writen in the old Greek manuscripts (Iesous ton Barabbas). And Jesus name is (Iesous ton legomenon Christon) Jesus the so called Christ.That's why Pilate had to say their full names.

Edited by laijorad, 12 August 2008 - 06:01 PM.

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#4 IDF

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:58 PM

What are you implying happened, exactly?


Did not get you at first.

What realy happened is that Jesus was not crucified Barbbas was.


Were you there? you must be awfully old? could I meet you? I've never seen someone that old :(
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

#5 nsr

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:59 PM

While we're making stuff up without any actual proof of it, I'm going to assert that Mohammed was a war-mongering tyrant who slept with small girls.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#6 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 05:23 PM

While we're making stuff up without any actual proof of it, I'm going to assert that Mohammed was a war-mongering tyrant who slept with small girls.


you want evidnce?

Prove to me that there was a real passover .There is no evidence independent of Mark that it was ever the custom at feasts for the Romans to release a prisoner requested by the Jews.Or any body else.A prisoner that rebelled against the Romans and killed their soldiers can never be granted a passover.And kill an innocent man in his place.

Yes I was not there,But commnsense was there ,and here and every where.

And how you know she was not ready for marrige?can you tell me ,when is a girl ready to mate?

Edited by laijorad, 12 August 2008 - 05:31 PM.

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#7 nsr

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 05:26 PM

You're the one making the assertions - the onus is on you to provide the proof.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#8 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:16 PM

You're the one making the assertions - the onus is on you to provide the proof.


You don't need more proves the facts are clear.How can Pilate Give back barabbas to the Jews when he has commited the grand crime aginst the Roman Empire.And how can the Jews ask Pilate to exchange him for Jesus(pbuh) when they have brought Jesus(pbuh) for the same crime ,And by Pilate Jesus was proved innocent.Let alone the dream his wife saw.The Jews can't apeal to the Emperor tell him what?Pilate did not let Brabbas your enemy go ,and he let Jesus that claims he is a prophet go.Was he stupid to believe such nonesense?Or was his Governer stupid to let Barabbas?

It's like George Bush captures Osama ben ladein (God forbids)And when his about to hang him the Arabs come to him and bring him a man that never did any terrorist act aginst the US ,and was known as a rightous and good man.And ask him to exchange him for Ben ladein. Will he?

I'm not saying that ben ladein is bad or even barabbas.Both are fighters for a cause they believe is right.

Edited by laijorad, 12 August 2008 - 06:25 PM.

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#9 Richie

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:25 PM

Well you're wrong because the Bible, the Word of God, says otherwise. End of story. Thanks. Move along.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#10 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:28 PM

Well you're wrong because the Bible, the Word of God, says otherwise. End of story. Thanks. Move along.


The Bible is the word of God?!!!!!!!

You are all slaves to an anonymous Book written by anonymous writers.God has nothing to do with it.

Edited by laijorad, 12 August 2008 - 06:36 PM.

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#11 Richie

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:33 PM

Well you're wrong because the Bible, the Word of God, says otherwise. End of story. Thanks. Move along.


The Bible is the word of God?!!!!!!!

Yes.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#12 laijorad

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:39 PM

Well you're wrong because the Bible, the Word of God, says otherwise. End of story. Thanks. Move along.


The Bible is the word of God?!!!!!!!

Yes.


Prove it? Where does God say the Bible is my word,Or where in the Bible ,Does the Bible say it's the Bible.Or where does God speak in the Bible?
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#13 Richie

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 06:55 PM

Absolutely everywhere! There are many "thus says the Lord" passages and 2 Timothy 3:15-17 says that the whole thing is inspired by God, i.e. God breathed. 2 Peter 1:19 confirms that men wrote the word of God down as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#14 nsr

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 07:12 PM

You're the one making the assertions - the onus is on you to provide the proof.


You don't need more proves the facts are clear.How can Pilate Give back barabbas to the Jews when he has commited the grand crime aginst the Roman Empire.And how can the Jews ask Pilate to exchange him for Jesus(pbuh) when they have brought Jesus(pbuh) for the same crime ,And by Pilate Jesus was proved innocent.Let alone the dream his wife saw.The Jews can't apeal to the Emperor tell him what?Pilate did not let Brabbas your enemy go ,and he let Jesus that claims he is a prophet go.Was he stupid to believe such nonesense?Or was his Governer stupid to let Barabbas?

It's like George Bush captures Osama ben ladein (God forbids)And when his about to hang him the Arabs come to him and bring him a man that never did any terrorist act aginst the US ,and was known as a rightous and good man.And ask him to exchange him for Ben ladein. Will he?

I'm not saying that ben ladein is bad or even barabbas.Both are fighters for a cause they believe is right.

More assumptions and assertions. You weren't there, so stop pretending to know what happened. Do you normally just make up stuff based on what you want to believe?

Have you actually read the Bible?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#15 composer

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:01 AM

While we're making stuff up without any actual proof of it, I'm going to assert that Mohammed was a war-mongering tyrant who slept with small girls.

We know that your hypothesis concerning Mohammed is actually true and well documented.

1. The Hadith 004.034 explains how Muhammed had authority to beat the women / girls into submission.


2. MAHOMET'S FLIGHT FROM MECCA TO MEDINA

The first and most arduous conquests of Mahomet were those of his wife, his servant, his pupil, and his friend; since he presented himself as a prophet to those who were most conversant with his infirmities as a man. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 673)

3. THE CHARACTER AND PRIVATE LIFE OF MAHOMET

. . . The use of fraud and perfidy, of cruelty and injustice, were often subservient to the propagation of the faith; and Mahomet commanded or approved the assassination of the Jews and idolaters who had escaped from the field of battle. By the repetition of such acts the character of Mahomet must have been gradually stained; and the influence of such pernicious habits would be poorly compensated by the practice of the personal and social virtues which are necessary to maintain the reputation of a prophet among his secretaries and friends. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 690)


4. Mahomet breaks his own Laws -

Perfumes and women were the two sensual enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not forbid; and Mahomet affirmed that the fervour of his devotion was increased by these innocent pleasures. . . . . (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 691)

5. And Muslims want outsiders to embrace the morals of their beloved leader instead of the impeccable standards of God and God's representitive Jesus?

Edited by composer, 13 August 2008 - 03:23 AM.


#16 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 09:25 AM

You mean he's picking the bits of the Bible he wants to believe and the bits he isn't?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#17 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 02:32 PM

You mean he's picking the bits of the Bible he wants to believe and the bits he isn't?


Ok let's go further into the Bible and see if realy Jesus(pbuh) was crucified.

"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"

God delivers him from all troubles .And his bones will never be broken.It's a lie that they say that after the crucifiion his bones were not broken.If he was crucified .His bones would have broke ,sense they must when they release the body from the top of the cross ,he would have fall on the rocks.And what commonsense is that? he dies but his bones are safe.God saved his bones and not his soul.He died but great his bones are ok.



Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (Jesus was lefted up by God almighty like God promised ,and like God said in the Quran ' : But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah [b]raised him up
Unto Himself; (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159) )

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.(what honor there is in ben whipped and put on the cross and humiliated by his enemies?) Ofcurse that never happened.


16 With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."(Yes Jesus(pbuh) lives up to this day ,and will live untill the day he returns and dies)
Humans` are judged by their smallest parts, their TONGUES & HEARTS

#18 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 02:38 PM

You mean he's picking the bits of the Bible he wants to believe and the bits he isn't?


Ok let's go further into the Bible and see if realy Jesus(pbuh) was crucified.

"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"

God delivers him from all troubles .And his bones will never be broken. It's a lie ,that they say that after the crucifiion his bones were not broken.If he was crucified .His bones would have broke ,sense they must when they release the body from the top of the cross ,he would have fall on the rocks.And what commonsense is that? he dies but his bones are safe.God saved his bones and not his soul.He died ,but great his bones are ok.



Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (Jesus was lefted up by God almighty like God promised ,and like God said in the Quran ' : But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah [b]raised him up
Unto Himself; (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159) )

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.(what honor there is in ben whipped and put on the cross and humiliated by his enemies?) Ofcurse that never happened.


16 With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."(Yes Jesus(pbuh) lives up to this day ,and will live untill the day he returns and dies)
Humans` are judged by their smallest parts, their TONGUES & HEARTS

#19 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 02:39 PM

So you're ignoring the bit that actually says he was crucified in favour of your own personal interpretation of other passages?

You also seem to be missing the rather crucial point that Jesus didn't remain dead afterwards - he was raised back to life 3 days later.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#20 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:06 PM

So you're ignoring the bit that actually says he was crucified in favour of your own personal interpretation of other passages?

You also seem to be missing the rather crucial point that Jesus didn't remain dead afterwards - he was raised back to life 3 days later.


Are you sure they were 3 days and not just 1 day?
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#21 Richie

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:10 PM

If we tried telling you what the Koran said would you be impressed?

If you have a sincere desire to know what the Bible says I suggest you ask someone some questions about why Jesus died from the perspective of a Bible reader and not try to fathom up ideas that simply show your ignorance.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#22 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:45 PM

If we tried telling you what the Koran said would you be impressed?

If you have a sincere desire to know what the Bible says I suggest you ask someone some questions about why Jesus died from the perspective of a Bible reader and not try to fathom up ideas that simply show your ignorance.


Ok if we say Jesus(pbuh) was crucified at friday morrning and died at dusk the same day he was taken to the tomb,But sunday morrning Mary Magdalene,Goes to the tomb and finds it empty.So let's count friday night and saturday a whole day.We only have one day and a half.

When the Bible say's that Jesus said :"AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN; AND THERE SHALL NO SIGN (no miracle) BE GIVEN TO IT, BUT THE SIGN (miracle) OF THE PROPHET JONAS: FOR AS JONAS WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE WHALE'S BELLY; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." Matthew 12:39-40).

But this prophecy was never fulfilled .
1. Because Jonas(pbuh) was alive in the whale's belly,And the Bible(NT) say's that Jesus was dead in the tomb.
2. Jonas stayed for three days and three nights,When the (NT) Gives only 1 day and 2 nights.

How do you want me to believe ?You want me to just believe in things that do not make sense at all. I'm amazed how can you believe in it.The way to God is clear.And makes sense.
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#23 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:00 PM

Absolutely everywhere! There are many "thus says the Lord" passages and 2 Timothy 3:15-17 says that the whole thing is inspired by God, i.e. God breathed. 2 Peter 1:19 confirms that men wrote the word of God down as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Was he sure it was the Holy spirit and not the unholy spirit?

The Holy spirit comes only to prophets.The holy spirit is none but the Archangel Gabriel(pbuh).Not to some writers.And very poor ones too.Each one wrote what he thought.
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#24 Jeremy

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:00 PM

Laijorad, all you're doing (all you ever do, in fact, I think it's fair to say) is that you're telling us what the Koran says about the Bible. You are not undertaking any objective analysis, or even reading the Bible for yourself. You are wasting your time approaching it in this way.

To answer your latest post, who says Jesus was crucified on a Friday? The Bible doesn't say anything about Friday. Why do you think the writers of the Bible would include such an obvious mistake if it was as you say?
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#25 Jeremy

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:06 PM

Each one wrote what he thought.

You've just proved my point. This is the exact opposite of what the Bible says. Go and read 2 Peter 1 v 20-21.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#26 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 07:00 PM

Laijorad, all you're doing (all you ever do, in fact, I think it's fair to say) is that you're telling us what the Koran says about the Bible. You are not undertaking any objective analysis, or even reading the Bible for yourself. You are wasting your time approaching it in this way.

To answer your latest post, who says Jesus was crucified on a Friday? The Bible doesn't say anything about Friday. Why do you think the writers of the Bible would include such an obvious mistake if it was as you say?


Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath.

Because the Jews did not want the bodies (of Jesus and the thieves) left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. John 19.31.

Tell me when were the body taken down? because,the day of preparation is friday and the bodies must not be up on the cross the next day which is saturday a holy day for the Jews so the burial did take place in friday and Mary went to the tomb sunday.That's only 1 day and a half.
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#27 laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 07:28 PM

Each one wrote what he thought.

You've just proved my point. This is the exact opposite of what the Bible says. Go and read 2 Peter 1 v 20-21.


2 Peter 1:19-21
19 So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.* He does not mean those scripture the scripture you hold today.He's talking about the old prophets that were moved by the Holy spirit Gabreil(pbuh) and the women like Mary(pbuh)and Moses mother.

The scriptures today are all men interpreatation.
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#28 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 08:24 PM

The Qu'ran is an unreliable mish-mash of Biblical quotes, mis-quotes, and a 7th century mentally ill Arab's imagination. Why do you put your faith in it?

And please don't give the circular argument of "We know the Qu'ran is true because Mohammed wrote it, we know Mohammed is a true prophet because the Qu'ran says so....etc etc".
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#29 Dawn

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 08:50 PM

Hi Laijorad: Muslims believe that Christ didn't die, but went straight up to heaven? Am I right?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

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laijorad

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 09:06 PM

Hi Laijorad: Muslims believe that Christ didn't die, but went straight up to heaven? Am I right?


Yes we do.
Humans` are judged by their smallest parts, their TONGUES & HEARTS




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