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Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 will achieve immortality - although they believe this will be in heaven, not on earth as the Bible teaches. The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)
They see this distinction in the descriptions in Revelation 7 of two groups of people - 144,000 and a great crowd. This is expounded in some detail in a JW publication "REVELATION - Its great climax at hand" and has been the subject of a number of meetings I have had with JWs. I am putting the notes here and hope that it might be of some use - you may find it difficult to follow if you are not conversant with JW teaching and terminology, but here it is anyway for what its worth.
Discussions With Jehovah's Witnesses
Who are the great crowd?
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#2
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Posted 10 August 2003 - 08:34 AM
The Great Crowd
It is stated of the great crowd is that they are “dressed in white robes” (Rev 7:9).
What is the meaning of the white robes? According to “Revelation – Its Grand Climax At Hand!” page 122,
Does this really give the full picture? The symbol of white robes is used elsewhere in Revelation.
Rev 3:3-4 The conquerors in Sardis. “‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar'dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy. 5 He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels.”
These words are applied to the holy ones in Sardis – they are given white outer garments because they are worthy. They are given because they are overcomers. Revelation book says
and
Rev 4:4 Twenty four elders. “And round about the throne [there are] twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones [I saw] seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments……..”
Revelation book comments
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar. “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God ……. And a white robe was given to each of them;
Revelation book comments:
So when we read at Rev 7:9 of a group clothed in white robes, what conclusion can we reach?
The above scriptures describe three other groups who have white robes, and it is taught in those cases that the white robes signify “their resurrection to be immortal spirit creatures”, “raised to be part of the group of 24 elders”, “none other than the annointed ones of the Christian congregation, etc. Those who will be saved are described by different symbols and as different groups. For example in chapter 3 as conquerors, in chapter 4 as 24 elders, in chapter 6 as souls under the altar – but they all signify aspects of the same group of people.
It seems from the above that the great crowd is another description of the same group, and not a second group of Christians with a different fate.
It is stated of the great crowd is that they are “dressed in white robes” (Rev 7:9).
What is the meaning of the white robes? According to “Revelation – Its Grand Climax At Hand!” page 122,
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“Their robes are washed white in the blood of the Lamb, symbolizing that they have a righteous standing before Jehovah by virtue of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice. (Revelation 7:14)”
Does this really give the full picture? The symbol of white robes is used elsewhere in Revelation.
Rev 3:3-4 The conquerors in Sardis. “‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar'dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy. 5 He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels.”
These words are applied to the holy ones in Sardis – they are given white outer garments because they are worthy. They are given because they are overcomers. Revelation book says
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“Yes, those “outer garments” refer to a person’s righteous identity as a Christian. (Compare Revelation 16:15; 19:8.) It must be heartwarming for Jesus to see that, despite the apathy of the great majority, “a few names,” a few anointed Christians in Sardis, still manage to keep this identity.” (Revelation – Its climax, page 57)
and
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“After the establishment of Jesus’ Messianic Kingdom in 1914, they are resurrected to spirit life and as conquerors are arrayed with white outer garments in symbol of their flawless, untainted righteousness.” (page 75).
Rev 4:4 Twenty four elders. “And round about the throne [there are] twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones [I saw] seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments……..”
Revelation book comments
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“They are none other than anointed ones of the Christian congregation, resurrected and occupying the heavenly position Jehovah promised them” (page 77)
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar. “And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God ……. And a white robe was given to each of them;
Revelation book comments:
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“Their receiving “a white robe” has to do with their resurrection to be immortal spirit creatures. No longer do they lie as slaughtered souls underneath the altar, but they are raised to be part of the group of 24 elders that worship before the heavenly throne of God.” (page 102)
“And they are “dressed in white outer garments,” signifying that they have been adjudged righteous, worthy of an honored place before Jehovah in that heavenly court.“ (page 103).
“And they are “dressed in white outer garments,” signifying that they have been adjudged righteous, worthy of an honored place before Jehovah in that heavenly court.“ (page 103).
So when we read at Rev 7:9 of a group clothed in white robes, what conclusion can we reach?
The above scriptures describe three other groups who have white robes, and it is taught in those cases that the white robes signify “their resurrection to be immortal spirit creatures”, “raised to be part of the group of 24 elders”, “none other than the annointed ones of the Christian congregation, etc. Those who will be saved are described by different symbols and as different groups. For example in chapter 3 as conquerors, in chapter 4 as 24 elders, in chapter 6 as souls under the altar – but they all signify aspects of the same group of people.
It seems from the above that the great crowd is another description of the same group, and not a second group of Christians with a different fate.
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Posted 10 August 2003 - 08:41 AM
This section deals with the JW contention that the phrase "serving him day and night in his temple" when applied to the great crowd (Rev 7:15) does NOT mean that they are priests (ie kings and priests to God).
The Great Crowd Renders Sacred Service Where? Watchower 1980 8/15 14-20
This article in the Watchtower magazine deals with the identity of the Great Crowd and whether they are in heaven or on earth. It states that the word used for temple (na-os in Greek) whose primary meaning is “sanctuary”, can some times be used for the temple as a whole. In the Kingdom Interlinear Version, in the word for word transliteration, the word naos is translated “divine habitation” whereas the word heiron is translated “temple”. This distinction is not maintained in the final translation, and the KIT is inconsistent in its translation of naos in the book of Revelation. The article incorrectly implies that the money changers were driven out of the naos.
However, the original Greek word heiron is used here and in all the parallel accounts. (John 2:14; Matt 21:12;Mark 11:15;Luke 19:45 KIT).
This is confirmed in an article in the Watchtower of Aug 15th 1960 relating to the same event.
So the later Watchtower article (1980) contradicts the earlier (1960) correct one.
However, even assuming that the argument is correct and that the Greek word naos can mean the whole temple in the passages quoted from the gospels, it does not follow that because naos CAN mean the whole temple, that it DOES mean that in the Revelation 7 passage. The 1960 Watchtower accurately points out that the primary meaning of naos is temple sanctuary, and any other use is non-standard. The analysis in the 1980 Watchtower does not appear to take into account the 16 occurrences of the word naos in the Book of Revelation. The apostle John is careful to distinguish the naos from the outer court:
It would seem unlikely that the great crowd would be rendering sacred service in the area of the temple which John was told to ignore because it was given over to the gentiles.
WT 1996, July 1, page 21, para states:
However, this is contradicted by WT 1998, Feb 1, page 21
The conclusion must be that the courtyard is outside of the naos (Rev 11:2) but the great crowd are said to be IN the naos (Rev 7:15).
What does the seal of the living God mean?
The Watchtower article states the following:
However, the passage appears to clearly show that the 144,000 are on earth during this period, not in heaven. The four angels hold back the winds that will blow ON EARTH (Rev 7:2), until the 144,000 are sealed. Therefore they must be on earth or this has no meaning. This is followed up in Rev 9:4 where it states:
Rev 9:4 “And they (ie the tormenting locusts) were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
It appears then that the seal of the living God has to do with protection of the 144,000 while on earth and does not relate to “final arrangements, as regards heaven and earth”.
The Great Crowd Renders Sacred Service Where? Watchower 1980 8/15 14-20
This article in the Watchtower magazine deals with the identity of the Great Crowd and whether they are in heaven or on earth. It states that the word used for temple (na-os in Greek) whose primary meaning is “sanctuary”, can some times be used for the temple as a whole. In the Kingdom Interlinear Version, in the word for word transliteration, the word naos is translated “divine habitation” whereas the word heiron is translated “temple”. This distinction is not maintained in the final translation, and the KIT is inconsistent in its translation of naos in the book of Revelation. The article incorrectly implies that the money changers were driven out of the naos.
Quote
“For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod’s temple, the original Greek word used is na·os'.” (para 4)
However, the original Greek word heiron is used here and in all the parallel accounts. (John 2:14; Matt 21:12;Mark 11:15;Luke 19:45 KIT).
This is confirmed in an article in the Watchtower of Aug 15th 1960 relating to the same event.
Quote
“It may well be asked, What kind of building could this be that had room for all this traffic? The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hierón and naós. Hierón referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naós applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron. But when Jesus likened his body to a temple he used the word naós, meaning the temple “sanctuary,” as noted in the footnote of the New World Translation.” WT Aug 15, 1960
So the later Watchtower article (1980) contradicts the earlier (1960) correct one.
However, even assuming that the argument is correct and that the Greek word naos can mean the whole temple in the passages quoted from the gospels, it does not follow that because naos CAN mean the whole temple, that it DOES mean that in the Revelation 7 passage. The 1960 Watchtower accurately points out that the primary meaning of naos is temple sanctuary, and any other use is non-standard. The analysis in the 1980 Watchtower does not appear to take into account the 16 occurrences of the word naos in the Book of Revelation. The apostle John is careful to distinguish the naos from the outer court:
Quote
Rev 11: 2 NWT “But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] (Greek: naos), cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.””
It would seem unlikely that the great crowd would be rendering sacred service in the area of the temple which John was told to ignore because it was given over to the gentiles.
WT 1996, July 1, page 21, para states:
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As foretold, the great crowd “are worshiping [God] day and night in his temple.” (Revelation 7:15, footnote) Since they are not spiritual, priestly Israelites, John likely saw them standing in the temple in the outer courtyard of the Gentiles. (1 Peter 2:5)
However, this is contradicted by WT 1998, Feb 1, page 21
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The great crowd worships with anointed Christians in the earthly courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. (Revelation 7:14, 15; 11:2) There is no reason to conclude that they are in a separate Court of the Gentiles. When Jesus was on earth, there was a Court of the Gentiles in the temple. However, in the divinely inspired plans of Solomon’s and Ezekiel’s temples, there was no provision for a Court of the Gentiles…..
The conclusion must be that the courtyard is outside of the naos (Rev 11:2) but the great crowd are said to be IN the naos (Rev 7:15).
What does the seal of the living God mean?
The Watchtower article states the following:
Quote
“One noteworthy thing that differentiates the 144,000 “bought” ones from the white-robed “great crowd” is what is called the “seal of the living God.” Revelation, chapter 7, which deals with both the 144,000 spiritual Israelites and the “great crowd,” shows that only the 144,000 are marked “in their foreheads” with that “seal” as being “the slaves of our God.” This indicates that there is a difference also in their appointed stations in God’s final arrangements, as regards heaven and earth.” (WT 1980, 8/15, page 18, para 14).
However, the passage appears to clearly show that the 144,000 are on earth during this period, not in heaven. The four angels hold back the winds that will blow ON EARTH (Rev 7:2), until the 144,000 are sealed. Therefore they must be on earth or this has no meaning. This is followed up in Rev 9:4 where it states:
Rev 9:4 “And they (ie the tormenting locusts) were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
It appears then that the seal of the living God has to do with protection of the 144,000 while on earth and does not relate to “final arrangements, as regards heaven and earth”.
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Posted 10 August 2003 - 08:48 AM
And finally.......
If these questions are studied based on the Bible alone, the answers will be found to contradict JW teaching on this subject:
Where is the camp of the saints during the thousand years? Rev 20:2; Rev 20:9
Where is the beloved city during the thousand years? Rev 20:9
(JWs believe the "redeemed", ie the 144,000 are in heaven)
How can the number 144,000 be literal when Paul says that those under the new covenant are more numerous than those under the old? Gal 4:27 (Note: As far as I can see the Watchtower articles imply that "the children of the free" include angels and relate to God’s Woman – however, Paul is talking about two covenants, and angels were not under any covenant that I know of).
How can the number 144,000 be literal when it is made up of twelve groups of 12,000 and both the 12 and the 12,000 are taken as symbolic?
Are the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7 in heaven or on the earth (Rev 7:1-3; Rev 9:4).
How are the great crowd protected from the tormenting locusts in Rev 9:3-4, if only those sealed (ie the 144,000) are protected? Can it be because they are different representations of the same group of people?
How can Jesus be in heaven during the thousand years if he said to the thief on the cross – “you will be with me in paradise”? (Paradise being on earth). Luke 23:43.
How can Abraham not be in the Kingdom of God, when it is agreed that his seed will be. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed - not a different promise to Abraham. (Rom 4:13; Gal 3:16).
If these questions are studied based on the Bible alone, the answers will be found to contradict JW teaching on this subject:
Where is the camp of the saints during the thousand years? Rev 20:2; Rev 20:9
Where is the beloved city during the thousand years? Rev 20:9
(JWs believe the "redeemed", ie the 144,000 are in heaven)
How can the number 144,000 be literal when Paul says that those under the new covenant are more numerous than those under the old? Gal 4:27 (Note: As far as I can see the Watchtower articles imply that "the children of the free" include angels and relate to God’s Woman – however, Paul is talking about two covenants, and angels were not under any covenant that I know of).
How can the number 144,000 be literal when it is made up of twelve groups of 12,000 and both the 12 and the 12,000 are taken as symbolic?
Are the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7 in heaven or on the earth (Rev 7:1-3; Rev 9:4).
How are the great crowd protected from the tormenting locusts in Rev 9:3-4, if only those sealed (ie the 144,000) are protected? Can it be because they are different representations of the same group of people?
How can Jesus be in heaven during the thousand years if he said to the thief on the cross – “you will be with me in paradise”? (Paradise being on earth). Luke 23:43.
How can Abraham not be in the Kingdom of God, when it is agreed that his seed will be. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed - not a different promise to Abraham. (Rom 4:13; Gal 3:16).
#5
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Posted 10 August 2003 - 06:27 PM
Way to go Elpis and many thanks. You've brought up many points that I overlooked here.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the apostles were the first to belong to the Heavenly Class. A major proof-text is found in John.
The Witness believe that Jesus was literally telling the Apostles that he was going to prepare a place for them in heaven to rule as the Heavenly Class instead of understanding that 'in my father's house' in many instances in scripture refer to God's house on earth.
Also in John the two flocks are supposedly mentioned in chapter 10.
The other sheep are believed to be the 'great crowd' that are NOT of Jesus' fold. What's confusing for them is that Jesus said that he will bring them in order to make 'one flock' instead of two. We all know that Christ was refering to the Gentiles in this passage, however the JW will immediate reverance Revelation 7 as proof that this is speaking of the Great Crowd.
There are a few more that I will bring to the thread. More to come..
Dianne
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the apostles were the first to belong to the Heavenly Class. A major proof-text is found in John.
Quote
John 14:
2In My Father's house are many mansions;[1] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[2] 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
2In My Father's house are many mansions;[1] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[2] 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
The Witness believe that Jesus was literally telling the Apostles that he was going to prepare a place for them in heaven to rule as the Heavenly Class instead of understanding that 'in my father's house' in many instances in scripture refer to God's house on earth.
Also in John the two flocks are supposedly mentioned in chapter 10.
Quote
John 10
16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The other sheep are believed to be the 'great crowd' that are NOT of Jesus' fold. What's confusing for them is that Jesus said that he will bring them in order to make 'one flock' instead of two. We all know that Christ was refering to the Gentiles in this passage, however the JW will immediate reverance Revelation 7 as proof that this is speaking of the Great Crowd.
There are a few more that I will bring to the thread. More to come..
Dianne
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#6
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Posted 10 August 2003 - 07:06 PM
Ive read that book, the great climax at hand.
Their eschatology is almost up to date. CD's are holding onto Revelation 13 (Beast out of the Earth) when it pointed to the church (Church of Rome) prior to 1844, not the nations (UK/USA) and Old World (post 1948).
The Jehovah Witnesses would do well to remember that the exalted are debased and vice versa.
The 144000 is not literal, its symbollic of light/perfection, the perfected, spiritual completeness.
These are those who are not overcome by religion [women] and commerce [consumerism]. So perilous is the situation today.
The religions make mastery nothing more than an ideal. Millions are living for the carnal mind, which is death - imbued in this manner, they are living for that which will be no more, and are identifying with death, and so death will become them.
Therefore, God will purge the masses by fire (tribulation - WW3).
Their eschatology is almost up to date. CD's are holding onto Revelation 13 (Beast out of the Earth) when it pointed to the church (Church of Rome) prior to 1844, not the nations (UK/USA) and Old World (post 1948).
The Jehovah Witnesses would do well to remember that the exalted are debased and vice versa.
The 144000 is not literal, its symbollic of light/perfection, the perfected, spiritual completeness.
These are those who are not overcome by religion [women] and commerce [consumerism]. So perilous is the situation today.
The religions make mastery nothing more than an ideal. Millions are living for the carnal mind, which is death - imbued in this manner, they are living for that which will be no more, and are identifying with death, and so death will become them.
Therefore, God will purge the masses by fire (tribulation - WW3).
This post has been edited by Mercia: 10 August 2003 - 07:10 PM
#7
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Posted 19 April 2004 - 03:48 AM
elpis, on Aug 10 2003, 08:25 AM, said:
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 will achieve immortality - although they believe this will be in heaven, not on earth as the Bible teaches. The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)
How is dwelling on earth forever, everlasting life, with a sinless nature different than immortality?
Isn't everlasting life as everlasting as immortality? And isn't that what immortality is? Everlasting life? Whether on earth or in heaven?
Acomtha
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 05:15 PM
elpis states this:
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
#10
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 08:44 PM
acomtha, on Apr 21 2004, 03:15 AM, said:
elpis states this:
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
The JW doctrines have changed so much over the years, it's possible that Elpis has come across a different version to that which you know.
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#11
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 08:51 PM
acomtha, on Apr 20 2004, 01:15 PM, said:
elpis states this:
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
Yes the Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthy hope which is to live on the earth free of sin and evil forever-a literal everlasting life of immortality. I have never heard of any JW that didn't believe that true believers would not have the hope of eternal life.
Someone is misunderstanding.
( note: My parents were JW, we grew up as JW, my father's brother and wife and their children were JW and those still living still are, My grandparents on both sides were JW and a number of my aunts and uncles also on both sides of my family. And they all look/ed forward to immortality after the resurrection.)
Acomtha
Elpis is right. I have discussions with a JW every Saturday and I was shocked to find that 'immortality' is only granted to the Heavenly Class. Those on earth will have everlasting life but NOT immortality.
All of the Epistles are addressed to those of the Heavenly Class so when you show them 1 Corinthians 15, this immortality that's spoken of is not for those who will be on the Earthly Kingdom.
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#12
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:05 PM
So you are saying that they believe that those that have an everlasting life on an earthly Kingdom of God will still be, live and die...after their resurrection to this kingdom, as they had before.
If a literal everlasting life is not life forever, is not eternal life, is not immortality, then how is it everlasting....everlasting does mean, when applied to living forever, immortal.
I still think they are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
If a literal everlasting life is not life forever, is not eternal life, is not immortality, then how is it everlasting....everlasting does mean, when applied to living forever, immortal.
I still think they are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
This post has been edited by acomtha: 20 April 2004 - 09:18 PM
#13
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:06 PM
Also, I do remember inquiring what the difference between granting someone 'everlasting life' and granting someone 'immortality' and I still don't understand the answer that was given to me.
My entire family are JW's and I've offered to take part in these discussions to learn more about this belief that I grew up in. It must say that I find it really confusing more than ever now.
My entire family are JW's and I've offered to take part in these discussions to learn more about this belief that I grew up in. It must say that I find it really confusing more than ever now.
"If it's not in the Bible, then why do you believe it?"
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
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#14
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:07 PM
acomtha, on Apr 20 2004, 05:05 PM, said:
So you are saying that they believe that those that have an everlasting life on an earthly Kingdom of God will still be, live and die...after their resurrection to this kingdom, as they had before.
I still think they are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
I still think they are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
No. They believe that those on earth will have everlasting life but NOT immortality. Immortality is only granted to the Heavenly Class.
This post has been edited by Dianne: 20 April 2004 - 09:08 PM
"If it's not in the Bible, then why do you believe it?"
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
#15
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:22 PM
Dianne, on Apr 20 2004, 09:06 PM, said:
Also, I do remember inquiring what the difference between granting someone 'everlasting life' and granting someone 'immortality' and I still don't understand the answer that was given to me.
My point exactly, that it is very probable that their answers on this are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
#16
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Posted 20 April 2004 - 09:26 PM
acomtha, on Apr 20 2004, 05:22 PM, said:
Dianne, on Apr 20 2004, 09:06 PM, said:
Also, I do remember inquiring what the difference between granting someone 'everlasting life' and granting someone 'immortality' and I still don't understand the answer that was given to me.
My point exactly, that it is very probable that their answers on this are being misunderstood.
Acomtha
Hmmm...do you mean that people are misunderstanding them? If that is the case I will have to disagree solely because I did understand from what I was told that there is a difference between everlasting life and immortality. According to this JW, they are not the same. That much I wasn't mistaken on. He clearly distinquished two as not being the same, however I don't understand from the answer he gave me WHAT that difference is.
This post has been edited by Dianne: 20 April 2004 - 09:27 PM
"If it's not in the Bible, then why do you believe it?"
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
#17
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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:25 AM
Quote
'So with obedient mankind, when man's last enemy, death, is brought to nothing, there will be no sin working in their bodies to bring death. To time indefinite they will not need to die.'
'Insight on the Scriptures', volume 2, pages 248-249
'Insight on the Scriptures', volume 2, pages 248-249
Quote
'However, the Hebrew expression 'ohlam' does not in itself mean "forever". It often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things' existence can be said to be 'to time indefinite' because the time of their end is not then specified.
'Insight on the Scriptures', volume 2, page 1102
'Insight on the Scriptures', volume 2, page 1102
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.
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Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.
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#18
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Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:04 AM
Hello Acomtha,
I have discussed this at length with a JW elder of many years and am sure that I have presented the case accurately. The point is the phrase in bold:
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
JWs teach a resoration of mankind (other than the 144,000) to the same state that mankind was in, before the fall. In other words, they still have the potential to sin, though there is no need for them to sin. Only the 144,000 are unable to sin as they have immortality like Christ. Everlasting life for the remainder remains forever conditional on not sinning. While they consider it is unlikely that anyone ever will sin, it is still a possibility.
It is perhaps a subtle distinction, but it is not the hope that is laid out in scripture for those who are "in Christ".
Before the 1930s JWs taught that the great crowd was also a heavenly class, though one comprising less dedicated Christians.
The fact that most JWs today believe that they will live on earth with (conditional) everlasting life, depends entirely on the unsupported "fact" that since 1935 God has not been calling men to "heavenly immortal life" (except to fill up spaces left by those who have been unworthy) - this means that hope of JWs is dependent on the belief that they belong to God's organisation, rather than believing the Bible. To this extent they are exactly the same as Roman Catholics, who believe that only they have the right and ability to interpret scripture. No JW can support the 1935 date from scripture alone - it is necessary to appeal to the history and authority of the "organisation".
I think this is a really important issue. While JWs claim to base all their beliefs on scripture, it is clear that this is not so. They use scripture primarily to "prove" that there's is God's organisation.
I have discussed this at length with a JW elder of many years and am sure that I have presented the case accurately. The point is the phrase in bold:
"The rest of Jehovah's Witnesses have an earthly hope - to dwell on earth for ever with a sinless nature similar to Adam's - everlasting life, but not immortaliy(!!)"
JWs teach a resoration of mankind (other than the 144,000) to the same state that mankind was in, before the fall. In other words, they still have the potential to sin, though there is no need for them to sin. Only the 144,000 are unable to sin as they have immortality like Christ. Everlasting life for the remainder remains forever conditional on not sinning. While they consider it is unlikely that anyone ever will sin, it is still a possibility.
It is perhaps a subtle distinction, but it is not the hope that is laid out in scripture for those who are "in Christ".
Before the 1930s JWs taught that the great crowd was also a heavenly class, though one comprising less dedicated Christians.
The fact that most JWs today believe that they will live on earth with (conditional) everlasting life, depends entirely on the unsupported "fact" that since 1935 God has not been calling men to "heavenly immortal life" (except to fill up spaces left by those who have been unworthy) - this means that hope of JWs is dependent on the belief that they belong to God's organisation, rather than believing the Bible. To this extent they are exactly the same as Roman Catholics, who believe that only they have the right and ability to interpret scripture. No JW can support the 1935 date from scripture alone - it is necessary to appeal to the history and authority of the "organisation".
I think this is a really important issue. While JWs claim to base all their beliefs on scripture, it is clear that this is not so. They use scripture primarily to "prove" that there's is God's organisation.
#19
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Posted 21 April 2004 - 06:02 PM
I hope that you do not mind but I took it over to a Jehovah's Witness board and asked them. And this is what one JW said. Either way whether immortal or everlasting life on earth, all do have the hope of living forever. That was my main point and maybe wasn't what elpis was discussing anyway. But it is not "fate" to be left on a paradise earth living forever. Either way, whether in heaven or on earth they believe they will be living forever. Here is what Adam had to say:
Hey Acomtha,
I think there is some confusion as to what NOT having "immortality" means. Not having immortality does NOT mean one will die. From a "length of life" perspective, "immortality" and "everlasting life" are exactly the same.
For a discussion on how we believe the two concepts are different, I suggest you read the April 1st 1984 WT p. 30-31. It is a "Questions From Readers" article entitled: "What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?" I can post that here in this thread if you would like.
Sincerely,
Adam
On another note, I'm not sure why Diane or Elpsis finds this so shocking. I don't think "immortality" was ever offered to the Jews either. The angels evidently do not have immortality either. Why people are shocked that we don't believe we are part of group X (the group that goes to heaven and recieves immortality because they are in a specific covenant with God) is curious to me. Its seems to betray a lack of wide Biblical knowledge and understanding and quite myopic. For instance, during the time of the Jews, think of the thousands of Jehovah's worshippers that simply weren't a part of the Abrahamic covenant. Would that shock her too?
Sincerely,
Adam
Hi Adam,
Yes, post it please, I would like to read it. Thanks for the reply.
To be more sure that I am understandiang you correctly, those that are of the great crowd that will be resurrected and given life in a Paradise earth will live forever with out death?
Acomtha
Hey Acomtha,
You said:
To be more sure that I am understandiang you correctly, those that are of the great crowd that will be resurrected and given life in a Paradise earth will live forever with out death?
Adam:
Correct. On a side note, can I be a bit technical with you? I know exactly what you mean, but just for the sake of technicality, the "great crowd" are the ones who make it through Armagedon and never taste death at all. They are not of the resurrected group. You meant to say those of the resurrected "righteous" (an allusion to Jesus and Paul's words) or something like that. It's just a technicality, but sometimes for our own appreciation it is good to keep things clear in our minds. Back to the point. Yes, your sense of what we believe is right on.
But immortality is not necessarily just about eternal life. It seems to be more about life source. Here is the article:
· What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?
Endless life will be enjoyed both by anointed ones receiving spirit life in heaven and by humans whom God declares righteous for life on the Paradise earth. So if you think about the outcome, immortality in heaven and everlasting life on earth result in basically the same thing—living forever. There are, though, some comments about immortality that can be made.
The Greek word translated “immortality” (athanasia) is formed from the negative a and from thanatos, meaning “death.” Immortality thus has the basic sense of ‘without death,’ or deathlessness. Understandably, Jehovah is the absolute source of all life and is immortal. (Psalm 36:9; 90:1, 2) This is confirmed by the fact that his glorified Son, who now “is the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being,” is described as “the King of those [men] who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality.” (Hebrews 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16) No creature can take Jesus’ life as an immortal, which makes him different from humans or spirits that can die. Further, we read: “Now that [Christ] has been raised up from the dead, [he] dies no more; death is master over him no more.”—Romans 6:9.
Though immortality is, in a sense, everlasting life, immortality apparently implies more than that its possessor will live forever. It seems to indicate a particular quality of life, and it is linked with incorruption. The Bible says about spirit-anointed Christians who receive the heavenly reward: “This which is corruptible [in its human body] must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’”—1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.
Still, the Bible does not provide much detail about the quality of life termed immortality. We do know that mortal humans—even perfect humans having the prospect of endless life on earth—must eat and drink to maintain life, or they die and their bodies experience corruption. (Genesis 2:9, 15, 16) No doubt immortality involves a quality of life that does not need to be sustained like that. Thus it could be said that all who become immortal are not subject to death or that ‘death is master over them no more.’ That would harmonize, too, with their receiving incorruptibility, indicating that their spirit body or organism is inherently beyond decay, ruin or corruption. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:1; Revelation 20:6.) In these ways a difference might be seen between immortality and everlasting human life.
Jehovah God is the perfect Judge who rewards anointed ones with immortality. When he in his boundless wisdom and insight determines such ones to be completely tested and unquestionably qualified for immortality, we can trust that they will forever be faithful. All whom Jehovah judges worthy of endless life, whether as immortal spirits or as perfect humans, will be able to worship him forever. Thus, in the final analysis, both everlasting human life and immortality in heaven result in endless life.—John 17:3.
Adam.
Hey Acomtha,
I think there is some confusion as to what NOT having "immortality" means. Not having immortality does NOT mean one will die. From a "length of life" perspective, "immortality" and "everlasting life" are exactly the same.
For a discussion on how we believe the two concepts are different, I suggest you read the April 1st 1984 WT p. 30-31. It is a "Questions From Readers" article entitled: "What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?" I can post that here in this thread if you would like.
Sincerely,
Adam
On another note, I'm not sure why Diane or Elpsis finds this so shocking. I don't think "immortality" was ever offered to the Jews either. The angels evidently do not have immortality either. Why people are shocked that we don't believe we are part of group X (the group that goes to heaven and recieves immortality because they are in a specific covenant with God) is curious to me. Its seems to betray a lack of wide Biblical knowledge and understanding and quite myopic. For instance, during the time of the Jews, think of the thousands of Jehovah's worshippers that simply weren't a part of the Abrahamic covenant. Would that shock her too?
Sincerely,
Adam
Hi Adam,
Yes, post it please, I would like to read it. Thanks for the reply.
To be more sure that I am understandiang you correctly, those that are of the great crowd that will be resurrected and given life in a Paradise earth will live forever with out death?
Acomtha
Hey Acomtha,
You said:
To be more sure that I am understandiang you correctly, those that are of the great crowd that will be resurrected and given life in a Paradise earth will live forever with out death?
Adam:
Correct. On a side note, can I be a bit technical with you? I know exactly what you mean, but just for the sake of technicality, the "great crowd" are the ones who make it through Armagedon and never taste death at all. They are not of the resurrected group. You meant to say those of the resurrected "righteous" (an allusion to Jesus and Paul's words) or something like that. It's just a technicality, but sometimes for our own appreciation it is good to keep things clear in our minds. Back to the point. Yes, your sense of what we believe is right on.
But immortality is not necessarily just about eternal life. It seems to be more about life source. Here is the article:
· What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?
Endless life will be enjoyed both by anointed ones receiving spirit life in heaven and by humans whom God declares righteous for life on the Paradise earth. So if you think about the outcome, immortality in heaven and everlasting life on earth result in basically the same thing—living forever. There are, though, some comments about immortality that can be made.
The Greek word translated “immortality” (athanasia) is formed from the negative a and from thanatos, meaning “death.” Immortality thus has the basic sense of ‘without death,’ or deathlessness. Understandably, Jehovah is the absolute source of all life and is immortal. (Psalm 36:9; 90:1, 2) This is confirmed by the fact that his glorified Son, who now “is the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being,” is described as “the King of those [men] who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality.” (Hebrews 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16) No creature can take Jesus’ life as an immortal, which makes him different from humans or spirits that can die. Further, we read: “Now that [Christ] has been raised up from the dead, [he] dies no more; death is master over him no more.”—Romans 6:9.
Though immortality is, in a sense, everlasting life, immortality apparently implies more than that its possessor will live forever. It seems to indicate a particular quality of life, and it is linked with incorruption. The Bible says about spirit-anointed Christians who receive the heavenly reward: “This which is corruptible [in its human body] must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’”—1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.
Still, the Bible does not provide much detail about the quality of life termed immortality. We do know that mortal humans—even perfect humans having the prospect of endless life on earth—must eat and drink to maintain life, or they die and their bodies experience corruption. (Genesis 2:9, 15, 16) No doubt immortality involves a quality of life that does not need to be sustained like that. Thus it could be said that all who become immortal are not subject to death or that ‘death is master over them no more.’ That would harmonize, too, with their receiving incorruptibility, indicating that their spirit body or organism is inherently beyond decay, ruin or corruption. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:1; Revelation 20:6.) In these ways a difference might be seen between immortality and everlasting human life.
Jehovah God is the perfect Judge who rewards anointed ones with immortality. When he in his boundless wisdom and insight determines such ones to be completely tested and unquestionably qualified for immortality, we can trust that they will forever be faithful. All whom Jehovah judges worthy of endless life, whether as immortal spirits or as perfect humans, will be able to worship him forever. Thus, in the final analysis, both everlasting human life and immortality in heaven result in endless life.—John 17:3.
Adam.
#20
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Posted 21 April 2004 - 07:42 PM
acomtha, on Apr 21 2004, 02:02 PM, said:
I hope that you do not mind but I took it over to a Jehovah's Witness board and asked them. And this is what one JW said. Either way whether immortal or everlasting life on earth, all do have the hope of living forever.
I never disputed this understanding. I understand that both mean 'without death', however I dispute the difference between the two as JW presents it.
Quote
That was my main point and maybe wasn't what elpis was discussing anyway. But it is not "fate" to be left on a paradise earth living forever. Either way, whether in heaven or on earth they believe they will be living forever.
Yup, i undstood this. Thanks.
"If it's not in the Bible, then why do you believe it?"
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
"I AM SPARTACUS!"
"It's the VIBE..."
#21
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Posted 05 June 2009 - 01:18 PM
elpis, on Aug 10 2003, 01:48 AM, said:
How can the number 144,000 be literal when it is made up of twelve groups of 12,000 and both the 12 and the 12,000 are taken as symbolic?
Mad: Very Good questions!
You must remember that since Revelation IS a Symbolic Vision that there are endless opinions as to what it means- and we will most likely KNOW what was meant AS the foretold events happen!
Now, on 144,000, what do YOU people believe on this?
Do you believe these are the Last Days?
Moderator's edit: quote fixed - please note - thanks!
This post has been edited by Lectron: 05 June 2009 - 05:00 PM
#22
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:39 AM
theMadJW, on Jun 5 2009, 08:18 AM, said:
elpis, on Aug 10 2003, 01:48 AM, said:
How can the number 144,000 be literal when it is made up of twelve groups of 12,000 and both the 12 and the 12,000 are taken as symbolic?
Mad: Very Good questions!
You must remember that since Revelation IS a Symbolic Vision that there are endless opinions as to what it means- and we will most likely KNOW what was meant AS the foretold events happen!
Now, on 144,000, what do YOU people believe on this?
144,000 is symbolic and not be taken literal.
Quote
Do you believe these are the Last Days?
We believe that Christ is coming soon.
#23
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 12:04 PM
Dianne, on Aug 10 2003, 07:27 PM, said:
Way to go Elpis and many thanks. You've brought up many points that I overlooked here.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the apostles were the first to belong to the Heavenly Class. A major proof-text is found in John.
The Witness believe that Jesus was literally telling the Apostles that he was going to prepare a place for them in heaven to rule as the Heavenly Class instead of understanding that 'in my father's house' in many instances in scripture refer to God's house on earth.
Also in John the two flocks are supposedly mentioned in chapter 10.
The other sheep are believed to be the 'great crowd' that are NOT of Jesus' fold. What's confusing for them is that Jesus said that he will bring them in order to make 'one flock' instead of two. We all know that Christ was refering to the Gentiles in this passage, however the JW will immediate reverance Revelation 7 as proof that this is speaking of the Great Crowd.
There are a few more that I will bring to the thread. More to come..
Dianne
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the apostles were the first to belong to the Heavenly Class. A major proof-text is found in John.
Quote
John 14:
2In My Father's house are many mansions;[1] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[2] 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
2In My Father's house are many mansions;[1] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[2] 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
The Witness believe that Jesus was literally telling the Apostles that he was going to prepare a place for them in heaven to rule as the Heavenly Class instead of understanding that 'in my father's house' in many instances in scripture refer to God's house on earth.
Also in John the two flocks are supposedly mentioned in chapter 10.
Quote
John 10
16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The other sheep are believed to be the 'great crowd' that are NOT of Jesus' fold. What's confusing for them is that Jesus said that he will bring them in order to make 'one flock' instead of two. We all know that Christ was refering to the Gentiles in this passage, however the JW will immediate reverance Revelation 7 as proof that this is speaking of the Great Crowd.
There are a few more that I will bring to the thread. More to come..
Dianne
The, "In my Faters house", In Jn 14: 2, Is in heaven, not on earth.
Note what Jesus said in v3, I go to prepare a place for you, Jesus didn't go to the earth, He went from the earth, to heaven.
Also v3, Jesus says, "I will come again and receive you to myself". Thr Greek word for, "Receive" means,
To Snatch away, To take away.
Jesus is coming back for His people, [Christians] to take them to heaven this known as the rapture.
Then after the tribulation Jesus will come back to earth with all His saints. Rev 19: 14, zechariah 14: 5.
#24
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 12:32 PM
Read Hebrews 11. The promise God made to Abraham was of land given to him and his descendants forever. Abraham never received that land, therefore God is going to raise him from the dead and establish a Kingdom on earth. Nobody is going to heaven.
The key thing you're missing in John 14:3 is that Jesus says "I will come again", i.e. come back to earth and receive his people on earth.
The Bible doesn't say anything about any rapture.
The key thing you're missing in John 14:3 is that Jesus says "I will come again", i.e. come back to earth and receive his people on earth.
The Bible doesn't say anything about any rapture.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#26
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 08:59 PM
God&me, on Jun 6 2009, 01:04 PM, said:
The, "In my Fathers house", In Jn 14: 2, Is in heaven, not on earth.
Is it? I don't know of a scriptural passage that tells us that God's house is in heaven. Every one I've ever looked at is talking about a house on earth, not in heaven. Start with Genesis 28, where Jacob calls a place Beth-el - house of God. He says it is the gateway to heaven, because he saw angels coming down and going up on a ladder whose top was in heaven. But the place he was in - on earth - was what he called the house of God.
And so it goes on throughout the Bible. There is not a single passage that says that God's house is in heaven. It is always on earth. There are plenty of examples, such as the Levites in 1 Chron 9:26-27, whose work was for the house of God, and who lodged around it. They certainly weren't in heaven! Then there is the temple Solomon built, which David his father had made preparations to build: in 1 Chron 22:2 it is called the house of God. Again, in 2 Chron 2, it is called the house of the LORD (Yahweh), and the house of God. It was built on earth; its architecture and dimensions are given, and the materials were very definitely sourced from the earth. It was not in heaven. God's house never is.
Cyrus king of Persia said that God had commanded him to build him a house (Ezra 1:2). Cyrus was not in heaven; nor were the Jews who went back from exile to Jerusalem to build it. They built the house for God in Jerusalem - on the earth.
Later, Jesus drives out the Jews who were polluting the temple with their buying and selling and changing money (John 2:13-17); he tells them that they are making his father's house a house of merchandise. They weren't in heaven, doing their trading!
And right at the end of book of Revelation, in chapter 21:3, it doesn't tell us that the tabernacle of men will eventually be with God, and they will dwell with him (in heaven). Instead we are told that the tabernacle of God will be with men, and he will dwell with them. That is, on the earth. The house of God is to be a heavenly house (because it is the house of the God of heaven), but in the Bible, it is always on the earth.
#27
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:56 PM
steveyb3, on Jun 6 2009, 08:14 PM, said:
The Rapture doctrine was formed in the 1700s I believe. Very American.
The Watchtower cult has a completely different concept of the rapture than Christains and the Bible. Charles Taze Russell predicted the rapture to occur in 1878, but now the Cult teaches that the rapture of the church is a false hope. What most Christians view as the rapture, JW’s view as having occurred in 1918 (3.5 years after 1914).
#28
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 07:41 AM
Mark Taunton, on Jun 6 2009, 09:59 PM, said:
Is it? I don't know of a scriptural passage that tells us that God's house is in heaven. Every one I've ever looked at is talking about a house on earth, not in heaven. Start with Genesis 28, where Jacob calls a place Beth-el - house of God. He says it is the gateway to heaven, because he saw angels coming down and going up on a ladder whose top was in heaven. But the place he was in - on earth - was what he called the house of God.
And so it goes on throughout the Bible. There is not a single passage that says that God's house is in heaven. It is always on earth. There are plenty of examples, such as the Levites in 1 Chron 9:26-27, whose work was for the house of God, and who lodged around it. They certainly weren't in heaven! Then there is the temple Solomon built, which David his father had made preparations to build: in 1 Chron 22:2 it is called the house of God. Again, in 2 Chron 2, it is called the house of the LORD (Yahweh), and the house of God. It was built on earth; its architecture and dimensions are given, and the materials were very definitely sourced from the earth. It was not in heaven. God's house never is.
Cyrus king of Persia said that God had commanded him to build him a house (Ezra 1:2). Cyrus was not in heaven; nor were the Jews who went back from exile to Jerusalem to build it. They built the house for God in Jerusalem - on the earth.
Later, Jesus drives out the Jews who were polluting the temple with their buying and selling and changing money (John 2:13-17); he tells them that they are making his father's house a house of merchandise. They weren't in heaven, doing their trading!
And right at the end of book of Revelation, in chapter 21:3, it doesn't tell us that the tabernacle of men will eventually be with God, and they will dwell with him (in heaven). Instead we are told that the tabernacle of God will be with men, and he will dwell with them. That is, on the earth. The house of God is to be a heavenly house (because it is the house of the God of heaven), but in the Bible, it is always on the earth.
And so it goes on throughout the Bible. There is not a single passage that says that God's house is in heaven. It is always on earth. There are plenty of examples, such as the Levites in 1 Chron 9:26-27, whose work was for the house of God, and who lodged around it. They certainly weren't in heaven! Then there is the temple Solomon built, which David his father had made preparations to build: in 1 Chron 22:2 it is called the house of God. Again, in 2 Chron 2, it is called the house of the LORD (Yahweh), and the house of God. It was built on earth; its architecture and dimensions are given, and the materials were very definitely sourced from the earth. It was not in heaven. God's house never is.
Cyrus king of Persia said that God had commanded him to build him a house (Ezra 1:2). Cyrus was not in heaven; nor were the Jews who went back from exile to Jerusalem to build it. They built the house for God in Jerusalem - on the earth.
Later, Jesus drives out the Jews who were polluting the temple with their buying and selling and changing money (John 2:13-17); he tells them that they are making his father's house a house of merchandise. They weren't in heaven, doing their trading!
And right at the end of book of Revelation, in chapter 21:3, it doesn't tell us that the tabernacle of men will eventually be with God, and they will dwell with him (in heaven). Instead we are told that the tabernacle of God will be with men, and he will dwell with them. That is, on the earth. The house of God is to be a heavenly house (because it is the house of the God of heaven), but in the Bible, it is always on the earth.
Thank you, Mark. This is a really good summary.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:05 PM
[quote name='ChickenSoup' date='Jun 6 2009, 12:39 AM' post='368948']
144,000 is symbolic and not be taken literal.
Mad: Do you think it possible for there to be MILLIONS of King-Priests ruling with Christ?
As with any order, there logically is a Limited Number of positions to avoid the "All Chiefs, and no indians" scenario!
144,000 is symbolic and not be taken literal.
Mad: Do you think it possible for there to be MILLIONS of King-Priests ruling with Christ?
As with any order, there logically is a Limited Number of positions to avoid the "All Chiefs, and no indians" scenario!
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:10 PM
Simon-Ben-Zion, on Jun 6 2009, 04:56 PM, said:
steveyb3, on Jun 6 2009, 08:14 PM, said:
The Rapture doctrine was formed in the 1700s I believe. Very American.
The Watchtower cult has a completely different concept of the rapture than Christains and the Bible. Charles Taze Russell predicted the rapture to occur in 1878, but now the Cult teaches that the rapture of the church is a false hope. What most Christians view as the rapture, JW’s view as having occurred in 1918 (3.5 years after 1914).
Mad: LOLOLOLO!
Here we go with bigots!
What cult do YOU belong to, SBZ?
Don't you know we are not Russleites?
"Rapture" is not a biblical word, nor is the dogma; it is a teaching of CHURCHianity.
