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#1 Me2007

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 08:04 PM

Who were the two men in the account in Gen 19:10-11 who struck the bad men with blindness?

10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.


Were these angels or just messengers?

TwoPutt, this has nothing to do with Jesus' pre-existence as an angel...just curious to see how you all interpret these passages.
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#2 Russell

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:41 PM

Who were the two men in the account in Gen 19:10-11 who struck the bad men with blindness?

10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.


Were these angels or just messengers?

TwoPutt, this has nothing to do with Jesus' pre-existence as an angel...just curious to see how you all interpret these passages.


They are referred to as "angels"

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that thay were heavenly angels, and not just human messengers.

1. In Gen 18 there were 3 angels.

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

While one of them staying talking with Abraham, the other two continued to Sodom. The one remaining talking with Abraham actually bears God's name.

2. Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
It is difficult to know waht the writer to the Hebrews is referring if it is not this incident

3. The miracle of blinding the Sodomites, suggests heavenly angels

#3 Me2007

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 01:40 AM

Who were the two men in the account in Gen 19:10-11 who struck the bad men with blindness?

10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.


Were these angels or just messengers?

TwoPutt, this has nothing to do with Jesus' pre-existence as an angel...just curious to see how you all interpret these passages.


They are referred to as "angels"

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that thay were heavenly angels, and not just human messengers.

1. In Gen 18 there were 3 angels.

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

While one of them staying talking with Abraham, the other two continued to Sodom. The one remaining talking with Abraham actually bears God's name.

2. Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
It is difficult to know waht the writer to the Hebrews is referring if it is not this incident

3. The miracle of blinding the Sodomites, suggests heavenly angels


Thanks Weasley.

So, how did Lot and everyone else see these heavenly angels? Were they transfered from being spirit creatures in heaven to being human?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 01:42 AM

So, how did Lot and everyone else see these heavenly angels?


The usual way, with their eyes.

Were they transfered from being spirit creatures in heaven to being human?


This question contains so many assumptions I don't think it's necessary to answer. Your main assumption is that spirit beings can never be seen. There is no evidence for this anywhere in the Bible.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#5 Me2007

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 01:58 AM

So, how did Lot and everyone else see these heavenly angels?


The usual way, with their eyes.

Were they transfered from being spirit creatures in heaven to being human?


This question contains so many assumptions I don't think it's necessary to answer. Your main assumption is that spirit beings can never be seen. There is no evidence for this anywhere in the Bible.


Fortigurn,
I am not assuming anything.
I am simply asking a legitimate and reasonable question.
"were these angels transfered from being spirit creatures to being human?"

You are saying that there is no evidence for what?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#6 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:14 AM

Your question is assuming too much. It assumes that there is some necessity for them to be 'transferred from spirit creatures to being human' in order for them to be seen. Why would you even ask such a question? You might as well ask if they were changed from being thirty feet tall with horns and wings, to normal human size with no horns and wings. There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that spirit beings can never be seen, and there is certainly no evidence in the Bible that angels have to change 'from spirit creatures to being human'.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#7 Russell

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:33 AM

Angels can eat. For example the 3 angels. They have real substance. They are not phantoms. The Bible, so far as I am aware, does not go into a technical explanation about angels. Nevertheless we can deduce that much from scripture. I hope that helps.

#8 Ezzle

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:23 AM

Thanks Weasley.

So, how did Lot and everyone else see these heavenly angels? Were they transfered from being spirit creatures in heaven to being human?

Angels have from time to time appeared to and spoken with people, Me2007. Here are a few examples:
An angel appeared to the father of John the Baptist

And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.
(Luk 1:11-12)

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary the mother of Jesus

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
(Luk 1:26-30)

An angel released the apostles from prison

But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, "Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this Life."
(Act 5:19-20)

Later on, an angel released Peter from prison

And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly." And the chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me." And he went out and followed him. He did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came to the iron gate leading into the city. It opened for them of its own accord, and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel left him. When Peter came to himself, he said, "Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting." When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.
(Act 12:7-12)


It is obvious that angels are generally not able to be seen by humans. Our eyes are stopped from seeing them by means known to God. Like when Elisha was surrounded by the Syrian army and Elisha's servant was terrified. Elisha asked God to open his eyes and God did. The servant was then able to see horses and chariots of fire around Elisha. (see 2 Kings 6:8-17)

Angels can also be mistaken for people. If you read Judges 13, you will see how an angel was mistaken for a man.

#9 Me2007

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Weasley.

So, how did Lot and everyone else see these heavenly angels? Were they transfered from being spirit creatures in heaven to being human?

Angels have from time to time appeared to and spoken with people, Me2007. Here are a few examples:
An angel appeared to the father of John the Baptist

And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.
(Luk 1:11-12)

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary the mother of Jesus

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
(Luk 1:26-30)

An angel released the apostles from prison

But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, "Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this Life."
(Act 5:19-20)

Later on, an angel released Peter from prison

And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly." And the chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me." And he went out and followed him. He did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came to the iron gate leading into the city. It opened for them of its own accord, and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel left him. When Peter came to himself, he said, "Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting." When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.
(Act 12:7-12)


It is obvious that angels are generally not able to be seen by humans. Our eyes are stopped from seeing them by means known to God. Like when Elisha was surrounded by the Syrian army and Elisha's servant was terrified. Elisha asked God to open his eyes and God did. The servant was then able to see horses and chariots of fire around Elisha. (see 2 Kings 6:8-17)

Angels can also be mistaken for people. If you read Judges 13, you will see how an angel was mistaken for a man.


Weasley, Ezzle, Fortigurn,
Thanks for your relies.
Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit. However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#10 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 03:35 PM

Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit.


I don't think she said any such thing, and certainly there's nothing in the Bible which says this.

However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?


Because angels can choose to make themselves visible or invisible as they choose. What's so hard about this?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#11 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 03:40 PM

Another example of an angel appearing to someone is in Numbers 22.
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#12 Me2007

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:35 PM

Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit.


I don't think she said any such thing, and certainly there's nothing in the Bible which says this.

However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?


Because angels can choose to make themselves visible or invisible as they choose. What's so hard about this?

Fortigurn,
With all due respect, my question is for Ezzle, I believe she is capable of answering my question.

Thank you.

...angels can choose to make themselves visible or invisible as they choose.

I totally agree.
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:39 PM

Fortigurn,With all due respect, my question is for Ezzle, I believe she is capable of answering my question.


Before she answers your question, you need to get your question right. In this case you assumed she had said something she didn't actually say.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#14 Ezzle

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 12:24 AM

Weasley, Ezzle, Fortigurn,
Thanks for your relies.
Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit. However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?


Um ... well I don't know how God stops/allows people to see angels. I guess God does everything by his spirit. The Bible doesn't actually explain a real lot about angels, but it is plain that not only righteous people see angels. For example, Balaam in Numbers 22 that Matt has referred to, was not good. Also, the Roman Guards at Jesus' tomb who lied to the people for money about the resurrection of Jesus, saw an angel:

And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
(Mat 28:2-4)


It is compatible with Bible teaching that bad people can see angels. Why do you think they can't, Me2007?

#15 Me2007

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 02:11 AM

Weasley, Ezzle, Fortigurn,
Thanks for your relies.
Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit. However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?


Um ... well I don't know how God stops/allows people to see angels. I guess God does everything by his spirit. The Bible doesn't actually explain a real lot about angels, but it is plain that not only righteous people see angels. For example, Balaam in Numbers 22 that Matt has referred to, was not good. Also, the Roman Guards at Jesus' tomb who lied to the people for money about the resurrection of Jesus, saw an angel:

And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
(Mat 28:2-4)


It is compatible with Bible teaching that bad people can see angels. Why do you think they can't, Me2007?


True, this is compatible to bible teaching. The bible does show that both "good" and "bad' people see angels.

I actually think that these angels (who are visible to human eyes) take the form of humans and that's how humans (good or bad) can see them.

In the case of these two men (angels), the "bad" mob had to see them as "humans" for them to want to have relations with them. But, that's just my humble

opinion based on what I've studied.

Now, these angels are spirit creatures, so when they take human forms, they have powers that an ordinary human would not have, therefore, they can

perform miracles and basically work with the power of God to do his will. Psalm 103:20-21

We can see this in most of the angelic accounts throughout the bible.

From what i understand, Christadelphians don't believe angels can take a human form, is that correct or no?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#16 Matt Smith

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 04:40 AM

Weasley, Ezzle, Fortigurn,
Thanks for your relies.
Ezzle, based on your post I understand the fact that good people can see angels by means of God's holy spirit. However, in the case of these two men in the account in Gen 19, bad men also saw them. Even to the point of doing this...
(NASB)
4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

How can this be?


Um ... well I don't know how God stops/allows people to see angels. I guess God does everything by his spirit. The Bible doesn't actually explain a real lot about angels, but it is plain that not only righteous people see angels. For example, Balaam in Numbers 22 that Matt has referred to, was not good. Also, the Roman Guards at Jesus' tomb who lied to the people for money about the resurrection of Jesus, saw an angel:

And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.
(Mat 28:2-4)


It is compatible with Bible teaching that bad people can see angels. Why do you think they can't, Me2007?


True, this is compatible to bible teaching. The bible does show that both "good" and "bad' people see angels.

I actually think that these angels (who are visible to human eyes) take the form of humans and that's how humans (good or bad) can see them.

In the case of these two men (angels), the "bad" mob had to see them as "humans" for them to want to have relations with them. But, that's just my humble

opinion based on what I've studied.

Now, these angels are spirit creatures, so when they take human forms, they have powers that an ordinary human would not have, therefore, they can

perform miracles and basically work with the power of God to do his will. Psalm 103:20-21

We can see this in most of the angelic accounts throughout the bible.

From what i understand, Christadelphians don't believe angels can take a human form, is that correct or no?


I believe that angels are in human form, which is why they are mistaken for humans.....
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#17 Ezzle

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 04:46 AM

True, this is compatible to bible teaching. The bible does show that both "good" and "bad' people see angels.

I actually think that these angels (who are visible to human eyes) take the form of humans and that's how humans (good or bad) can see them.

In the case of these two men (angels), the "bad" mob had to see them as "humans" for them to want to have relations with them. But, that's just my humble

opinion based on what I've studied.

Now, these angels are spirit creatures, so when they take human forms, they have powers that an ordinary human would not have, therefore, they can

perform miracles and basically work with the power of God to do his will. Psalm 103:20-21

We can see this in most of the angelic accounts throughout the bible.

From what i understand, Christadelphians don't believe angels can take a human form, is that correct or no?


Christadelphians believe that humans have a very similar appearance to angels, but angels are immortal and we are mortal. We don't believe angels change their form, just that occasionally they can be seen by humans, but mostly they are hidden from our view.

I guess it's a bit like the difference between Jesus before and after he was made immortal. Before his resurrection, he was like us - a dying person subject to disease, injury, temptation etc. After God raised him and made him immortal, he was no longer subject to these things. But he still had a body etc. as the following verses from Luke demonstrate:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


Although Jesus and the angels have a body that looks like our bodies, they can do things we can't - or at least we can't of our own volition. For example, after Jesus resurrection, the disciples were gathered together and had the door locked as they were afraid of the Jewish authorities. Suddenly Jesus appeared amongst them.

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
(Joh 20:19)



#18 Me2007

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 05:04 PM

Christadelphians believe that humans have a very similar appearance to angels, but angels are immortal and we are mortal. We don't believe angels change their form, just that occasionally they can be seen by humans, but mostly they are hidden from our view.

I guess it's a bit like the difference between Jesus before and after he was made immortal. Before his resurrection, he was like us - a dying person subject to disease, injury, temptation etc. After God raised him and made him immortal, he was no longer subject to these things. But he still had a body etc. as the following verses from Luke demonstrate:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


Although Jesus and the angels have a body that looks like our bodies, they can do things we can't - or at least we can't of our own volition. For example, after Jesus resurrection, the disciples were gathered together and had the door locked as they were afraid of the Jewish authorities. Suddenly Jesus appeared amongst them.

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
(Joh 20:19)


I see said the blind man.

Thank you for the explanation Ezzle.

Ge 19:16 (NASB)says...
16But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city.

How can these angels do this without being flesh and bones? I guess it's possible for angels to have the sense of "touch" with God's holy spirit. What do you think?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#19 Matt Smith

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 05:17 PM

Christadelphians believe that humans have a very similar appearance to angels, but angels are immortal and we are mortal. We don't believe angels change their form, just that occasionally they can be seen by humans, but mostly they are hidden from our view.

I guess it's a bit like the difference between Jesus before and after he was made immortal. Before his resurrection, he was like us - a dying person subject to disease, injury, temptation etc. After God raised him and made him immortal, he was no longer subject to these things. But he still had a body etc. as the following verses from Luke demonstrate:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


Although Jesus and the angels have a body that looks like our bodies, they can do things we can't - or at least we can't of our own volition. For example, after Jesus resurrection, the disciples were gathered together and had the door locked as they were afraid of the Jewish authorities. Suddenly Jesus appeared amongst them.

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
(Joh 20:19)


I see said the blind man.

Thank you for the explanation Ezzle.

Ge 19:16 (NASB)says...
16But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city.

How can these angels do this without being flesh and bones? I guess it's possible for angels to have the sense of "touch" with God's holy spirit. What do you think?


Where in the Bible does it say that angels do not have flesh or bone?
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#20 Me2007

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 06:23 PM

Matt Smith,

We're talking about the angels in the account in Gen 19, which we have agreed that they are "heavenly angels" and not just "human messengers" as Weasley said in post #2.
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#21 Gileade

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 06:33 PM

Jw's and the ones who believe the same as them have problems with the litteral flesh, because of this verse:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

And that also makes them have difficulties with the angels appearing looking as men and eating etc. So they conclude they have encarnated or something. Took a body.

The problem is all with the word "flesh".

It is interesting that Jesus disapeared and appeard as he wanted after resurection but he still had the marks of the crucifiction and they say he changed body. If you ask them about Jesus' human body , they will answer they don't know, it is somewhere preserved, Jesus abandoned the body to resume his position as a spiritual creature(=bodiless).

Edited by Gileade, 15 February 2008 - 07:10 PM.

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#22 Matt Smith

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 06:50 PM

Matt Smith,

We're talking about the angels in the account in Gen 19, which we have agreed that they are "heavenly angels" and not just "human messengers" as Weasley said in post #2.


So? That doesn't answer the question....
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#23 Me2007

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 07:02 PM

Matt Smith,

We're talking about the angels in the account in Gen 19, which we have agreed that they are "heavenly angels" and not just "human messengers" as Weasley said in post #2.


So? That doesn't answer the question....


"heavenly angels" are spirits.

quote from Ezzle's post:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#24 Fortigurn

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 07:05 PM

Now, these angels are spirit creatures, so when they take human forms, they have powers that an ordinary human would not have, therefore, they can


They are spirit creatures in human form (shape).

From what i understand, Christadelphians don't believe angels can take a human form, is that correct or no?


This is bizarre. On the contrary, we believe angels are in human form. That's their natural form. They don't have to 'take it', that's the form they're always in. Your problem is that you think spirit beings must necessarily be without physical substance, like ghosts or some kind of vapour. This results in you having to suggest that they 'materialize' and 'de-materialze' when appearing to humans. Scripture says none of this. According to Scripture, a spirit being still has a physical, corporeal substance. Gileade explained it well.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#25 Fortigurn

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 07:06 PM

Matt Smith,

We're talking about the angels in the account in Gen 19, which we have agreed that they are "heavenly angels" and not just "human messengers" as Weasley said in post #2.


So? That doesn't answer the question....


"heavenly angels" are spirits.

quote from Ezzle's post:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


Christ is talking about ghosts here, not spirit beings. The disciples thought he was a ghost or apparition, they didn't think he was really there. He proved he was really there by saying 'I have a physical substance, touch and feel me'. That's also why he ate in front of them.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#26 Me2007

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 03:02 AM

This is bizarre. On the contrary, we believe angels are in human form. That's their natural form. They don't have to 'take it', that's the form they're always in. Your problem is that you think spirit beings must necessarily be without physical substance, like ghosts or some kind of vapour. This results in you having to suggest that they 'materialize' and 'de-materialze' when appearing to humans. Scripture says none of this. According to Scripture, a spirit being still has a physical, corporeal substance. Gileade explained it well.


Fortigurn, Gileade,

Ok. Since you say the problem lies with the word "flesh", What does the word "flesh" mean in 1 Cor 15:50?

Is there not a difference between flesh and spirit?

The bible is clear that there is a difference...

Galatians 5:19-23 (NASB)
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law


What exactly do you mean when you say "physical substance" Fortigurn?
“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." - Matthew 5:3

#27 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 03:56 AM

Ok. Since you say the problem lies with the word "flesh",


No, the problem lies with your idea that the word 'flesh and blood' here simply means actual flesh and blood. Christ wasn't saying that. He wasn't saying 'Look, I materialized a pretend body of flesh and blood, to fool you into thinking I'm a human'. He was saying 'Look, I'm really here, I'm not an immaterial ghost or a hallucination, I'm physically right here, you can touch me to prove it'.

What does the word "flesh" mean in 1 Cor 15:50?


Mortal perishable bodies. Look at what it says, 'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable'. In this couplet 'flesh and blood' equates to 'perishable', and 'Kingdom of God' equates to 'imperishable'. The contrast is between that which is perishable, and that which is imperishable, not a contrast between literal flesh and blood and something else.

Is there not a difference between flesh and spirit?


There most certainly is. The flesh is mortal and corruptible, spirit is not.

The bible is clear that there is a difference...


Of course. But the Bible nowhere says that the difference is 'physical' versus 'immaterial', as you think.

Galatians 5:19-23 (NASB)


Here the word 'flesh' isn't referring to literal flesh and blood, but to carnal desires.

What exactly do you mean when you say "physical substance" Fortigurn?


Exactly what it means. Which words are you being confused by?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#28 Ezzle

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 04:16 AM

Matt Smith,

We're talking about the angels in the account in Gen 19, which we have agreed that they are "heavenly angels" and not just "human messengers" as Weasley said in post #2.


So? That doesn't answer the question....


"heavenly angels" are spirits.

quote from Ezzle's post:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
(Luk 24:36-40)


Christ is talking about ghosts here, not spirit beings. The disciples thought he was a ghost or apparition, they didn't think he was really there. He proved he was really there by saying 'I have a physical substance, touch and feel me'. That's also why he ate in front of them.

I agree with Fortigurn, that Jesus is talking about "a spirit" being a ghost. Not that there is any such thing as a spirit or ghost, but the disciples apparently thought there was. I think most of us would be frightened by supernatural things. ie People who we knew had been killed suddenly appearing in our midst, or glowing angels appearing. It would have been easy for them to jump to wrong conclusions. So Jesus explained the situation.

As the risen Christ has flesh and bones, it would seem that angels would be similarly made. The Bible doesn't speak of the substance of angels - at least I can't immediately think of anywhere where it does - someone else may have some ideas about this. But a spiritual body is not just a mirage, as Jesus graphically demonstrated after his resurrection. Why wouldn't the angels have a body similar to the immortal body Jesus has? Jesus has a spiritual body. The angels have a spiritual body.

#29 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 04:22 AM

And a spirit body is a physical body, not an immaterial body. It's not an illusion, hallucination, vapour, or smoke. It's a physical body. That means it can be touched, handled, felt. It's as solid as you and I. It's just not literal flesh and blood.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#30 Gileade

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 11:32 AM

A bit offtopic be warned:

It is interesting that using Galatians we can also prove that angels cannot sin as they are spirit cratures for the works of the flesh (humans) are:

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God...

...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:19-23(KJV)

Angels are immortal/energized by the Spirit they can't produce works of the flesh.
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