269 replies to this topic

[Danage]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 11 2008, 01:06 AM, said:

Danage, on Aug 10 2008, 09:05 AM, said:

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 9 2008, 11:12 PM, said:

My curiosity continues...

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Only those who have been called and accept the restored Gospel shall become part of the true church.

You use the phrase restored gospel. I find that extremely interesting as to why you use that phrase. Do you believe in an apostasy? Do you believe in a restoration?

Looking forward to your comments

jrn

There is a great apostasy of the Earth. The church entered apostasy after the church of Smyrna ended. When the church entered into the Philadelphian age the Gospel was restored.

Re: Composer - your words were very hurtful on the Arian Catholic Forums. Since you are not using those words here I forgive you for what you did and would wish to have a fresh start, but I ask that you don't call my beliefs polytheism, silly etc. Toda raba.

Wow! I've never actually heard someone outside of my church with an understanding like that. What time period do you believe the apostasy of smyrna and the restoration of philadelphia to be? Also, how did you come to this conclusion scripturally.

very interesting....

jrn

The end of Ephesus came after the Apostolic Age ended. The fall of the Smyrna Church occurred between the Apostolic Age and the First Council of Nicaea. It was at the Council of Nicaea that the last vestiges of Smyrna fell. Heavily persecuted the true church had to flee from their oppressors, but to survive they had to abandon many of their practices and thus entered the Church of Pergamum Age.

The church moved into the Church Ages of Thyatira under the persecution of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Christian Orthodoxy. The Church of Sardis became reality during the 19th Century, and finally entered Laodicea in the 20th. To top that off the Church of Philadelphia emerged, a restored church, only recently, within the last decade and a half.

Edited by Danage, 11 August 2008 - 10:46 PM.

[Richie]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 10 2008, 05:06 PM, said:

Danage, on Aug 10 2008, 09:05 AM, said:

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 9 2008, 11:12 PM, said:

My curiosity continues...

Quote

Only those who have been called and accept the restored Gospel shall become part of the true church.

You use the phrase restored gospel. I find that extremely interesting as to why you use that phrase. Do you believe in an apostasy? Do you believe in a restoration?

Looking forward to your comments

jrn

There is a great apostasy of the Earth. The church entered apostasy after the church of Smyrna ended. When the church entered into the Philadelphian age the Gospel was restored.

Re: Composer - your words were very hurtful on the Arian Catholic Forums. Since you are not using those words here I forgive you for what you did and would wish to have a fresh start, but I ask that you don't call my beliefs polytheism, silly etc. Toda raba.

Wow! I've never actually heard someone outside of my church with an understanding like that. What time period do you believe the apostasy of smyrna and the restoration of philadelphia to be? Also, how did you come to this conclusion scripturally.

very interesting....

jrn

It's actually a relatively common view amongst Historicists (which Christadelphians are in the main). You ask how it's come by scripturally - well that's the problem. It's really just guesswork as far as I can make out from looking at Revelation 2-3 and trying to match the churches with phases of history. Interesting but I wouldn't put too much stock on it.

[ChiefMuzz]

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It's actually a relatively common view amongst Historicists (which Christadelphians are in the main). You ask how it's come by scripturally - well that's the problem. It's really just guesswork as far as I can make out from looking at Revelation 2-3 and trying to match the churches with phases of history. Interesting but I wouldn't put too much stock on it.

Actually if you are looking for references to the apostasy and restoration, it's fairly simple to find them spattered throughout both the OT and NT.

Since you are a 'delphian, answer this for me. I've asked quite a few others here and have received no response. What do the christadelphians believe as far as an apostasy and restoration?

As far as Revelation 2 and 3 you really have to look into history and the time periods of the church. God is using the 7 church's of asia arranged geographically to typify the church through 7 ages of time (in my opinion of course). It's really quite interesting to sit down and look at. God wasn't very thrilled with some of the church's.

thanks

jrn

[ChiefMuzz]

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THe end of Ephesus came after the Apostolic Age ended. The fall of the Smyrna Church occurred between the Apostolic Age and the First Council of Nicaea. It was at the Council of Nicaea that the last vestiges of Smyrna fell. Heavily persecuted the true church had to flee from their oppressors, but to survive they had to abandon many of their practices and thus entered the Church of Pergamum Age.

The church moved into the Church Ages of Thyatira under the persecution of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Christian Orthodoxy. The Church of Sardis became reality during the 19th Century, and finally entered Laodicea in the 20th. To top that off the Church of Philadelphia emerged, a restored church, only recently, within the last decade and a half.

Interesting view. I disagree with you however with the timing of the church's. I feel that the seven church's respresent the church through seven different periods of time or dispensations and my context is a much broader context reaching back to the creation. I have never heard this viewpoint thought. Thanks

jrn

[Richie]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 11 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

Quote

It's actually a relatively common view amongst Historicists (which Christadelphians are in the main). You ask how it's come by scripturally - well that's the problem. It's really just guesswork as far as I can make out from looking at Revelation 2-3 and trying to match the churches with phases of history. Interesting but I wouldn't put too much stock on it.

Actually if you are looking for references to the apostasy and restoration, it's fairly simple to find them spattered throughout both the OT and NT.

Since you are a 'delphian, answer this for me. I've asked quite a few others here and have received no response. What do the christadelphians believe as far as an apostasy and restoration?

Not sure what you mean by restoration but the apostasy is mentioned many times, yes. The OT apostasy of Israel, for instance, is taken up as a type in the book of Revelation to describe the development of the Christian apostasy from the first century onwards.

Quote

As far as Revelation 2 and 3 you really have to look into history and the time periods of the church. God is using the 7 church's of asia arranged geographically to typify the church through 7 ages of time (in my opinion of course). It's really quite interesting to sit down and look at. God wasn't very thrilled with some of the church's.

I am glad you mentioned it is opinion. Yes it is interesting, and traditionally this has been part of Christadelphian understanding since the days of John Thomas and his work in Eureka.

[nsr]

Richie, how "popular" would you say this idea was among Christadelphia?

I'd have to say I don't agree with it myself.

[Danage]

Well, it is very much guesswork. I am just working on the information I have to guess which churches are classed as which church era in Revelation.

My view is that the church becomes Philadelphian only for a few weeks, and then switches to Laodicea, but the Gospel is restored to the Church as the Philadelphia Era begins anew in the Modern Age.

[nsr]

I've always been wary of it as something that people (if only subconsciously) believe "because John Thomas said so".

I probably know more about church history than most, and I don't know where I'd fit the seven churches into the available time-frame. There are probably hundreds of vaguely plausible ways of doing it. I'm certainly not aware of any significant "improvements" which I would be prepared to associate with the transition from Sardis to Philadelphia.

It also seems pretty clear to me that the seven letters are intended to be concurrent rather than consecutive.

[Richie]

There is a development in the letters, but whether we can associate that with exact time periods in history is very much open to question. The downward spiral:

Ephesus - lost their first love.
Smyrna - persecuted.
Pergamos - hold false doctrine.
Thyatira - preach false doctrine.
Sardis - almost completely dead.
Philadelphia - only a little strength.
Laodicea - dead.

But that's an exhortation for all churches of all ages.

[Jeremy]

I can't see any evidence for it myself. What is there in Revelation to suggest we ought to understand the letters this way? I wonder where RR would put the revival of the true Gospel in his list, bearing in mind that be believed the return of Christ was imminent (presumably in the "period" of Laodicea).

I think Richie is right: the exhortation comes from reading everything that the Lord says (good and bad) to these seven ecclesias. It would be a sobering thing indeed if he wrote today to our own ecclesia and six nearby ecclesias - and published the results to the world!

[ChiefMuzz]

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Not sure what you mean by restoration but the apostasy is mentioned many times, yes. The OT apostasy of Israel, for instance, is taken up as a type in the book of Revelation to describe the development of the Christian apostasy from the first century onwards.

The restoration would be the reaction to the apostasy. Men leave the principles of the gospel (apostasy) and God later restores his church to earth (restoration). You can't really have one without the other. There are a number throughout history as typified by the seven church's of asia in revelation. Paul talks about, the famine of elijah is a type of it, it is covered in most of Revelation 12, God tells Noah "my spirit shall not always dwell with man", amos prophesies of it, etc.

Quote

I am glad you mentioned it is opinion. Yes it is interesting, and traditionally this has been part of Christadelphian understanding since the days of John Thomas and his work in Eureka.

The Church I believe in has no official stance on it and it is not doctrine, however I find it to be extremely interesting and have it set aside in the things-we-don't-understand-yet box.

jrn

[ChiefMuzz]

nsr, on Aug 11 2008, 07:02 PM, said:

I've always been wary of it as something that people (if only subconsciously) believe "because John Thomas said so".

I probably know more about church history than most, and I don't know where I'd fit the seven churches into the available time-frame. There are probably hundreds of vaguely plausible ways of doing it. I'm certainly not aware of any significant "improvements" which I would be prepared to associate with the transition from Sardis to Philadelphia.

It also seems pretty clear to me that the seven letters are intended to be concurrent rather than consecutive.

The order of the letters of the churches does not seem to be consecutive. They are actually ordered geographically from east to west (or west to east, I can't remember), so I don't think it is correct to assume that they are in chronological order. That is why I believe it is very hard to understand, because we are left with very little order and have to try and understand from scratch basicially.


jrn

[nsr]

Yes, I think you're right in that there is some sort of geographical ordering as well. I remember hearing that it's the order you would travel in if you were starting at Patmos and visiting those seven churches.

[Jeremy]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 12 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

The order of the letters of the churches does not seem to be consecutive. They are actually ordered geographically from east to west (or west to east, I can't remember), so I don't think it is correct to assume that they are in chronological order. That is why I believe it is very hard to understand, because we are left with very little order and have to try and understand from scratch

If you plot the ecclesias on a map, you see that they are named in Revelation in the order that John's messenger from Patmos might have delivered the letters - starting at Ephesus on the coast, heading north, then sweeping south and inland to finish at Laodicea.

The thing which tells me that we're not to look at the ecclesias as phases of some kind of church history is that Jesus is walking amongst the lampstands (all seven of them at the same time) when John first sees him in ch. 1.

[ChiefMuzz]

Jeremy, on Aug 12 2008, 09:58 AM, said:

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 12 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

The order of the letters of the churches does not seem to be consecutive. They are actually ordered geographically from east to west (or west to east, I can't remember), so I don't think it is correct to assume that they are in chronological order. That is why I believe it is very hard to understand, because we are left with very little order and have to try and understand from scratch

If you plot the ecclesias on a map, you see that they are named in Revelation in the order that John's messenger from Patmos might have delivered the letters - starting at Ephesus on the coast, heading north, then sweeping south and inland to finish at Laodicea.

The thing which tells me that we're not to look at the ecclesias as phases of some kind of church history is that Jesus is walking amongst the lampstands (all seven of them at the same time) when John first sees him in ch. 1.

I guess that would be a correct interpretation if you interpreted the lampstands to be the churches.

Thanks for the clarification on the geography. I just couldn't remember which way it went.

jrn

[Jeremy]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 12 2008, 03:00 PM, said:

I guess that would be a correct interpretation if you interpreted the lampstands to be the churches.

Rev. 1 v 20.

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Thanks for the clarification on the geography. I just couldn't remember which way it went.

[ChiefMuzz]

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Rev. 1 v 20.

Yeah I realized that after I responded and pulled out my bible...haha

I'm not convinced that they are concurrent. I guess since you are a Cdelph you can only say it is concurrent since you don't believe in a pre-existant Christ.
Oh well, interesting either way.

jrn

[nsr]

Christ doesn't need to be pre-existent to be involved in the affairs of the churches at the end of the first century

[ChiefMuzz]

nsr, on Aug 12 2008, 10:44 AM, said:

Christ doesn't need to be pre-existent to be involved in the affairs of the churches at the end of the first century

But he does need to be pre-existant if you are going to apply those chapters throughout time from the creation on. That was what I was saying

[nsr]

Ah, I see. Well, I don't think Revelation can be applied from creation onwards, because Rev 1:1 says it's about things "which must shortly take place". I think Christadelphians who apply the seven letters to seven periods of church history do so from AD 90-something onwards.

[Richie]

ChiefMuzz, on Aug 12 2008, 06:37 AM, said:

Paul talks about, the famine of elijah is a type of it, it is covered in most of Revelation 12

Interesting you mention the famine of Elijah in relation to Revelation 12. I believe that chapter takes up the 3 1/2 years and applies it to the time when the true church was in a spiritual famine for 1260 years (or thereabouts, I think it's more of a representative number in reality rather than exactly that amount), i.e. from the days of Constantine (the man child) to the 16th century when the church started to emerge from the wilderness through the efforts of men like Tyndale. Revelation 16 takes up the baton where, in the context of the vials, it quotes from the time when the famine ended. The problem is that the age of freedom that began in the 16th century and led through the reformation, the age of enlightenment and to the present day, is a two-edged sword. Indeed the dragon, beast and false prophet, who in the earlier vials were the subject of the vials of wrath so that the world could be freed from them, become the champions of freedom in the 6th vial. All very fascinating stuff.

[Richie]

Revelation 16:15, the exhortation regarding Armageddon (a time period I believe we're in right now) takes up language used in the letters to Sardis and Laodicea, telling me that those two, at least, provide concurrent exhortation.

[ChiefMuzz]

Quote

Interesting you mention the famine of Elijah in relation to Revelation 12. I believe that chapter takes up the 3 1/2 years and applies it to the time when the true church was in a spiritual famine for 1260 years (or thereabouts, I think it's more of a representative number in reality rather than exactly that amount), i.e. from the days of Constantine (the man child) to the 16th century when the church started to emerge from the wilderness through the efforts of men like Tyndale. Revelation 16 takes up the baton where, in the context of the vials, it quotes from the time when the famine ended. The problem is that the age of freedom that began in the 16th century and led through the reformation, the age of enlightenment and to the present day, is a two-edged sword. Indeed the dragon, beast and false prophet, who in the earlier vials were the subject of the vials of wrath so that the world could be freed from them, become the champions of freedom in the 6th vial. All very fascinating stuff.

Revelation 12 mention the time period twice in 2 different forms: 1260 years and time, times, and the dividing of time. In simple algebra this would be times (2A) + time (A) + dividing of time (1/2 A). A being 1 this would give you 2 + 1 + 1/2+ 3 1/2. I believe both the famine prophesied by Amos and the famine of elijah are both types of this time period.

jrn

[Jeremy]

Richie, on Aug 12 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

Revelation 16:15, the exhortation regarding Armageddon (a time period I believe we're in right now) takes up language used in the letters to Sardis and Laodicea, telling me that those two, at least, provide concurrent exhortation.

That doesn't prove that there is a whole sequence, though - merely that the same language is used. But you might not be suggesting that anyway.

[Richie]

Jeremy, on Aug 12 2008, 07:44 AM, said:

Richie, on Aug 12 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

Revelation 16:15, the exhortation regarding Armageddon (a time period I believe we're in right now) takes up language used in the letters to Sardis and Laodicea, telling me that those two, at least, provide concurrent exhortation.

That doesn't prove that there is a whole sequence, though - merely that the same language is used. But you might not be suggesting that anyway.

No, I was suggesting the opposite! The fact that it uses language from two letters regarding the same time period shows to me that the same problems exist at the same time.

There are elements of all seven problems/successes in all churches for all times throughout history I would imagine.

[nsr]

Richie, on Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

There are elements of all seven problems/successes in all churches for all times throughout history I would imagine.

[Danage]

Richie, on Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

No, I was suggesting the opposite! The fact that it uses language from two letters regarding the same time period shows to me that the same problems exist at the same time.

There are elements of all seven problems/successes in all churches for all times throughout history I would imagine.

That is possible, but I think it says in Thessalonians 1 or 2 that there would be a great apostasy, and thus I conclude, that the Gospel would have to be restored, and thus the Philadelphia Era begins with that restoration.

[Richie]

Danage, on Aug 15 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

Richie, on Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

No, I was suggesting the opposite! The fact that it uses language from two letters regarding the same time period shows to me that the same problems exist at the same time.

There are elements of all seven problems/successes in all churches for all times throughout history I would imagine.

That is possible, but I think it says in Thessalonians 1 or 2 that there would be a great apostasy,

Yes, in 2 Thessalonians.

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and thus I conclude, that the Gospel would have to be restored, and thus the Philadelphia Era begins with that restoration.

Yes the Gospel would have to be restored, and it was, but why link that with a Philadelphian "era"? Why make the link at all?

[Danage]

Richie, on Aug 15 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

Yes the Gospel would have to be restored, and it was, but why link that with a Philadelphian "era"? Why make the link at all?

Sardis is said to have the name, but is dead, so the Philadelphia Era would need to begin with a restoration of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

[Danage]

If you'd like to throw the questions (and citations) at me again (one at a time), I will now endeavour to answer them to the best of my ability. If I can't answer the question I'll say so and then we can move on.

Edited by Danage, 01 September 2008 - 08:29 PM.