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Universalism versus Annihilationism


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#151 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:29 AM

The answers that you have been given by nsr and Richie sound very much like predestination to me. If God knows in advance who will accept him or not and lets those who he knows will reject him die without ever hearing the "saving" gospel, then they are obviously predestined.

Since we are all so predestined then why preach "the gospel" to anyone?

P.S. The verse that says, "God is love", is either wrong or God is benevolent - BECAUSE, there is no such thing as malevolent love, that's an oxymoron.

No it's not predestination (using the non-Biblical meaning of the word). God has all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding any being could ever have - he knows how his creation ticks. He knows what we'll do before we do it, not because he predestines us to do it but because he knows what we're like. We have a limited level of foreknowledge. E.g. with your own kids - you know how they will react given certain situations. Take that ability we have and extrapolate it a lot and you can begin to understand how God can know the end from the beginning.

Since we aren't predestined we should preach the gospel.

And love doesn't mean warm and fuzzy - a lot of it has to do with discipline, which is not easy. It's the God of Christendom you should be complaining about, who puts people through billions of years of hell.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#152 Corky

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:16 AM

The answers that you have been given by nsr and Richie sound very much like predestination to me. If God knows in advance who will accept him or not and lets those who he knows will reject him die without ever hearing the "saving" gospel, then they are obviously predestined.

Since we are all so predestined then why preach "the gospel" to anyone?

P.S. The verse that says, "God is love", is either wrong or God is benevolent - BECAUSE, there is no such thing as malevolent love, that's an oxymoron.

No it's not predestination (using the non-Biblical meaning of the word). God has all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding any being could ever have - he knows how his creation ticks. He knows what we'll do before we do it, not because he predestines us to do it but because he knows what we're like. We have a limited level of foreknowledge. E.g. with your own kids - you know how they will react given certain situations. Take that ability we have and extrapolate it a lot and you can begin to understand how God can know the end from the beginning.

Since we aren't predestined we should preach the gospel.

And love doesn't mean warm and fuzzy - a lot of it has to do with discipline, which is not easy. It's the God of Christendom you should be complaining about, who puts people through billions of years of hell.

But, it is predestination to know the end from the beginning and acting on that knowledge or, in the case of the extreme suffering of part of humanity, not acting on it and allowing it to continue. With foreknowledge of all this suffering and evil, who would be the one responsible?

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

#153 composer

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:21 AM

IMHO "free will" is an illusion.

I believe that neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.

We do share one thing in common with robots, and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."

I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.

You obviously also believe in reincarnation and multiple judgments?

What do you make of the following then please? -

For this reason the wicked cannot withstand judgment, nor can sinners join the assembly of the godly. 1:6 Certainly the Lord guards the way of the godly, but the way of the wicked ends in destruction.29 (Psalm 1:5 - 6) KJV

29tn Heb “but the way of the wicked perishes.” The “way of the wicked” may refer to their course of life (Ps 146:9; Prov 4:19; Jer 12:1) or their sinful behavior (Prov 12:26; 15:9). The Hebrew imperfect verbal form probably describes here what typically happens, though one could take the form as indicating what will happen (“will perish”).

1. It says that the wicked can NOT withstand judgment (Psalm 1: 5), but you say they do and that they also get repeated chances and repeated lives until they eventually learn their lesson and are forgiven.

2. Also NB: ' judgment ' i.e. singular, not plural (multiple judgments)

Thanks

#154 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:23 AM

But, it is predestination to know the end from the beginning and acting on that knowledge or, in the case of the extreme suffering of part of humanity, not acting on it and allowing it to continue. With foreknowledge of all this suffering and evil, who would be the one responsible?

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.

Do you want freewill? Let's imagine a world with no freewill and God just moved us around like pawns. Would that satisfy you? You'd be a puppet on the end of a string. Then no human being could boast. Not that they can anyway, but we like to complain about God whether he gives us our freedom or not. Don't blame God for human suffering.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#155 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:31 AM

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

There are some Christadelphians in Kenya who have taken fifty orphans into the home and transformed their lives. That's God working right there. Unfortunately for the vast majority of people who bemoan the state of the world they aren't willing to do anything to alleviate it except maybe write a cheque once in a while. Big deal.

Why blame God for the inactivity of human beings who have all the resources they could ever ask for in which to help end the suffering of this world? We messed it up and we only have ourselves to blame.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#156 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:33 AM

To truly ' love ' some one is to want the best for that person and a loving God often has to chastise and punish in order to bring out the best in others


It's just a pity that God chooses not to intervene for almost a million kids who die each year of malaria. Perhaps that's intended to bring out the best in the parents of those children?

No. It's a pity that human beings who have the power to intervene don't bother. How often have you used your disposable income to travel to Africa in order to help people?
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#157 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:36 AM

It's just a pity that God chooses not to intervene for almost a million kids who die each year of malaria. Perhaps that's intended to bring out the best in the parents of those children?


Of course not. It's simply a case of God not intervening.


He does have the power to intervene, doesn't he? He could stop children dying of terrible diseases if he wanted to? If the Bible is to believed, God often intervenes when he wants to. Admittedly it's usually to do something pretty nasty like spread a plague or drown everybody, but I think it would be really nice if he could do something positive & helpful. Something that would benefit everybody, in the real world. It wouldn't be too hard - human beings have eradicated smallpox all by themsleves, I'm sure 'God' could do just as well if he made the effort.

Obviously you've never made an attempt to read the Bible.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#158 Corky

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:40 AM

But, it is predestination to know the end from the beginning and acting on that knowledge or, in the case of the extreme suffering of part of humanity, not acting on it and allowing it to continue. With foreknowledge of all this suffering and evil, who would be the one responsible?

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.

Do you want freewill? Let's imagine a world with no freewill and God just moved us around like pawns. Would that satisfy you? You'd be a puppet on the end of a string. Then no human being could boast. Not that they can anyway, but we like to complain about God whether he gives us our freedom or not. Don't blame God for human suffering.

Let's just imagine "free-will". We cannot make a free choice if we have no choice and we cannot make an uncaused choice - so, where is this free-will that you keep talking about? It simply doesn't exist, it's a psychological illusion.

#159 composer

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:44 AM

But, it is predestination to know the end from the beginning and acting on that knowledge or, in the case of the extreme suffering of part of humanity, not acting on it and allowing it to continue. With foreknowledge of all this suffering and evil, who would be the one responsible?

Knowing the beginning and end doesn't mean it deprives any individual from using their Free-Will at any stage to Repent of their old ungodly ways. The choice is theirs all the way. e.g. take your next point -

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

As your children grow you know that one day they will be tall enough or smart enough to reach up and touce the active Hot plate on the stove.

You spend the earliest years guiding them and forewarning them of the dangers and consequences.

It is common for children to ignore that warning and burn themselves because they wanted to see if what was told them was really true or whatever reason they have for trying for themselves.

They suffered the pain and consequences despite all your loving efforts to prevent them needlessly suffering.

What do you say to them and what would you say if they contemplated a repeat performance?

No doubt, " I told you so and fore-warned you, you caused yourself pain and needless suffering by ignoring my warnings and IF you contemplate repeating it you know the consequences "

I doubt you would throw out the stove and only eat cold foods and you may as well throw out almost all the kitchen and household appliances (and everything in the world) that might cause potential harm. That not being practical, I suggest instead you would say to them that it is up to their continued Free-Will, whether they learn their lesson etc. and repented of their disobedience to your sound advice.

Cheers!

Edited by composer, 12 June 2009 - 01:49 AM.


#160 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:44 AM

Let's just imagine "free-will". We cannot make a free choice if we have no choice and we cannot make an uncaused choice - so, where is this free-will that you keep talking about? It simply doesn't exist, it's a psychological illusion.

What are you talking about? We have free choice every single moment of our lives. I am aware that Newtonian physics would support your assertion that we cannot make an uncaused choice whereas quantum physics says differently. So modern science is helping confirm the Bible doctrine of freewill.

The way I look at it is like this: let's imagine you're going down path B when God wants you to go down path A. In order to get you to go down path A he puts an obstacle in your way on path B. When you come to the obstacle you have a choice: whether to ignore the obstacle and jump over it or let the obstacle teach you something so you turn round and go down path A. God is working in your life but you're still making a choice whether to respond.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#161 Guest_rodgertutt_*

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:07 AM

Let's just imagine "free-will". We cannot make a free choice if we have no choice and we cannot make an uncaused choice - so, where is this free-will that you keep talking about? It simply doesn't exist, it's a psychological illusion.

What are you talking about? We have free choice every single moment of our lives. I am aware that Newtonian physics would support your assertion that we cannot make an uncaused choice whereas quantum physics says differently. So modern science is helping confirm the Bible doctrine of freewill.

The way I look at it is like this: let's imagine you're going down path B when God wants you to go down path A. In order to get you to go down path A he puts an obstacle in your way on path B. When you come to the obstacle you have a choice: whether to ignore the obstacle and jump over it or let the obstacle teach you something so you turn round and go down path A. God is working in your life but you're still making a choice whether to respond.


We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, quantum physics nothwithstanding.
It is absolutely impossible to choose want we do not prefer.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it at leat slightly more than influences that were almost just as strong.
Therefore, there is no such a thing as "free will."

#162 Corky

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:08 AM

But, it is predestination to know the end from the beginning and acting on that knowledge or, in the case of the extreme suffering of part of humanity, not acting on it and allowing it to continue. With foreknowledge of all this suffering and evil, who would be the one responsible?

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).

Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.

Do you want freewill? Let's imagine a world with no freewill and God just moved us around like pawns.

Isn't that what the Bible says that God does? Appointing borders and rulers etc.?

Would that satisfy you? You'd be a puppet on the end of a string. Then no human being could boast.

Isn't that what Paul pointed out about God's Grace? Otherwise a man could boast that God does have respect of persons and chose him above his peers because he was deemed superior or whatever.

Not that they can anyway, but we like to complain about God whether he gives us our freedom or not. Don't blame God for human suffering.

I'm not blaming a non-existent for human suffering, I'm just saying that if God actually did exist that he could have prevented it. Most of human suffering has been caused by disease, which man did not invent, and natural things like drought, flood, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanos, etc. which man had no control over. Men's governments have also contributed to the suffering of mankind - which, according to the Bible, is appointed by God.



#163 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:31 AM

Psalm 14:1
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#164 Jeppo

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:17 AM

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).


Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.


Richie, the Bible tells us that God has interfered with freewill on many occasions. He's even suspended the laws of physics, chemistry & biology to change the course of events - you don't get more meddlesome than that! Even now Christians all over the world believe he actively works in their lives by allowing certain events to unfold. I've lost count of the amount of times that Christians talk about God 'using' certain individuals to bring about the fulfilment of prophecy. Not much freewill there, then. You've even said yourself that God puts 'obstacles' in peoples' way to test them.

Following the logic of your beliefs we are all living in some sort of God-matrix where every thought, decision, and reaction is determined by God's will. Nothing on earth can happen without God allowing it to happen or causing it to happen. There's the rub; if we are beholden to some sort of omniscient, omnipotent power then we can't ever have freewill. It will always be an illusion.

#165 Sarai

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:34 AM

You seem to be arguing around and around in circles.

God works around your decisions. If you decide to lift your arm up and wiggle your fingers right now, God won't stop you, because you have free will. He didn't decide that you were going to do that and didn't make you do it, although he knew that you would. If you doing that was going to cause something that He planned not to happen, He'll find another way to do it, or He might try and make something EXTERNAL happen to make you reconsider moving it. But He wouldn't actually force your arm to be still.

He's changed the laws of physics, chemistry and biology before, yes. But he hasn't changed people. He's never changed someone's mind for them or manipulated their body to do what he wants. He alters the circumstances around them, not they themselves.

#166 Jeppo

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:04 AM

You seem to be arguing around and around in circles.
God works around your decisions. If you decide to lift your arm up and wiggle your fingers right now, God won't stop you, because you have free will.

Sarai, I can see how you would think that. It does seem silly to suggest that 'God' is manipulating us like puppets and perhaps it does seem to you that I'm arguing in circles, but I can't do anything that God doesn't actually allow me to do. That would limit God's omnipotence. I can't do anything that God doesn't know in advance - that would limit his omniscience.

You may be trivialising my argument by talking about 'wiggling' fingers, but have a think about these two questions:

1. Is there any human action that can be taken without God's consent?
2. If God ceased to exist would you still be able to read this post?

Edited by Jeppo, 12 June 2009 - 05:04 AM.


#167 Guest_rodgertutt_*

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:11 AM

You seem to be arguing around and around in circles.
God works around your decisions. If you decide to lift your arm up and wiggle your fingers right now, God won't stop you, because you have free will.

Sarai, I can see how you would think that. It does seem silly to suggest that 'God' is manipulating us like puppets and perhaps it does seem to you that I'm arguing in circles, but I can't do anything that God doesn't actually allow me to do. That would limit God's omnipotence. I can't do anything that God doesn't know in advance - that would limit his omniscience.

You may be trivialising my argument by talking about 'wiggling' fingers, but have a think about these two questions:

1. Is there any human action that can be taken without God's consent?
2. If God ceased to exist would you still be able to read this post?


We do have one thing in common with puppets and that is causality. Everything we do and believe is the product of the strongest sets of influence that have been brought to bear upon our mind. Therefore there is no such a thing as "free will."

#168 Sarai

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:20 AM

1. Yes*.
2. No.

* I'm not saying he couldn't stop it if he wanted to. I'm saying he chooses not to, because he chooses to give humans free will.

#169 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:27 AM

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).


Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.


Richie, the Bible tells us that God has interfered with freewill on many occasions. He's even suspended the laws of physics, chemistry & biology to change the course of events - you don't get more meddlesome than that! Even now Christians all over the world believe he actively works in their lives by allowing certain events to unfold. I've lost count of the amount of times that Christians talk about God 'using' certain individuals to bring about the fulfilment of prophecy. Not much freewill there, then. You've even said yourself that God puts 'obstacles' in peoples' way to test them.

Following the logic of your beliefs we are all living in some sort of God-matrix where every thought, decision, and reaction is determined by God's will. Nothing on earth can happen without God allowing it to happen or causing it to happen. There's the rub; if we are beholden to some sort of omniscient, omnipotent power then we can't ever have freewill. It will always be an illusion.

I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If you were to tell a child "don't eat the chocolate bar or you will go to bed early" are you manipulating the child like a puppet? Of course not: you haven't changed the will of the child, you have merely warned them. They still have free choice.

There's an argument I can show which tells us human beings don't have free will until God comes into the picture...
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#170 Evangelion

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:54 AM

Because it suited His purpose at the time.

I'm still not completely sold on the idea that God only offers salvation to certain people that He's specifically picked out beforehand but it does offer a solution to a question that otherwise can't be explained except by saying basically "God works in mysterious ways" and leaving it at that. Which I'm happy to do, but some (ie BobtheFish) are not.


It doesn't offer any solution. It just turns God into a capricious being who choses His favourites arbitrarily and condemns the rest.


I think that is a solution, of sorts. At least it's more concrete than "we don't know why He doesn't offer salvation to everyone when He's clearly capable of it".


How can it be a solution when it robs us of free will and reduces salvation to a celestial lottery?

It seems to me that "it suited His purpose at the time" to ensure sure certain people heard the gospel, and "He choses his favourites arbitrarily" are pretty much the same thing, although the use of pathos makes one sound more abhorent.


Not at all, for intervention is not equivalent to salvation. There's a world of difference between God intervening in human affairs and God arbitrarily deciding in advance who's going to be saved and condemned.
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
Imago
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#171 Jeppo

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:24 PM

I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.


Still as charming as ever :)

If you were to tell a child "don't eat the chocolate bar or you will go to bed early" are you manipulating the child like a puppet? Of course not: you haven't changed the will of the child, you have merely warned them. They still have free choice.


Yes of course, but this is a false analogy. Parents are not omniscient or omnipotent. They don't sustain the existence of their children; children can survive the death of their parents.

By contrast, your belief system can't postulate the existence of anything without a creator to sustain & guide it.

#172 Mark Taunton

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:31 PM

If you were to tell a child "don't eat the chocolate bar or you will go to bed early" are you manipulating the child like a puppet? Of course not: you haven't changed the will of the child, you have merely warned them. They still have free choice.


Yes of course, but this is a false analogy. Parents are not omniscient or omnipotent. They don't sustain the existence of their children; children can survive the death of their parents.

It is not a false analogy: those differences have no bearing on the core issue the analogy pertains to, which is free will.

#173 Jeppo

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:10 PM

1. Is there any human action that can be taken without God's consent?
2. If God ceased to exist would you still be able to read this post?

1. Yes*.
2. No.

* I'm not saying he couldn't stop it if he wanted to. I'm saying he chooses not to, because he chooses to give humans free will.


Sarai, put simply: if your very existence relies on God to sustain it & God knows the outcome of every choice you make, you can't possibly have free-will. What you will have is the illusion of being 'free' yet all your choices have been determined by the creator.

#174 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:10 PM

No. If you make a free choice but someone knew what you'd pick, you were still free to make that choice. Just because someone knows what you do doesn't change the fact that you of your own volition chose a certain route.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#175 Richie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:35 PM

If you were to tell a child "don't eat the chocolate bar or you will go to bed early" are you manipulating the child like a puppet? Of course not: you haven't changed the will of the child, you have merely warned them. They still have free choice.


Yes of course, but this is a false analogy. Parents are not omniscient or omnipotent. They don't sustain the existence of their children; children can survive the death of their parents.

It is not a false analogy: those differences have no bearing on the core issue the analogy pertains to, which is free will.

Thanks Mark. There are enough examples in Scriptures where people are directed by God but still mess up. This shows us that God still allows men and women to function with free will. In fact, as I intimated, a case can be made for saying that it's only when God comes into the picture that free will comes to light. Without God men are "as the beasts which perish." With God entering the picture suddenly people have a choice.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#176 Corky

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:04 PM

We all discipline our children but we do not allow them to needlessly suffer if we can help it - and God can help it (if he exists, that is).


Herein lies the problem. Either God interferes with freewill and then everyone is predestined (unlike where you think predestination comes into the equation) or God doesn't interfere with freewill.


Richie, the Bible tells us that God has interfered with freewill on many occasions. He's even suspended the laws of physics, chemistry & biology to change the course of events - you don't get more meddlesome than that! Even now Christians all over the world believe he actively works in their lives by allowing certain events to unfold. I've lost count of the amount of times that Christians talk about God 'using' certain individuals to bring about the fulfilment of prophecy. Not much freewill there, then. You've even said yourself that God puts 'obstacles' in peoples' way to test them.

Following the logic of your beliefs we are all living in some sort of God-matrix where every thought, decision, and reaction is determined by God's will. Nothing on earth can happen without God allowing it to happen or causing it to happen. There's the rub; if we are beholden to some sort of omniscient, omnipotent power then we can't ever have freewill. It will always be an illusion.

I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If you were to tell a child "don't eat the chocolate bar or you will go to bed early" are you manipulating the child like a puppet? Of course not: you haven't changed the will of the child, you have merely warned them. They still have free choice.

There's an argument I can show which tells us human beings don't have free will until God comes into the picture...

You mixed up "free-will" with "free-choice".

Once a person is given a choice THEN he can choose and not before.

"Free-will" OTOH, is the ability to make an UNCAUSED choice, a choice that is not given - which you cannot do. If you think that I don't know what I'm talking about - try it! Right now, make an uncaused choice. I dare ya, com'on - try harder.

A man living here in the state of Arkansas, for example, studies his Bible daily and belongs to the First Baptist Church (because that's the way he was raised and besides that, it the closest church to his home). Now, this man sincerely wants "the truth" - however, he can't choose to become a Christadelphian. Why? Because he's never even heard of it - his free-will to choose Christadelphia is out the window.

And doesn't Christadelphia say that Christadelphia is "the truth"? Just suppose this man decided that his church wasn't the right one and starts a search for "the truth". Right off the bat he's faced with about 34,000 sects of just Christendom alone. His chance of finding, studying and deciding that Christadelphia has it right are next to nil, and he is far more likely to end up a JW or a Mormon. That's because everyone has heard of them and they are presented as a choice.

I left the CDs a long time ago but it wasn't because of my "free-will" by an uncaused choice. No, I simply made the choice to leave because of the way that I had been treated, so it had a CAUSE. It wasn't free-will at all, it was free-choice, because I already HAD that choice and that choice was not uncaused.

Have you succeeded in making that free-will, uncaused choice yet? As soon as you do, I'll tell you what the cause was, you know, just in case you can't see it yourself.

#177 composer

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:53 AM

To Corky,

The Truth is right there in the Bible Text.

Before the Christ Adelphian Sect was formed (as we know it now called ) there were many others that discovered that same Truth purely from the Biblical Text.

No one has to or is compelled to join any man made Group to discover that Truth and any one who has discovered that Biblical Truth could not in all good conscience, join any Group that contradicts the Biblical Truth and the J.w's and Mormons certainly do. (And so do all Groups or Individuals who contradict Biblical Truth)

You made / implemented the God given Free Will gift of Freedom to choose / decide to leave an organisation because you say they upset you and treated you badly. (Just as you can again implement your Free-Will gift to decide to return at any time.)

You have thrown the baby out with the bath-water by rejecting the Truth you once held dear because you feel maligned by men.

I also left the CA's by my Free-Will decision, but it did not mean that I had to also throw out the fundamental Biblical Truths we still share.

Cheers!

Edited by composer, 13 June 2009 - 01:01 AM.


#178 Corky

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 06:23 PM

To Corky,

The Truth is right there in the Bible Text.

Before the Christ Adelphian Sect was formed (as we know it now called ) there were many others that discovered that same Truth purely from the Biblical Text.

No one has to or is compelled to join any man made Group to discover that Truth and any one who has discovered that Biblical Truth could not in all good conscience, join any Group that contradicts the Biblical Truth and the J.w's and Mormons certainly do. (And so do all Groups or Individuals who contradict Biblical Truth)

You made / implemented the God given Free Will gift of Freedom to choose / decide to leave an organisation because you say they upset you and treated you badly. (Just as you can again implement your Free-Will gift to decide to return at any time.)

You have thrown the baby out with the bath-water by rejecting the Truth you once held dear because you feel maligned by men.

I also left the CA's by my Free-Will decision, but it did not mean that I had to also throw out the fundamental Biblical Truths we still share.

Cheers!

Thanks, but that still doesn't explain how a person can make an UNCAUSED choice - which is what the free-will doctrine is all about, i.e., making a choice without any outside influence (such as the bible or some church's literature).

#179 Richie

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 06:37 PM

On the contrary, Corky - the Bible teaches us that the mind of Christ is all about deciding to do things against what might happen normally if we submitted to causal circumstances around us.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#180 willieH

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 01:55 AM

Then why does the Bible talk about a judgement? :smited:


What does "judgment" have to do with being SAVED? Judgment is just a determination that indicates alignment with truth or disalignment with it.

Isaiah 26:7 -- with my soul have I desired thee in the night, yea, with my spirit within me will I see thee early... for WHEN thy judgments are IN THE EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

JUDGMENT is a PROFITABLE thing, correcting that which is errant. :smited:

...willieH :smited:




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