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The Mosaic Law


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#1 Danage

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 02:16 PM

I don't know where to put this so I have put it here. If it is in the wrong section then I do apologise.

I would like to quote something from my second book about the Mosaic Law still being binding. See below.

"Evidences for the Law of G-d still being Binding
In this section I aim to prove that the Law is still binding upon all Christians.
Isaiah 40:8: ‘The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our G-d shall stand for ever.
Daniel 9:27: ‘And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate’.
Here it says Christ would confirm the Covenant, still being binding, and would cause the sacrifices, the only part of the Covenant to be cancelled, to cease.
This logically tells us that the word of G-d can never be abolished.
Christ said: ‘It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of G-d’ (Matthew 4:4).
Christ said: ‘If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love’ (John 15:10).
Acts 18:21: ‘But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if G-d will. And he sailed from Ephesus’.
The Feasts were still kept by the Judaeo-Christians and Gentile Christians.
Acts 24:14: ‘But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the G-d of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets’.
Romans 2:21: ‘Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?’.
Romans 3:20: ‘Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin’.
Romans 3:31: ‘Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law’.
Romans 6:16: ‘Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?’.
Romans 8:6-7: ‘For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be’.
Romans 10:5: ‘For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them’.
1 Corinthians 5:7-8: For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast’.
My favourite piece of scripture for backing up my claims: ‘Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of G-d, and the faith of Jesus’ (Revelation 14:12)."

Please tell me what you think. Thank you.

Edited by Danage, 13 April 2008 - 02:16 PM.


#2 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 04:24 PM

Danage, please consider the context of the quotations you make. Are you taking the quotation out of context and thereby misrepresenting it? Certainly in some of the contexts, I believe you are. For example, in Romans 3, you quoted verses 20 and 31. But what does the passage say in between? It does not support your claim that only the sacrifices were "cancelled"! Here is a fuller quotation:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is emphatic that keeping the law cannot save us; rather we must believe what God says, as Abraham did. Therefore if you assert that we must keep the law, you are disagreeing with the inspired apostle!

#3 Danage

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 08:12 PM

Danage, please consider the context of the quotations you make. Are you taking the quotation out of context and thereby misrepresenting it? Certainly in some of the contexts, I believe you are. For example, in Romans 3, you quoted verses 20 and 31. But what does the passage say in between? It does not support your claim that only the sacrifices were "cancelled"! Here is a fuller quotation:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is emphatic that keeping the law cannot save us; rather we must believe what God says, as Abraham did. Therefore if you assert that we must keep the law, you are disagreeing with the inspired apostle!


It is true that grace and faith, not the law, saved us, but I still believe the Mosaic Law is binding on Christians.

#4 Dawn

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 08:44 PM

Danage, please consider the context of the quotations you make. Are you taking the quotation out of context and thereby misrepresenting it? Certainly in some of the contexts, I believe you are. For example, in Romans 3, you quoted verses 20 and 31. But what does the passage say in between? It does not support your claim that only the sacrifices were "cancelled"! Here is a fuller quotation:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is emphatic that keeping the law cannot save us; rather we must believe what God says, as Abraham did. Therefore if you assert that we must keep the law, you are disagreeing with the inspired apostle!


It is true that grace and faith, not the law, saved us, but I still believe the Mosaic Law is binding on Christians.

The apostle Paul says not - are you an Ebionite?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#5 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 10:09 PM

Hi Danage,

It is true that grace and faith, not the law, saved us, but I still believe the Mosaic Law is binding on Christians.

Can I suggest you take the time to read the letter to the Galatians (all of it) carefully? It is very much concerned with this issue. In that letter, Paul reasons powerfully with Gentile believers who had been persuaded by false teachers that they had to keep the law of Moses. Paul shows that that is not true, and indeed would oppose the principles of the gospel. For example, in chapter 3 we read:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

According to what Paul. writing by the spirit of God, says here, if you think you have to keep the law of Moses, you are bringing yourself under the curse of the law (v10). If you fail to keep all things that are written in it (and you will - see Romans 3:23, quoted in my previous comment) , then all the curses come upon you. Even breaking just one commandment means you have broken the whole law (James 2:10). According to 3:1, it is foolish to think as you do. It is a wrong idea, and a very serious matter - if you continue to think that, then the work of Christ can be of no benefit to you - see Galatians 5:1-4.

Also, I note that you speak of the law being "binding". Galatians 4:21 onwards says:

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Your "binding" is exactly the "bondage to the law" that Paul says all believers in Christ are freed from!

Danage, again I say; please read the letter to Galatians carefully for yourself, and consider the significance of what it says. Then ask yourself whether a church such as the one you are associated with, if it tells you that the law of Moses is still binding, is telling you the truth, or is actually opposing the word of God?

Edited by Mark Taunton, 13 April 2008 - 10:10 PM.


#6 Danage

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:04 AM

The apostle Paul says not - are you an Ebionite?


What's that?

Hi Danage,

It is true that grace and faith, not the law, saved us, but I still believe the Mosaic Law is binding on Christians.

Can I suggest you take the time to read the letter to the Galatians (all of it) carefully? It is very much concerned with this issue. In that letter, Paul reasons powerfully with Gentile believers who had been persuaded by false teachers that they had to keep the law of Moses. Paul shows that that is not true, and indeed would oppose the principles of the gospel. For example, in chapter 3 we read:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

According to what Paul. writing by the spirit of God, says here, if you think you have to keep the law of Moses, you are bringing yourself under the curse of the law (v10). If you fail to keep all things that are written in it (and you will - see Romans 3:23, quoted in my previous comment) , then all the curses come upon you. Even breaking just one commandment means you have broken the whole law (James 2:10). According to 3:1, it is foolish to think as you do. It is a wrong idea, and a very serious matter - if you continue to think that, then the work of Christ can be of no benefit to you - see Galatians 5:1-4.

Also, I note that you speak of the law being "binding". Galatians 4:21 onwards says:

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Your "binding" is exactly the "bondage to the law" that Paul says all believers in Christ are freed from!

Danage, again I say; please read the letter to Galatians carefully for yourself, and consider the significance of what it says. Then ask yourself whether a church such as the one you are associated with, if it tells you that the law of Moses is still binding, is telling you the truth, or is actually opposing the word of God?


I think that Paul is misquoted, but how do you explain away the Epistle to the Romans which puts such emphasis on keeping the Law?

#7 Jon D

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:38 AM

I think that Paul is misquoted, but how do you explain away the Epistle to the Romans which puts such emphasis on keeping the Law?


Can you explain further why you think Paul to be misquoted? As another question - could you show me an occasion in the early ecclesia where the law is kept in the same way that the CCG do?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus


#8 Jeremy

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:55 AM

I think that Paul is misquoted, but how do you explain away the Epistle to the Romans which puts such emphasis on keeping the Law?

You mean like Romans 7 v 4-6?

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

I don't mean to be rude, Danage, but the fact that the Law of Moses is no longer binding on Christians is one of the easiest New Testament doctrines to prove. I think this thread is pretty pointless.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#9 paulmerrill

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 03:00 PM

I think that Paul is misquoted, but how do you explain away the Epistle to the Romans which puts such emphasis on keeping the Law?

You mean like Romans 7 v 4-6?

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

I don't mean to be rude, Danage, but the fact that the Law of Moses is no longer binding on Christians is one of the easiest New Testament doctrines to prove. I think this thread is pretty pointless.



Hello
I am new to this forum.
If we are followers of Christ aren't we commanded to turn away from sin. Is not sin transgression of Gods Law?
Without the Law as our guide then we can do as we please along as we has faith in Christ.

I agree we are not saved by works or the keeping of the Law, but by the grace of God & the sacrifice of Christ,
who nailed our death sentence to the stake.

Christ even took the law to another level That if we sin in our own mind we are guilty. Thus we can never attain perfection or slavation buy keeping the Law because we will all fall short. but should we turn away from sin.

How do we then show God that we love Him? Is it not through obedience to his commandments?

We are challenged to be more like Christ. He kept all the Laws, Sabbaths & Holy Days, Because if he did not
then he would have been sinners & Christ was our prefect sacrifice & sinless.

I think this is a great topic for debate and is not always an easy subject.

It is not one then easiest topic to prove
because Paul's letter leave room for debate on both sides of the issue and must be weighed against the other gospels
and Christ own testimony as well as the Old Testament & the Prophets

Even in the book of revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the
faith of Jesus. NKJV.

I would love to hear more on both sides of this issue. If we are all honest in our search for the God's truth then I pray that everyone on this forum will be given understanding (me included)

Thanks for the opportunity to ask some questions

Much love & prays to all,

Paul

#10 Jeremy

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 03:21 PM

Hello
I am new to this forum.
If we are followers of Christ aren't we commanded to turn away from sin. Is not sin transgression of Gods Law?
Without the Law as our guide then we can do as we please along as we has faith in Christ.

I agree we are not saved by works or the keeping of the Law, but by the grace of God & the sacrifice of Christ,
who nailed our death sentence to the stake.

Christ even took the law to another level That if we sin in our own mind we are guilty. Thus we can never attain perfection or slavation buy keeping the Law because we will all fall short. but should we turn away from sin.

How do we then show God that we love Him? Is it not through obedience to his commandments?

We are challenged to be more like Christ. He kept all the Laws, Sabbaths & Holy Days, Because if he did not
then he would have been sinners & Christ was our prefect sacrifice & sinless.

I think this is a great topic for debate and is not always an easy subject.

It is not one then easiest topic to prove
because Paul's letter leave room for debate on both sides of the issue and must be weighed against the other gospels
and Christ own testimony as well as the Old Testament & the Prophets

Even in the book of revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the
faith of Jesus. NKJV.

I would love to hear more on both sides of this issue. If we are all honest in our search for the God's truth then I pray that everyone on this forum will be given understanding (me included)

Thanks for the opportunity to ask some questions

Much love & prays to all,

Paul

Hi, Paul, and welcome to the forum!

Yes, sin is transgression of God's law - good definition. God's laws have not always been the same for all people, however: some things forbidden to Jews under the Law of Moses are now permitted to Christian believers. Obedience to God's commandments is an essential element of the Christian life, but that does not include obedience to the Law of Moses if this is no longer binding on us. Indeed, Paul and the other apostles positively taught that obedience to the Law of Moses should not be enforced on Christians. Off the top of my head, this is covered in Acts 15, Galatians, Romans and parts of Hebrews. Other passages too.

Jesus was a Jew subject to the Law of Moses, but we are not: that Law has been abolished (even though elements of it remain part of Christian discipleship). I don't think there can be much doubt about this, as I can't think of a New Testament passage which says that Christians should observe the Law of Moses, but maybe we can usefully discuss it here.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#11 Danage

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:37 PM

Paul, you've got it on the head, there are two sides to the argument, and lots of evidence both ways. You even cited my favourite passage of Scripture (and the best one for backing up my claims), which is Revelation 14:12. Revelation 14:12 also makes a clear distinction between G-d and Christ, proving they are seperate beings (of which we all agree on), and that the Law of G-d is different, but still in harmony, with the Faith of Jesus.

In answer to Elimelech's questions: Paul is often misquoted, as is nearly every passage of Scripture, as no translations are perfect, only the original documents. The AV, for example, has had corruption (the most obvious is in Acts where the translators intentionally mis-translated Pesach, Pascha, as Easter) within its covers. Every translation has error. In Acts of the Apostles the Apostles kept to Passover, and they were under the greater (as in expanded) Covenant, so if they kept to the Passover, why shouldn't we? We are indeed saved by grace (Sola Gratia) and faith (Sola Fide) and see the Bible as the standard (Sola Scriptura), but the Bible is in harmony with itself (for example Daniel 9:27 says Christ would confirm, not cancel, the Covenent with many for a week (seven years)), and since the church is the spiritual Israel and Judea, then the law of the Jews still applies to the true Churches of G-d. Is the Bible, or the translation, infallible? Paul said 'let us keep the feast' in reference to the Passover, so if Paul commanded that, and I know you Christadelphians put much emphasis on Paul, then surely it is in harmony with Matthew 4:4? I think so.

#12 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:54 PM

Danage

Acts says nothing about the apostles or any of the 1st C christians celebrating Passover.
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#13 Danage

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:57 PM

Danage

Acts says nothing about the apostles or any of the 1st C christians celebrating Passover.


You're right, it doesn't, well not in the AV anyway. In the original it said they celebrated Passover. The AV translators intentionally mis-translated it into Easter. Paul also said we should keep the Passover.

#14 Mark Taunton

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:59 PM


Your "binding" is exactly the "bondage to the law" that Paul says all believers in Christ are freed from!

Danage, again I say; please read the letter to Galatians carefully for yourself, and consider the significance of what it says. Then ask yourself whether a church such as the one you are associated with, if it tells you that the law of Moses is still binding, is telling you the truth, or is actually opposing the word of God?


I think that Paul is misquoted, but how do you explain away the Epistle to the Romans which puts such emphasis on keeping the Law?

In a later post you implied that by "misquoted", you mean Paul's words are mistranslated. In respect of the passages in Galatians I quoted, the words seem clear to me, and I'm not aware of any serious questions over what the text says or means there. Can you point out where you think there is any mistranslation? If not, please accept the logic of Paul's statements, and realise that Christians are indeed freed from bondage to the law of Moses!

#15 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:05 PM

Paul, you've got it on the head, there are two sides to the argument, and lots of evidence both ways. You even cited my favourite passage of Scripture (and the best one for backing up my claims), which is Revelation 14:12. Revelation 14:12 also makes a clear distinction between G-d and Christ, proving they are seperate beings (of which we all agree on), and that the Law of G-d is different, but still in harmony, with the Faith of Jesus.

In answer to Elimelech's questions: Paul is often misquoted, as is nearly every passage of Scripture, as no translations are perfect, only the original documents. The AV, for example, has had corruption (the most obvious is in Acts where the translators intentionally mis-translated Pesach, Pascha, as Easter) within its covers. Every translation has error. In Acts of the Apostles the Apostles kept to Passover, and they were under the greater (as in expanded) Covenant, so if they kept to the Passover, why shouldn't we? We are indeed saved by grace (Sola Gratia) and faith (Sola Fide) and see the Bible as the standard (Sola Scriptura),



Sola Scriptura does not mean "the Bible is the standard", it means "by scripture alone". I you do not believe this, as you refer to Mohammed as a prophet, and also Zoraster and Wade Cox.

but the Bible is in harmony with itself (for example Daniel 9:27 says Christ would confirm, not cancel, the Covenent with many for a week (seven years)), and since the church is the spiritual Israel and Judea, then the law of the Jews still applies to the true Churches of G-d. Is the Bible, or the translation, infallible? Paul said 'let us keep the feast' in reference to the Passover, so if Paul commanded that, and I know you Christadelphians put much emphasis on Paul, then surely it is in harmony with Matthew 4:4? I think so.


Where does he say this?
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#16 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:08 PM

Danage

Acts says nothing about the apostles or any of the 1st C christians celebrating Passover.


You're right, it doesn't, well not in the AV anyway. In the original it said they celebrated Passover. The AV translators intentionally mis-translated it into Easter. Paul also said we should keep the Passover.



I'm aware of the "easter" passage. It still says nothing about 1st C Christians celebrating it. The passage (Acts 12) tells us when Peter was put in prison, not that he was celebrating it.
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#17 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:49 AM

Paul, you've got it on the head, there are two sides to the argument, and lots of evidence both ways.

Let's see the evidence then, please. It's conspicuous by its absence so far.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#18 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:00 AM

Sola Scriptura does not mean "the Bible is the standard", it means "by scripture alone". I you do not believe this, as you refer to Mohammed as a prophet, and also Zoraster and Wade Cox.


I am aware that Sola Scriptura means Scripture Alone, I was just putting it in a different way (e.g. Sola, Solus and Soli all mean alone, such as Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Soli Deo Gloria (Glory to G-d alone) and Solus Christus (Christ alone))

but the Bible is in harmony with itself (for example Daniel 9:27 says Christ would confirm, not cancel, the Covenent with many for a week (seven years)), and since the church is the spiritual Israel and Judea, then the law of the Jews still applies to the true Churches of G-d. Is the Bible, or the translation, infallible? Paul said 'let us keep the feast' in reference to the Passover, so if Paul commanded that, and I know you Christadelphians put much emphasis on Paul, then surely it is in harmony with Matthew 4:4? I think so.


Where does he say this?


It says in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

Both the ACC and CCG keep to the Passover and all the Ceremonial Sabbaths. They just keep to them at different times.

If Christ was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb, and Christ only cancelled the sacrifices, then we are still required to keep the feast according to Paul.

#19 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:03 AM

Sola Scriptura does not mean "the Bible is the standard", it means "by scripture alone". I you do not believe this, as you refer to Mohammed as a prophet, and also Zoraster and Wade Cox.


Now that is going too far. I definately do not see Wade Cox as a prophet, merely someone who restored Biblical Truths to the Churches of G-d.

#20 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:07 AM

Has anyone on this board heard of the expression 'set in stone'?

When something is set in stone it is final and unbreakable, yes?

The Ten Commandments were set in stone by Almighty G-d, and, although Moses smashed them because the golden calf, G-d never repealed them. If G-d never repealed them and Christ confirmed the Covenant then we are still bound by them all, not just the nine that conveniantly forget the commandment that says 'Remember'.

#21 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:24 AM

Has anyone on this board heard of the expression 'set in stone'?

When something is set in stone it is final and unbreakable, yes?

The Ten Commandments were set in stone by Almighty G-d, and, although Moses smashed them because the golden calf, G-d never repealed them. If G-d never repealed them and Christ confirmed the Covenant then we are still bound by them all, not just the nine that conveniantly forget the commandment that says 'Remember'.

We're not talking about the ten commandments; we're talking about the Law of Moses. The ten commandments were only a small part of the Law (and in the light of Col. 2:16, only nine of them are probably binding on Christians anyway). Don't change the subject.

Likewise the covenant is not the Law of Moses. You're talking about two different things.

I'm asking again: let's see hard and fast NT evidence that Christians need to keep the Law of Moses. Then we can look at all the verses which tell us it isn't.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#22 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:27 AM

We're not talking about the ten commandments; we're talking about the Law of Moses. The ten commandments were only a small part of the Law (and in the light of Col. 2:16, only nine of them are probably binding on Christians anyway). Don't change the subject.

Likewise the covenant is not the Law of Moses. You're talking about two different things.

I'm asking again: let's see hard and fast NT evidence that Christians need to keep the Law of Moses. Then we can look at all the verses which tell us it isn't.


I have presented the evidence above.

#23 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:30 AM

I have presented the evidence above.

Where?
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#24 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:32 AM

I have presented the evidence above.

Where?


I have presented the evidence from the Bible in my first post and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 to back up my belief that the Law is still binding.

#25 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:45 AM

I have presented the evidence from the Bible in my first post and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 to back up my belief that the Law is still binding.

None of the passages from Isaiah 40 to John 15 are talking about the Law of Moses.

The Acts passages: Paul was a Jew, born subject to the Law of Moses. If you are in the same position, and therefore at least 2,000 years old, then I guess you too are at liberty to try and observe the Law. But unless you are able to offer animal sacrifices in a temple which doesn't exist any more, even that might be a bit of a challenge.

The Romans passages need to be read in the light of the overall epistle, not plucked out of context as you have done. I have already shown you Rom. 7 v 4-6, which I note you have missed off your list.

As 1 Cor. 5 says, Christ is our Passover. Plainly this is the sacrifice Paul is telling us to commemorate, not animals. Or do you offer animal sacrifices?

Is there any more evidence, or shall we turn to the NT passages which teach the opposite of what you're suggesting? Not meant unkindlly, but this subject really is very clearly addressed in Scripture.

Edited by Jeremy, 15 April 2008 - 10:46 AM.

And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#26 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:45 AM

Isaiah 42:21: 'The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake: he will magnify the law, and make it honourable'

#27 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:49 AM

Only the animal sacrifices were cancelled (hence why the Temple was later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E.), as Christ was also our Passover Lamb. The rest remain binding, however.

#28 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 10:52 AM

Isaiah 42:21: 'The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake: he will magnify the law, and make it honourable'

God did. But this passage says nothing about Christians keeping it.

Only the animal sacrifices were cancelled (hence why the Temple was later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E.), as Christ was also our Passover Lamb. The rest remain binding, however.

Evidence, please.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#29 Danage

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 11:06 AM

Isaiah 42:21: 'The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake: he will magnify the law, and make it honourable'

God did. But this passage says nothing about Christians keeping it.


It doesn't say that Christians shouldn't keep it either!

Only the animal sacrifices were cancelled (hence why the Temple was later destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E.), as Christ was also our Passover Lamb. The rest remain binding, however.

Evidence, please.


Christ said 'It is finished', this is not in reference to the Law, but just to the sacrifices as, as tradition has it, the curtain in the Temple split in two and the Lamb got away, indicating that Christ was the Passover Lamb, but that he was not there to do away with the Law. Christ confirmed the Covenant and added laws that were relevent to the Law, that fully encompassed the Law, so if Christ said in Matthew 4:4 that we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d then we are to keep to every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d, for the law is holy and perfect.

#30 Jeremy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 11:15 AM

It doesn't say that Christians shouldn't keep it either!

But other passages do. We'll get on to them shortly.

Christ said 'It is finished', this is not in reference to the Law, but just to the sacrifices

You need to find some Bible verses to back this up, please.

as tradition has it, the curtain in the Temple split in two and the Lamb got away

Not interested in tradition, thanks.

Christ confirmed the Covenant and added laws that were relevent to the Law, that fully encompassed the Law

Still waiting for Bible verses in support of this.

so if Christ said in Matthew 4:4 that we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d then we are to keep to every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d, for the law is holy and perfect.

So you're saying that every one of us has to do everything that God has ever said to anyone? I think you need to think through the implications of that before you start killing a few Canaanite babies.

Still looking for one NT passage which states unequivocally that the Law of Moses (not just bits of it) is binding on Christians.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.




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