100 replies to this topic

[Me2007]

Who is the father in this scripture?

John 8:44 (NWT)
YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

[Amy Parkin]

If you father something then you create it (our fathers created us, through their seed, for example) so doesn't it just mean that he is the producer of the lie?

[nightmare]

YOUR father the Devil Pretty self-explanatory The Devil

[Stephen]

Jesus is using a rhetorical device. The Devil here is not a literal person. If one believes that this devil is a literal person, then they must believe it is Abraham as plainly stated in 8:56.

Quote

Strong's Number: 1228
diavboloß
Definition
prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer, metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Note who Jesus is talking to in 8:31 (Those Judeans that believed him).

In 8:37 Jesus says that the Judeans are sons of Abraham.

In 8:38 Jesus says the Judeans should be doing the things they have heard from the "Father". In this case, it looks like Jesus was talking about God and the Judeans were talking about Abraham in the next verse.

In 8:39 the Judeans claim Abraham as their father and in 8:39-41 Jesus explains that they are not acting like the sons of Abraham.

In 8:41 the Judeans claim God as their father. In 8:42 Jesus explains that they are not acting like the sons of God.

In 8:44 Jesus explains that the Judeans were acting like sons of the devil (see definition) and therefore must be his son.

In 8:56 Jesus identifies Abraham as their father.

[nightmare]

Adraham the devil were do you guys come up with this stuff? I believe the devil is real and no I dont think he is abraham what a joke

[R2D2]

Me2007, on Feb 27 2008, 08:31 AM, said:

Who is the father in this scripture?

John 8:44 (NWT)
YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

The father is our own sinful inclination. The key here in your verse is that we wish to do the desires of our father.

Consider....

Quote

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal,sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:for to will is present with me; but1161 how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity, 5 to the law1 of sin which is in my members.

Contrast with:

Quote

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil? By providing an atonement for our sins. The beginning is obviously the garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve were the first people to sin.

[composer]

I believe it is speaking of Adam

"A Question Of Fatherhood" by J. Martin: -

John says that "the devil sinneth from the beginning" (1- John 3:8)

Who sinned from the beginning?

By one MAN sin entered the world! (Romans 5:12)

If the devil sinned from the beginning and sin entered the world by one MAN, then MAN was the devil!

The alleged naughty spirit angel didn't ' sin from the beginning ' because it is claimed it was perfect in its ways from the beginning and held a high privileged office next to God and became naughty afterwards.

Edited by composer, 27 February 2008 - 01:05 AM.

[R2D2]

nightmare, on Feb 27 2008, 10:26 AM, said:

Adraham the devil were do you guys come up with this stuff? I believe the devil is real and no I dont think he is abraham what a joke

This post is not constructive and does not in any way address the argument except through ridicule.

[R2D2]

composer, on Feb 27 2008, 12:02 PM, said:

If the devil sinned from the beginning and sin entered the world by one MAN, then MAN was the devil!

Also it doesn't make sense for a person devil to sin from the beginning, because it contradicts with the idea that the "fallen angel" was first obedient and then later fell from grace.

[Evangelion]

Me2007, on Feb 26 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

Who is the father in this scripture?

John 8:44 (NWT)
YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

I take the view of Christian scholars John Locke, W. M. L. De Wette and Henry Alford, who all argued that this is a clear reference to Cain. Jesus' accusation is deliberately contrasted against the Jews' claim to be the sons of Abraham (verse 39). Notice that "the devil" is defined first and foremost by his status as "murderer", while "liar" is a secondary charge.

Why is that significant? Because it is exactly what the Genesis record tells us about Cain:

Genesis 4:8-10
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

First the murder, and then the lie.

Hence:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

First the murder, and then the lie.

By contrast, the serpent of Eden lies, but commits no murder. "But how can you say this?" I hear you ask.

Well...

• Remember that murder is defined by intent to kill, which the serpent never had.
  
  
• Remember also that Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit of their own free will. That is precisely why God punished them for their actions. (If they had merely been victims of the serpent's cunning, what legitimate basis would God have for punishing them?)

There is nothing in John 8:44 which will permit the arbitrary insertion of the Eden serpent.

[Evangelion]

I John 3:8 also bears examination:

I John 3:8-12
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

I think it's possible to take the word diabolos in both senses here; first as a reference to Cain (concurring with John 8:44) and then as a personification of the human propensity to sin. Verse 8 seems too close to John 8:44 for coincidence - but it appears to be qualified by the words "that he might destroy the works of the devil", which is a clear reference to human nature.

Then later, we see that Cain is referred to as being "of that wicked one", which again supports the personification argument. So I'll go for personification here.

My article on the personification of sin might also be useful.

[Jeremy]

nightmare, on Feb 26 2008, 11:26 PM, said:

Adraham the devil were do you guys come up with this stuff? I believe the devil is real and no I dont think he is abraham what a joke

Nobody's said that. You've misread Stephen's post.

[Evangelion]

Moving this thread to Demonology...

[philip]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 05:52 AM, said:

First the murder, and then the lie.

By contrast, the serpent of Eden lies, but commits no murder. "But how can you say this?" I hear you ask.

Well...

• Remember that murder is defined by intent to kill, which the serpent never had.
  
  
• Remember also that Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit of their own free will. That is precisely why God punished them for their actions. (If they had merely been victims of the serpent's cunning, what legitimate basis would God have for punishing them?)

There is nothing in John 8:44 which will permit the arbitrary insertion of the Eden serpent.

I would like to suggest a different point of view on this. I think that the father of John 8:44 is the serpent of Eden and that he can be described as a murderer from the beginning because of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel".

The bruising in the heel seems to be a reference to the killing of Jesus, and while it was the seed of the serpent that demonstrated the intent to do this, it can be described as the action of the serpent himself because his seed follow in the spirit their father. Hence 1 John 3:12 can describe Cain as being "of that wicked one" because he manifested that serpent inspired attitude of rebellion against God.

Philip

[Evangelion]

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

[Jeremy]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

It persuaded Eve to do something which killed her.

[Evangelion]

How is that murder?

[Jeremy]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

How is that murder?

In the same way Paul describes in the parallel in Romans 7 v 13:

"Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."

Sin (those natural impulses to disobedience in Paul's own body) used "that which is good" (the commandment of God) to "cause [his] death" (i.e., to show how sinful he was, and that he therefore deserved to die.

Likewise the serpent (an external impulse to sin in Eve's case) used the very commandment of God ("Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?", Gen. 3 v 1) to "effect her death".

In both cases, it was the commandment of God which showed that Eve and Paul were guilty. The serpent brought about Eve's death through his work (as our own sinful tendencies will do to us if left unchecked), and can therefore rightly be described as a murderer.

Hope that helps.

[philip]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

Genesis 3v15 says that the Serpent himself would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. The serpent did not literally murder Jesus himself, that deed was performed by the Jewish leaders (Acts 7:52). I am sugesting that if those who killed Jesus can be described as the seed of the serpent, then it is right to describe the father of that household as a murderer because he initiated the attitudes that lead to the killing of Jesus.

[Evangelion]

Jeremy, on Feb 27 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

How is that murder?

In the same way Paul describes in the parallel in Romans 7 v 13:

"Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."

Sin (those natural impulses to disobedience in Paul's own body) used "that which is good" (the commandment of God) to "cause [his] death" (i.e., to show how sinful he was, and that he therefore deserved to die.

Likewise the serpent (an external impulse to sin in Eve's case) used the very commandment of God ("Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?", Gen. 3 v 1) to "effect her death".

In both cases, it was the commandment of God which showed that Eve and Paul were guilty. The serpent brought about Eve's death through his work (as our own sinful tendencies will do to us if left unchecked), and can therefore rightly be described as a murderer.

Hope that helps.

Murder requires intent to kill. I see no evidence that this was the serpent's motivation.

Your parallel to Romans 7 is a fair one, but Paul does not describe the process as murder.

[Evangelion]

philip, on Feb 27 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

Genesis 3v15 says that the Serpent himself would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. The serpent did not literally murder Jesus himself, that deed was performed by the Jewish leaders (Acts 7:52). I am sugesting that if those who killed Jesus can be described as the seed of the serpent, then it is right to describe the father of that household as a murderer because he initiated the attitudes that lead to the killing of Jesus.

I see what you're saying, but I don't believe this proves that the serpent is the "murderer" referred to in John 8:44.

I certainly don't see that the murder of Christ by the Pharisees makes the serpent of Eden a murderer himself.

[Jeremy]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

Murder requires intent to kill. I see no evidence that this was the serpent's motivation.

Is that the intent of the word "murderer" in John 8 v 44? I've had a quick look at Vine's etc. and it isn't clear whether the Greek requires intent as the English word would. Literally it's just "manslayer" (I guess equal to "homicide"?).

[Jeremy]

P.S. The serpent is called "liar" in the same verse, which would imply intent to deceive. On that basis, I would be happy to attribute intent to kill if it was required by the Greek.

[Richie]

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 05:57 AM, said:

philip, on Feb 27 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

Genesis 3v15 says that the Serpent himself would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. The serpent did not literally murder Jesus himself, that deed was performed by the Jewish leaders (Acts 7:52). I am sugesting that if those who killed Jesus can be described as the seed of the serpent, then it is right to describe the father of that household as a murderer because he initiated the attitudes that lead to the killing of Jesus.

I see what you're saying, but I don't believe this proves that the serpent is the "murderer" referred to in John 8:44.

I certainly don't see that the murder of Christ by the Pharisees makes the serpent of Eden a murderer himself.

Because serpent thinking leads to murder?

[Me2007]

philip, on Feb 27 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

Genesis 3v15 says that the Serpent himself would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. The serpent did not literally murder Jesus himself, that deed was performed by the Jewish leaders (Acts 7:52). I am sugesting that if those who killed Jesus can be described as the seed of the serpent, then it is right to describe the father of that household as a murderer because he initiated the attitudes that lead to the killing of Jesus.

I agree with you.
The father in John 8:44 has to be the serpent who lied to Eve. Afterall, the first lie in the bible is created (fathered) by the serpent (a.k.a. the devil).

Acts 7:52 (KJV)
52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Cain did not lie first, so he can't be the father of the lie. He may be considered a "seed" of the serpent, just like the Jews who killed Jesus. Well...actually the Jews didn't literally kill Jesus, the Romans did. Anyway...they did "crush"/ "bruise" him as the prophecy in Gen 3:15 says.

Edit: Cain did not lie first

Edited by Me2007, 27 February 2008 - 06:07 PM.

[nsr]

Cain lied about not knowing where Abel was.

[Me2007]

nsr, on Feb 27 2008, 12:01 PM, said:

Cain lied about not knowing where Abel was.

True. I meant Cain did not lie first.

[R2D2]

philip, on Feb 28 2008, 12:33 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Feb 27 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

In what way was the serpent a murderer?

Genesis 3v15 says that the Serpent himself would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. The serpent did not literally murder Jesus himself, that deed was performed by the Jewish leaders (Acts 7:52). I am sugesting that if those who killed Jesus can be described as the seed of the serpent, then it is right to describe the father of that household as a murderer because he initiated the attitudes that lead to the killing of Jesus.

I too did wonder if murderer could be equated to

Quote

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It's a bit tenuous though but an interesting consideration.

[Amy Parkin]

The way I read it, it's speaking about the sinful part of our conscience - that little "devil" on our shoulder. Note that this is not a literal devil, but that most people use this analogy to represent their own dark side and their own lusts of the flesh. I'll write my paraphrase of the verse underneath the 'real' version. Bear in mind a father is one who disciplines and instructs, not only creates.

John 8:44 said:

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Amy's spin on things said:

It is your own lusts and desires that are telling you what you should do, and it is these things that you want to do. The capacity to sin has always lead to death (Romans 6:23), even from the very beginning when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree. Our sinful nature does not abide in truth, because there is no truth in sin [it is the exact opposite to God's will]. When you think thoughts contrary to the will of God, these thoughts are not God's but those of our own human nature: for human nature, impulses and desires are full of lies, and devise these lies, put them in place and seek to entice us away from God.

Maybe.

[R2D2]

Amy Parkin, on Feb 28 2008, 08:16 AM, said:

Amy's spin on things said:

It is your own lusts and desires that are telling you what you should do, and it is these things that you want to do. The capacity to sin has always lead to death (Romans 6:23), even from the very beginning when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree. Our sinful nature does not abide in truth, because there is no truth in sin [it is the exact opposite to God's will]. When you think thoughts contrary to the will of God, these thoughts are not God's but those of our own human nature: for human nature, impulses and desires are full of lies, and devise these lies, put them in place and seek to entice us away from God.

Maybe.

I agree Amy. Another verse comes to mind:

Quote

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We can see in the verse that self deception is key here.