69 replies to this topic

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 22 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best
I hope this is not your format for life.
Simple does not =best

While this is off topic, why is simple not best?

[Matt Smith]

Response 9

nightmare, on Jan 22 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

Matt Smith said:

My, look at that.... The KJV is right. Adam and Eve had sex, she got pregnant from that act and she gave birth to Cain.

------The Bible never says, not even one time that Cain is Adams son.

Wrong. I just showed you that the Bible does teach that Cain is the son of Adam

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All you have to do is read the generatons of Adam --No Cain listed

Genesis 4 lists him and his decendants. But of course, you are referring to Genesis 5. You do know that there are no chapter divisions in the original text?

A little Bible geneology lesson for you. When God records a geneology for us in Scripture, he does it for a specific purpose. The geneology of Seth leads to Noah, a man righteous in his generation (the sons of God). The geneology of Cain leads us to Lamech, the first recorded polygamist, who did evil in the sight of the LORD (sons of men).

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You are assuming since Adam knew is wife and she bore Cain that means Cain is the son of Adam
not true.

It is true and it is exactly how the Hebrew reads. The birth of Cain is the direct result of Adam having sex with Eve.

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Adam knew is wife and she bore another mans baby or rather another angels baby.

This is no support for this in the Bible at all.

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Why do you think Eve said I have gotten a man from the Lord?

Because she was assuming that Cain was the fulfilment of God's prophecy in Genesis 3:15.

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something was'nt quit normal about Cain.

And it says that where in Genesis?

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But forget all that Cain is not in the generations of Adam because he is not Adams son as a matter of fact he has is own generation in chapther 4.
So lets here your explanation of why Cain is not listed in Chapter 5 generations of Adam.

See above

[Matt Smith]

Response 10

nightmare, on Jan 22 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

Genesis 3:12 "And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

Genesis 3:13 "And the Lord God said unto the woman, "What is this that thou hast done?" And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
BEGUILE=5377 nasha' naw-shaw' a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:--beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.
GREEK-1818. exapatao ex-ap-at-ah'-o from 1537 and 538; to seduce wholly:--beguile, deceive.
------I WILL EXPLAIN WHY I USED THE GREEK HERE LATER

Okay.

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Genesis 3:14 "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

------This is God speaking to Satan. God is cursing Satan above all living creatures. This is a figure of speech, meaning you are the lowest thing of all creation. Now God continues to speak to the serpent [Satan].

No. Genesis 3:14 is God speaking to the serpent. You are assuming that the serpent is this "supernatural fallen angel, called satan", who you have yet to prove exists, and is never mentioned at all in Genesis.

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Genesis 3:15 "And I [God] will put enmity between thee [Satan] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed [the Kenites] and her Seed [Jesus Christ]; It [Christ] shall bruise thy [Satan's] head, and thou [Satan] shalt bruise His [Christ's] heel."

------- Now how can you honestly think were talking about a literal serpent.

Easy. That's what the text says.

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There is no enmity between Christ and actual snakes

And how is Moses (or Eve) to know that her seed is Jesus? Where is this mentioned in Genesis.

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there is no enmity between mankind and snakes. A snake is like a whole bunch of other animals. If you get around his territory or make them angry or scare them they might bite you. Heck it seems there more enmity between man and pitbulls then snakes.

Fear of snakes is listed as the "number one fear" in the world by several sources, including National Geographic.

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------Eve's seed is <SNIP> and in true Christianity.

Stick to how Moses (or anyone that only has Genesis) would view and read the chapters.

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Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Genesis 3:17 "And unto Adam He said, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it:' cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of of thy life;"

--------God reminded Adam that he partook of Satan also.

An assumption you have yet to prove. I've highlighted some important words for you below.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

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-------Were to work by the sweat of our brow to feed our family.

Yes we do

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Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

------This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in, is the dust of the earth that it is made of.

Where does it say that "our soul" is housed in anything?

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Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

------Is this going against the idea of God creating all races on the sixth day of creation? Not at all. Satan knew it was through the womb of this woman Eve, and her daughters to come, that the Messiah would drive his [the devil's] head to the pit, and then to ashes; and destroy him. It was woman that Satan wanted to destroy. Therefore through Eve and her daughters down to Mary that would come "Christ."

Where are these plans recorded?
How do we know what this satan thought?
Where do we have it recorded that satan had sex with Eve?

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------The word "living" here is looking forward to the Redeemer, Jesus Christ.<SNIP>

Stick to how Moses (or anyone that only has Genesis) would view and read the chapters.

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Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

-------God has given to cover them and protect them in the shame of their sin. Adam and Eve used fig leaves to hide their shame, however, here it is God that makes the sacrifice to cover the sin.

If you are saying that God killed an animal to make coverings for their naked bodies, then yes I agree.

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Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:-"

---------This is the documentation that the "Tree of Life" is Jesus Christ. The price that had to be paid first was Jesus Christ's death on the cross, then after the shedding of His blood, all mankind can take freely of Him and have eternal life. Only by the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His living as a man, then His sacrifice on the cross could eternal life be offered to man.

Stick to how Moses (or anyone that only has Genesis) would view and read the chapters.

As a side (off topic) question, are you saying Jesus was alive in the garden?

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Genesis 3:23 "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

------------God's purpose for Adam, from the beginning was for Adam to till the ground [Genesis 2:5]. Because of Adam and Eves sin, God took them out of the paradise of Eden, and brought them to a place where he could not till the ground.

No. He brought them to a place where tilling the ground was significantly harder (Genesis 3:17-19)

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Genesis 3:24 "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."CHRIST

You're assuming things again.

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----------The "way" is the path that the Christ, the "Tree of Life", would come by. That path was through the womb of Eve, and her daughters down to Mary. It is the Cherubim's that would ultimately protect that way, with the "flaming sword" which is God's word, from the onslought of fallen angels, who came to earth to breed with woman, and destroy all woman's seed. This is what caused the flood of Noah's time, as God said in Genesis 6:7.

And how do you get that just by reading Genesis?


So, why did you use Greek above? You do realise that Genesis was written in Hebrew?

[nightmare]

No. Genesis 3:14 is God speaking to the serpent. You are assuming that the serpent is this "supernatural fallen angel, called satan", who you have yet to prove exists, and is never mentioned at all in Genesis.

-----God divided the "light" from the "darkness" we no this is not the sun moon or anything like that because they will be created later. So what is this "light" and "darkness"? Easy its the holy spirit which is to say Christ and Satan or we can call them by the roles they are playing in the Garden "The tree of life" and "The tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Easy. That's what the text says

The text says "Serpent" it does not say literal serpent. If I call you a Serpent it does not mean you are actually a snake, but your behavior might resemble those of a serpent

Fear of snakes is listed as the "number one fear" in the world by several sources, including National Geographic

-----We asked 200 Jewish professionals, students, parents and singles across the United States, "What are your greatest fears of nature?" The results are interesting. The number one fear is large animals (the type of animal depending on the geographic location of the respondent). The number two fear is snakes.
----I looked on the net could not find any pure documentation that says Snakes are humans number one fear. But fear is not the word; the word is "enmity"
----4895 mastemah mas-tay-maw' from the same as 7850; enmity:--hatred
----Now I dont know about you but I dont hate snakes and Ive touched snakes before and they dont hate me.
There like any other wild animal you cant really trust them, but you cant trust lions and tigers either but its no hate there its animals being animals.

Where does it say that "our soul" is housed in anything? It says our bodys will return to dust, but we are more than mere flesh and im positive Moses new this. Some things just require common sense

--1--Where are these plans recorded?
--2--How do we know what this satan thought?
--3--Where do we have it recorded that satan had sex with Eve?

--1--The plans are recorded in the actions of Satan running the same game over. First he put a seed in Eve, then had those angels who followed him put there seeds in the daughters of Eve. Not the hardest game plan to follow.
--2--The men and women created on day six were not told that they could not partake of The tree of evil why?
God knew Satan would not attack them; but he would attack the line of Christ. God knew Satan was thinking this: yes Satan has thoughts and can think.
--3--Have a hebrew scholar study the word BEGUILE with you, its seduction a wholly seduction.

As a side (off topic) question, are you saying Jesus was alive in the garden?Yes but not restricted to the Garden

Genesis 3:24 "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."CHRIST

You're assuming things again. nu uh 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Now I ask you how do you live forever? remember that "light" that was divided from the "darkness" you must partake of it.

----------The "way" is the path that the Christ, the "Tree of Life", would come by. That path was through the womb of Eve, and her daughters down to Mary. It is the Cherubim's that would ultimately protect that way, with the "flaming sword" which is God's word, from the onslought of fallen angels, who came to earth to breed with woman, and destroy all woman's seed. This is what caused the flood of Noah's time, as God said in Genesis 6:7.

And how do you get that just by reading Genesis?---Because genesis says everything here except that Christ is the tree of Life and you can easily connect the dots to understand there is no magical tree that would save Moses or anybody else. We get one guess to figure out who we can thank for our salvation, better make it a good one.

So, why did you use Greek above? You do realise that Genesis was written in Hebrew?
Sometimes when you read the bible you come across words that are crucial to understand. This word "beguiled" is one of them.
This word is also used later in the bible (but Moses wouldnt know that) so if I come across a word that is crucial to understand I look for it through out the whole bible and get a definition from every language, still concentrating most on its original text. Beguiled=seduced, and the greek comfirms it.

Also sometimes I forget to shave my response to how Moses would have thought about it.
but im getting the hang of it. MY BAD

ALSO TO OTHER MEMBERS PLEASE DONT ASSUME THAT IM ASIAN OR THAT I AM FEMALE, I COULD BE BUT SINCE GENDER AND RACE IS NOT IMPORTANT I WONT REVEAL IT TO MANY.

[nightmare]

Hey Matt this might help you see the angle im using, just speaking.

-There was a time where Lucifer was a "angel" of light. The most beautiful the sharpest, just a step above the rest. He job was to protect the mercy seat and I believe he was basically the overser of earth. But instead of wanting to protect the mercy seat he wanted to sit in it.
Lucifer wanted to be Christ. This caused Lucifer to rebel against God and to fall.
Now Lucifer is not Lucifer anymore then he is known as "The tree of knowledge"
But as soon as Eve comes; Lucifer the Tree of knowledge plays a different role "The Serpent"
3 roles already, this will continue all the way until the "Dragon" of Revelations.

And I have always wondered what you believe concerning "The end times" do you believe this is the last generation? Do you think Christ will be back any time soon?(next ten years) of do you believe he has already came?

[Matt Smith]

Response 11 - part 1

nightmare said:

Matt Smith said:

No. Genesis 3:14 is God speaking to the serpent. You are assuming that the serpent is this "supernatural fallen angel, called satan", who you have yet to prove exists, and is never mentioned at all in Genesis.

-----God divided the "light" from the "darkness" we no this is not the sun moon or anything like that because they will be created later.

No. It is not the sun or moon.

In the Bible, we examples of light without the sun, originating from a supernatural source. Most of these are associated with the glory of God, which in the Bible is usually manifested as light, although sometimes as fire. ‘God is light’ (1 John 1:5), 'God is a consuming fire’ (Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 12:29).

Hmmm.... now I've broken my own rules. Going to have to work on that.

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So what is this "light" and "darkness"? Easy its the holy spirit which is to say Christ and Satan or we can call them by the roles they are playing in the Garden "The tree of life" and "The tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Genesis speaks of "the spirit of God", not the holy spirit.

What is the spirit of God? God's spirit is His power. He used His spirit to create life (Psalm 104:30), and it is His spirit that maintains life (Job 34:14-15).

What is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power that is set apart (the meaning of "holy") and has been granted to certain people at certain times (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 35:30-31; Numbers 11; Deuteronomy 34:9)

Grrr... did it again.

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Matt Smith said:

Easy. That's what the text says

The text says "Serpent" it does not say literal serpent.

Nor does it say symbolic serpent or allegorical serpent or possessed serpent.

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If I call you a Serpent it does not mean you are actually a snake, but your behavior might resemble those of a serpent

You see, that's the issue nightmare. The serpent isn't being called a serpent (i.e. "you are a serpent"), it is being defined as a serpent (i.e. "this is a serpent").

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Fear of snakes is listed as the "number one fear" in the world by several sources, including National Geographic

-----We asked 200 Jewish professionals, students, parents and singles across the United States, "What are your greatest fears of nature?" The results are interesting. The number one fear is large animals (the type of animal depending on the geographic location of the respondent). The number two fear is snakes.

200 people are representative of 6 billion? Hmmmm...

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----I looked on the net could not find any pure documentation that says Snakes are humans number one fear. But fear is not the word; the word is "enmity"

You get what you pay for on the 'net.

Yes, the word is enmity.

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----4895 mastemah mas-tay-maw' from the same as 7850; enmity:--hatred

The word translated "enmity" in Genesis 3 is the word eybah (Strong's # 342). "From H340; hostility". 340 is ayab, "A primitive root; to hate (as one of an opposite tribe or party); hence to be hostile".

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----Now I dont know about you but I dont hate snakes and Ive touched snakes before and they dont hate me.
There like any other wild animal you cant really trust them, but you cant trust lions and tigers either but its no hate there its animals being animals.

Come and play with the snakes in my neck of the desert.

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Where does it say that "our soul" is housed in anything?

It says our bodys will return to dust, but we are more than mere flesh and im positive Moses new this. Some things just require common sense

We are merely flesh. And I am sure that based on Genesis 2:7 (especially considering how the word is used in Genesis 1), Moses would understand that we are souls, not that we have souls. For a further exposition, see this.

Continued in part 2

[Matt Smith]

Response 11 - part 2

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--1--Where are these plans recorded?
--2--How do we know what this satan thought?
--3--Where do we have it recorded that satan had sex with Eve?

--1--The plans are recorded in the actions of Satan running the same game over.

What game? He/it has never been mentioned in the Bible, or by God, or by any of the angels...

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First he put a seed in Eve

Not according to Genesis 4:1.

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then had those angels who followed him put there seeds in the daughters of Eve.

No mention of angels having sex (at all) in the Bible.

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Not the hardest game plan to follow.

Not when it's coming from your own imagination it isn't.

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--2--The men and women created on day six were not told that they could not partake of The tree of evil why?

It's called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Why could they not partake of it? Because God told them not to.

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God knew Satan would not attack them

What satan? There's no mention of satan here.

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but he would attack the line of Christ. God knew Satan was thinking this: yes Satan has thoughts and can think.

No indication of this in scripture.

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--3--Have a hebrew scholar study the word BEGUILE with you, its seduction a wholly seduction.

Beguile - nasha - A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce.

Occurs 13 times in the Old Testament, and never once in reference to anything sexual, like the way you are portraying it.

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As a side (off topic) question, are you saying Jesus was alive in the garden?

Yes but not restricted to the Garden

Jesus began his existence with his conception in Mary. Carefully review this section of the forum.

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Genesis 3:24 "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

CHRIST

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You're assuming things again.

nu uh 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Now I ask you how do you live forever? remember that "light" that was divided from the "darkness" you must partake of it.

Huh?

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----------The "way" is the path that the Christ, the "Tree of Life", would come by. That path was through the womb of Eve, and her daughters down to Mary. It is the Cherubim's that would ultimately protect that way, with the "flaming sword" which is God's word, from the onslought of fallen angels, who came to earth to breed with woman, and destroy all woman's seed. This is what caused the flood of Noah's time, as God said in Genesis 6:7.

Have you actually read Genesis 6?

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Remember our conversation about conjunctions? The flood was the result of man's wickedness.

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And how do you get that just by reading Genesis?

---Because genesis says everything here except that Christ is the tree of Life

And except that there is a satan, and except that there satan is the snake, and also a tree, and except Eve (and Adam!!!!) had sex with satan, and except the evil followers of satan had sex with women....

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and you can easily connect the dots to understand there is no magical tree that would save Moses or anybody else.

There are no dots.

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We get one guess to figure out who we can thank for our salvation, better make it a good one.

Yes, and we better understand who it is that actually stands in our way....

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So, why did you use Greek above? You do realise that Genesis was written in Hebrew?

Sometimes when you read the bible you come across words that are crucial to understand. This word "beguiled" is one of them.

Discussed above...

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This word is also used later in the bible (but Moses wouldnt know that) so if I come across a word that is crucial to understand I look for it through out the whole bible and get a definition from every language, still concentrating most on its original text. Beguiled=seduced, and the greek comfirms it.

Yes it means seduced, but never in a sexual manner (like how it is used now in the 21st C).

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Also sometimes I forget to shave my response to how Moses would have thought about it.
but im getting the hang of it. MY BAD

How Moses would have understood it is key.

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 22 2008, 08:42 PM, said:

Hey Matt this might help you see the angle im using, just speaking.
-There was a time where Lucifer was a "angel" of light. The most beautiful the sharpest, just a step above the rest. He job was to protect the mercy seat and I believe he was basically the overser of earth. But instead of wanting to protect the mercy seat he wanted to sit in it.
Lucifer wanted to be Christ. This caused Lucifer to rebel against God and to fall.
Now Lucifer is not Lucifer anymore then he is known as "The tree of knowledge"
But as soon as Eve comes; Lucifer the Tree of knowledge plays a different role "The Serpent"
3 roles already, this will continue all the way until the "Dragon" of Revelations.

Yes, I am aware of how you are approaching it.

Now I challenge you to read Genesis with none of the above clouding your mind.

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And I have always wondered what you believe concerning "The end times" do you believe this is the last generation? Do you think Christ will be back any time soon?(next ten years) of do you believe he has already came?

We can discuss this in General Theology if you wish.

[nightmare]

This "seed" spoken of in (Genesis 3:150 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

What does it mean? Lets use common sense here!

The "seed" in the Hebrew is called "zirmah", and in the Greek it is "sperma". We in the English call it "sperm", and in Strongs Hebrew Dictionary # 2233; "Posterity, carnally, child, fruitful".
Lets look at your Logic, your telling me that the "seed" being reffered to is of a snake.
Some kind of talking serpent, and now there is some kind of enmity between humans and snakes?
There is no way that you are going to be able to convince people that their biggest problem with the animal kingdom is snakes. Also the seeds of the original snake would be sharper than other animals.
Basically to this day snakes would be smarter then every other animal.
Thats not true most snakes can even beat a Mongoose.

What about Eves seed? Who are we talking about when we say Eves seed?
CHRIST This is the "seed" that the bible is looking forward too.
This would be the seed that cruised the Serpents head.
Do you dare to tell me that I should fear snakes more than any other animal.
Please show me where there is "Enmity"
----4895 mastemah mas-tay-maw' from the same as 7850; enmity:--hatred----
between mankind.
And after you fail to do so I will show you where the real "enmity" lies
BETWEEN THE KENITE AND THE TRUE JEWS

Also I remember you once saying something about,

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

18And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

22And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

23And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

24If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Yes Cain had all these decendents before Seth was born. These Kenites (son of Cain) obviously produced at a faster rate then the Adamics.

But what do you exspect; Cain was have angel.

Also If you know satan like I know him he is Always copying God

Even during this time he didnt only produce faster, they named there kids the same thing God was going to name His exscept for the "a" and "el" this is why names are so important.

[Matt Smith]

Response 12

nightmare said:

This "seed" spoken of in (Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
What does it mean? Lets use common sense here!

Hebrew - zera - (Strong's) From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity

Yes let's use common sense. A seed is a descendant. And your point is?

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The "seed" in the Hebrew is called "zirmah", and in the Greek it is "sperma". We in the English call it "sperm", and in Strongs Hebrew Dictionary # 2233; "Posterity, carnally, child, fruitful".

Are you telling me Eve had sperm?

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Lets look at your Logic, your telling me that the "seed" being reffered to is of a snake.

Yes. But a seed does not have to be actually related. More on that later.

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Some kind of talking serpent, and now there is some kind of enmity between humans and snakes?

See above.

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There is no way that you are going to be able to convince people that their biggest problem with the animal kingdom is snakes.

Nope, and I wouldn't try.

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Also the seeds of the original snake would be sharper than other animals.
Basically to this day snakes would be smarter then every other animal.
Thats not true most snakes can even beat a Mongoose.

Smarter does not mean stronger. And smartness is not necessarily inherent. Otherwise my son would be as dull as I am.

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What about Eves seed? Who are we talking about when we say Eves seed?
CHRIST

I would agree that the seed of Eve is Christ. But you cannot believe this. You believe that Jesus was already in existence, therefore he cannot be her seed.

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This is the "seed" that the bible is looking forward too.

Agreed.

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This would be the seed that cruised the Serpents head.

Again, agreed.

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Do you dare to tell me that I should fear snakes more than any other animal.

Nope.

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Please show me where there is "Enmity"
----4895 mastemah mas-tay-maw' from the same as 7850; enmity:--hatred----
between mankind.

Still quoting the wrong word...

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And after you fail to do so I will show you where the real "enmity" lies

The enmity is between our sinful tendencies and ourselves. That is our true enemy.

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BETWEEN THE KENITE AND THE TRUE JEWS

Hmmm... A battle between an extinct Canaanite nation and the Jews. Facinating...

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Also I remember you once saying something about,

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

18And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

22And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

23And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

24If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Yes Cain had all these decendents before Seth was born.

Cool. Eight generations in less than 130 years. Vigerous bunch.

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These Kenites (son of Cain) obviously produced at a faster rate then the Adamics.

There we go again with the two race thing. I have shown in the last 11 responses that none of what you imagine has ever occurred, and is not even supported by scripture.

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But what do you exspect; Cain was have angel.

See above. No satan sex, not satan child, just the natural process of "the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain".

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Also If you know satan like I know him he is Always copying God

Must be your best friend....

Seriously, you have never proved that there is even this devil/satan. There is no mention of a satan in Genesis, or Exodus, or Leviticus, or Numbers, or Deuteronomy, or Joshua, or Judges, or Ruth, or.... Well you get the idea. This satan you speak of is a figment of your preconceived imagination and does not in reality exist.

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Even during this time he didnt only produce faster, they named there kids the same thing God was going to name His exscept for the "a" and "el" this is why names are so important.

Makes for a nice fairy tale.

[nightmare]

Are you telling me Eve had sperm?------ No satan did or something so close to it he made Cain
Yes. But a seed does not have to be actually related. More on that later------Is christ related to Eve? Of course so we must assume that the seed of the Serpent is the serpents relative also

I would agree that the seed of Eve is Christ. But you cannot believe this. You believe that Jesus was already in existence, therefore he cannot be her seed.------Why cant I Christ was around but had not come to the earth in flesh
Christ would be the seed that would come into the flesh defeat death (another name for satan) and save us all.
Have you forgotten what the light is in Genesis 1:3 is?

The enmity is between our sinful tendencies and ourselves. That is our true enemy.
wow Matt dont think I ever heard you be so wrong The bible does not say this

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Its not between our sinful tendencies and ourselves its between what God said The seed of Eve and the seed of the Serpent no where does it say mans sinful tendecies.

Hmmm... A battle between an extinct Canaanite nation and the Jews. Facinating...
First I didnt say Canaanite I said Kenite two very differnet nations.
And you think the Kenites were destoyed? when? are you saying the flood destroyed them? allow me to prove you wrong
Genesis 15:19
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

1 Samuel 15:6
And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among

1 Chronicles 2:55
And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Wait a second we are in chronicles I thought the Kenites were whiped out in genesis?

Cool. Eight generations in less than 130 years. Vigerous bunch. Yes indeed but its a good change this record has been broke

There we go again with the two race thing. I have shown in the last 11 responses that none of what you imagine has ever occurred, and is not even supported by scripture. Its important to follow the bloobline of Adam and the bloodline of Cain.
Why do you think the names are so similiar its not a conisedence please read the names and tell me why you believe they are so similiar.

See above. No satan sex, not satan child, just the natural process of "the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain". SURE and God just forgot to have Cains name put in the generations of Adam

Must be your best friend....

Seriously, you have never proved that there is even this devil/satan. There is no mention of a satan in Genesis, or Exodus, or Leviticus, or Numbers, or Deuteronomy, or Joshua, or Judges, or Ruth, or.... Well you get the idea. This satan you speak of is a figment of your preconceived imagination and does not in reality exist. Yes there is but he is not playing the adversarie role in Genesis hes playing the Serpent role. Satan and the Devil will gome latter as will the dragon and the 2 beast. Again you have not answered what is the light and the darkness refering to in Genesis 1:3? I know youre trapped cause you cant say the sun.

Makes for a nice fairy tale. This from the guy who believes in the magical tree and the snake that speaks hebrew

[Matt Smith]

Response 13 - part 1

nightmare, on Jan 28 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

Matt Smith said:

Are you telling me Eve had sperm?

------ No satan did or something so close to it he made Cain

Except for the fact that Genesis 4:1 says that Adam fathered Cain....

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Yes. But a seed does not have to be actually related. More on that later

------Is christ related to Eve?

Yes. But according to you Jesus was already alive, so your answer has to be no.

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Of course so we must assume that the seed of the Serpent is the serpents relative also

Now you're contradicting yourself. Either Jesus is a descendant of Eve, or he is not. You say Jesus was there in the garden literally and helped with creation. If he was, he is not Eve's descendant.

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I would agree that the seed of Eve is Christ. But you cannot believe this. You believe that Jesus was already in existence, therefore he cannot be her seed.

------Why cant I Christ was around but had not come to the earth in flesh
Christ would be the seed that would come into the flesh defeat death (another name for satan) and save us all.

See above

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Have you forgotten what the light is in Genesis 1:3 is?

Light.

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The enmity is between our sinful tendencies and ourselves. That is our true enemy.

wow Matt dont think I ever heard you be so wrong The bible does not say this

It does in fact teach this. And since neither of us are successful in staying within the framework of Genesis alone, see my next post.

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15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Its not between our sinful tendencies and ourselves its between what God said The seed of Eve and the seed of the Serpent no where does it say mans sinful tendecies.

Did Jesus literally crush satan's head? Did Jesus literally only have a bruised heal?

[Matt Smith]

Response 13 - part 2

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Hmmm... A battle between an extinct Canaanite nation and the Jews. Facinating...

First I didnt say Canaanite I said Kenite two very differnet nations.

The Kenites were a Canaanite nation (ie. lived in Canaan).

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And you think the Kenites were destoyed?

Yep

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when? are you saying the flood destroyed them?

Nope. The Kenites did not come about until around the time of Abraham

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allow me to prove you wrong

Okay

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Genesis 15:19
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

Okay. Time of Abraham.

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1 Samuel 15:6
And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among

Okay. Time of Saul and David.

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1 Chronicles 2:55
And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Okay. Temple era.

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Wait a second we are in chronicles I thought the Kenites were whiped out in genesis?

Nope. The descendants of Cain were wiped out as were most of the descendants of Seth (only 8 of them survived). The Kenites aren't even mentioned in Scripture until the time of Abraham, a long time after the flood.

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Cool. Eight generations in less than 130 years. Vigerous bunch.

Yes indeed but its a good change this record has been broke

Only if each generation birthed a child when they were 15.

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There we go again with the two race thing. I have shown in the last 11 responses that none of what you imagine has ever occurred, and is not even supported by scripture.

Its important to follow the bloobline of Adam and the bloodline of Cain.

Only the Bible does not make a distiction between the two.

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Why do you think the names are so similiar its not a conisedence please read the names and tell me why you believe they are so similiar.

And next you are going to tell me that the Joshua that led Israel into the land is Jesus because their names are identical. Surely you have a better argument than that?

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See above. No satan sex, not satan child, just the natural process of "the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain".

SURE and God just forgot to have Cains name put in the generations of Adam

Nope. See Genesis 4.... and remember there's no chapter divisions in the original.

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Must be your best friend....

Seriously, you have never proved that there is even this devil/satan. There is no mention of a satan in Genesis, or Exodus, or Leviticus, or Numbers, or Deuteronomy, or Joshua, or Judges, or Ruth, or.... Well you get the idea. This satan you speak of is a figment of your preconceived imagination and does not in reality exist.

Yes there is but he is not playing the adversarie role in Genesis hes playing the Serpent role. Satan and the Devil will gome latter as will the dragon and the 2 beast.

Or Samuel, or Kings, or Chronicles, or Ezra, or Nehemiah.... Still looking....

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Again you have not answered what is the light and the darkness refering to in Genesis 1:3? I know youre trapped cause you cant say the sun.

Answered in Response 11, part 1, first 2 sentences.

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Makes for a nice fairy tale.

This from the guy who believes in the magical tree and the snake that speaks hebrew

What magical tree?

[Matt Smith]

This article is taken directly (word for word) from here. I quote it because this is what I believe the Bible teaches, and it words it better than I can.

The Edenic Covenant

Genesis 3:15 - "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Introduction

The Edenic covenant in Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of the Bible, it is the first promise regarding a seed, it is the first note of the salvation that was to come through Jesus Christ. The language God uses is called "allegory" because it uses people, things, and happenings and gives them another meaning or uses them in a symbolic way to teach a lesson. We shall see in our study of the Bible that in Genesis 3:15 God has taken the Serpent to represent the thinking of the flesh, and the Woman represents the thinking of the Spirit. The Seed of the Serpent would come to represent all those who oppose God and are ruled by sin. The Seed of the Woman comes to represent first of all, Jesus Christ, and later those who are "in Christ".

The Serpent = The Mind of the Flesh

The Serpent was a liar. His mind was undirected by God and therefore a "mind of the flesh". He declared, "Thou shalt not surely die," which was a lie, and the product of his own thoughts which were reasoned upon his own observation. Hence it was the thinking of the flesh. The error of the serpent is what Paul terms as "the carnal mind", which he declares "is enmity with God" (Romans 8:7). This in its outworking, incited Eve to sin which, in turn, brought death. The serpent therefore, stands for the flesh unilluminated by divine revelation, formulating false teaching, bringing forth sin and death.

The Woman = The Mind of the Spirit

The Woman proclaimed the truth received by divine revelation. She faithfully set forth the facts concerning God's law, even though she was led astray and sinned. In the allegory she represents those who receive divine instruction. The woman, in scripture, is representative of the true believers in God (i.e. 2 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:31-32; Isaiah 54:6).

The Seed of the Serpent = Those Ruled by the Mind of the Flesh

The seed is that which is produced from the thinking of the flesh and therefore it comes to represent all those who disobey God and call him a liar. The wicked are often described as serpents or a generation of vipers (i.e. Psalm 58:4; 140:3; Matthew 23:33; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4; Romans 8:5-9; John 8:44).

The Seed of the Woman = Those Ruled by the Mind of the Spirit

The seed of the woman first of all represents Christ who overcame the flesh (Galatians 3:16; Romans 8:3; 1 Peter 2:21-22) by strict obedience to the instruction of God. We become part of the same seed by baptism into Jesus Christ and the transforming of our minds unto spiritual matters (Romans 6:11-13; Galatians 3:26-29; Ephesians 4:22-24).

"It shall bruise thy head" = The Defeat of Sin and Death through Jesus Christ

"thou shalt bruise his heel" = The Temporary Death of Jesus Christ for Three Days

The word "bruise" in Genesis 3:15 is from the Hebrew shuwph, which means "to crush". To "crush" the head is a fatal blow but to crush a heel is only a temporary wound. Genesis 3:15 therefore promises to completely destroy the effects of sin brought into being through the serpent's teaching, though, in doing so, the seed of the woman (i.e. Christ) would be temporarily wounded thereby. This was accomplished through the sacrifice of Christ. Though he died, it was only a temporary affliction, for he rose triumphant over death, and provided the means whereby his followers could triumph over sin and death which was brought by the serpent's thinking. This is what Paul says in Hebrews 2:14,

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death (a crushed heel) he might destroy (a crushed head) him that had the power of death (sin, Romans 6:23), that is, the devil"

This verse says that Christ came in the nature which is common to all mankind. Strengthened by the Father (Psalm 80:17), he conquered the thinking of the flesh and did not fall like Adam and Eve as it says in Hebrews 4:15,

"For we have not an high priest (Jesus Christ) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Therefore he overcame the thinking or temptation brought by the serpent or the fleshly mind. His obedience extended to submitting to death on the cross, thus he publicly demonstrated that flesh must be crucified in order to serve God aright (Galatians 5:24; Romans 8:3). His obedience ensured his resurrection to life eternal, so that he was clothed upon with Divine nature and no longer subject to the flesh (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 1 Peter 4:1-2).

Conclusion

Through grace and mercy Yahweh has offered forgiveness to all who would come unto Him through Christ. By an acknowledgment of the Truth, followed by the act of obedience in passing through the waters of baptism unto newness of life (Romans 6:4), those "in Christ" constituting the seed of the woman, commence a walk in faith that can gain for them eternal life in the Age to come. Sin may crush them on the heel, but in the strength of Yahweh, manifested through His Son, they will ultimately attain unto the victory that will lead them triumphantly from the domination of sin and the grave, to a resurrection to life eternal.

* Chart in next post goes with this article *

[Matt Smith]

The Serpent	The Enmity	The Woman
Expressed the mind of the flesh, based on mere observation.	Enmity between the mind of the spirit and that of the fleshRomans 8:6-7; Galatians 5:17	Expressed the mind of the spirit given through divine revelation.
Proclaimed false doctrine"Ye shall not surely die" Genesis 3:4	Enmity between truth and error2 Corinthians 11:3-4,13; Galatians 1:8-9	Proclaimed the truth as given by GodGenesis 3:2-3
The serpent's teaching brought forth sin which resulted in death	Romans 6:23; 7:17-23; 1 Corinthians 15:33,56; Ephesians 4:18	The truth leads to obedience and life.Romans 6:17; John 17:3
The seed of the serpent are those motivated by the mind of the flesh. They are described as being "in the flesh"Romans 8:8	Enmity between the two seedsMatthew 23:33; John 15:19; 16:33	The seed of the woman are those motivated by the mind of the Spirit. They are described as being "in Christ".Galatians 5:24

[nightmare]

The Serpent = The Mind of the Flesh
The Woman = The Mind of the Spirit
The Seed of the Woman = Those Ruled by the Mind of the Spirit

I looked all through Genesis this thinking is not there can you prove this?
This sounds like more of what you believe than from scripture.

Also Romans 8 is about men who walk after the spirit, how are you combinind it with Genesis 3?
It does not refer to a particular seed Romans 8 is about all men. The seeds in Genesis 3 refers to Christ and the children of the devil.

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 28 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

The Serpent = The Mind of the Flesh
The Woman = The Mind of the Spirit
The Seed of the Woman = Those Ruled by the Mind of the Spirit

I looked all through Genesis this thinking is not there can you prove this?
This sounds like more of what you believe than from scripture.

Also Romans 8 is about men who walk after the spirit, how are you combinind it with Genesis 3?
It does not refer to a particular seed Romans 8 is about all men. The seeds in Genesis 3 refers to Christ and the children of the devil.

Did you read the article and look up the passages? Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you spotted the bolded parts and only latched onto that...

[nightmare]

Sounds like one mans opion to me you believe the serpent is literal so this is the only conclusion you can come up with. The bible never says the seed of the serpent is the mind of flesh.
If you want to know what the seed of the Serpent is read the parable of the tares. It goes totally against
what you are saying or this article is saying.
Also why change the bible to fit your doctrine?

The Woman = The Mind of the Spirit NO it says the woman is Eve her seed is Christ

The Seed of the Woman = Those Ruled by the Mind of the Spirit NO it doesnt say this either The seed of the woman would crush the head of the Serpent Its Christ not those ruled by the spirit. Just Christ.
Basically He saying Christ was out there talking to himself and tempting himself, sorry not buying it.

[Matt Smith]

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Please explain in clear language how you view this passage.

[nightmare]

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God will put Hatred between Satan, Cain and the Kenites v.s. Christ and the jews.
The kenites following Satan will bruise the heel of Christ (this happened at the death of Christ)
Christ will in return kill Satan
But for those with eyes to see The hatred was there in a way already, personally I think Satan hated Eve from the moment she was created.
Also Cain killed Abel more enmity
crucify him crucify him more enmity for it was these kenites mixed in with the real Jews listen to what the spirit says to the churches

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 28 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God will put Hatred between Satan, Cain and the Kenites v.s. Christ and the jews.

Okay, so you view the prophecy as being present in allegorical fashion too.

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The kenites following Satan will bruise the heel of Christ (this happened at the death of Christ)

Ignoring your incorrect "facts", do you know what else happened at Jesus' death?

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Christ will in return kill Satan

Hmmm.... See my question above.

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But for those with eyes to see The hatred was there in a way already, personally I think Satan hated Eve from the moment she was created.

Chapter & verse please

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Also Cain killed Abel more enmity
crucify him crucify him more enmity for it was these kenites mixed in with the real Jews listen to what the spirit says to the churches

Okay, the last part was less than coherent, but I get the general idea.



Some of the issues you need to resolve:

1. The lack of evidence for a satan in Genesis
2. The absence of Kenites prior to the time of Abraham
3. The Biblical evidence that Adam is Cain's father (rather than your belief that it was satan)
4. The lack of evidence that Jesus existed prior to his conception in Mary
5. The lack of evidence that the fall was sexual in nature
6. The lack of evidence that the serpent is anything other than a serpent
7. The lack of evidence that a tree is something other than a tree
8. The fact that Jesus killed the Biblical devil on the day he died

Edited by Matt Smith, 29 January 2008 - 03:11 PM.
clarified some statements

[nightmare]

LISTEN CAREFUL

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. In this chapter Satan is being reffered to as the "Dragon" then in verse 15 he is called the serpent again why?
Because the serpent cast out is mouth a flood.

A flood of lies not actual water but as you see in genesis when he was using that slick tongue he was the serpent also. When Satan is trying to decieve you with words he will be called the "serpent"

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now he goes back to the dragon are we dealing with a "serpent" and a "dragon"? NO Revelation 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. Its the same person. When will you except the truth it right here

Serpent=dragon=satan=devil this is pure scripture why wont you except it? if you do not fully understand the roles of Satan and his little back of tricks, how will you be able to put on the full armour of God. Granted you have put some on but your definately exsposing some skin.

Now I will answer your questions

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 29 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

LISTEN CAREFUL

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. In this chapter Satan is being reffered to as the "Dragon" then in verse 15 he is called the serpent again why?
Because the serpent cast out is mouth a flood.

A flood of lies not actual water but as you see in genesis when he was using that slick tongue he was the serpent also. When Satan is trying to decieve you with words he will be called the "serpent"

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now he goes back to the dragon are we dealing with a "serpent" and a "dragon"? NO Revelation 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. Its the same person. When will you except the truth it right here

You cannot use symbolic passages of Scripture to interpret literal passages of Scripture. You end up contradicting the rest of Bible teaching.

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Serpent=dragon=satan=devil this is pure scripture why wont you except it?

I will not accept it because it isn't there....

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if you do not fully understand the roles of Satan and his little back of tricks, how will you be able to put on the full armour of God. Granted you have put some on but your definately exsposing some skin.

Now I will answer your questions

I'm waiting.

[nightmare]

Hey Matt before I post again please tell me what you believe or how you interpret Revelations 12 9 and why did they choose to use for names?

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 30 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

Hey Matt before I post again please tell me what you believe or how you interpret Revelations 12 9 and why did they choose to use for names?

Rev 12 is about the Pagan Roman power "opposing" and "accusing" the saints and all others that claim to follow Christ. Hence the name.

[nightmare]

YouR error is coming to light. you claim that Revelation 12 is about the Roman empire but know where does it talk about this, you are clearly changing the word of God.


Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This "wonder" is a great sign in the heavens. The "woman" here is not the church, for a church building has never delivered any child. This "mother" has nothing to do with the church. This woman is "Israel", the twelve sons of Jacob, or tribes [John 16:21].

Revelation 12:2 "And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

This "child" to be delivered is the Messiah, and the woman delivering the child is the symbol of "Israel", however, in the physical sense of this earth age, we call her "Mary". It is Satan's sole purpose to destroy this child. This woman is the wife and the son of Almighty God, and God wants us to feel and understand the events occurring then. What happens to them affects Him, exactly as it would you or I in a similar case.

Revelation 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, haven seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

This wonder, the "Great red dragon", is always Satan. Here again, it is all happening in heaven, prior to Genesis 1:2, in the first earth age. All these events will be just like it will be at the end of this earth age. Satan had seven dominions then, with ten agencies of power and that had their authority. Satan had complete universal control over that prior earth kingdom; and he had total political control. This we will see in Revelation 13, is a copy of this earth age, and the United Nations, with it's ten units of power, taking control over all it's dominions. Though the forms of government and their systems appear at first to be the same, we will see the differences between these two ages: That of the first, and the flesh age we are now in.

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

The "stars" of heaven are the "sons of God". This "old dragon" caused one third of all of God's creation to follow him. One third of God's children, are all those in their "soul bodies", are also called "angelic souls". No my friend, they do not have wings, but the cherubs do.

What it is saying here, is through Satan's fall in the first earth age, he drew one third of God's children to him. He caused them to fall, and they worshipped him, and believed in him to be their God. That is also his desire also for this age; to cause you and I, the children of God, to worship him
Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

The "man child" that was brought forth in the little town of Bethlehem when Jesus the Christ child was born. There are only two events that sit upon this throne, and the only one to do this was a child. Get it? That child is Jesus Christ.

This verse covers two advents [comings]; the first is Christ's birth as a child, and His second coming will be at the seventh trumpet. Then He will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

This time is when God's protection is given for the woman "Israel". Following the resurrection, and transposing these days into years, it would bring us up to the early 1800's A.D., when the house of Israel nations became superpowers.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

This event brings us back into heaven. The war is between Satan [the dragon] and his angels, who are fighting against Michael and his angels. Satan will lose.

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

This is the time of the sounding of the fifth trumpet, when Satan and his fallen angels are released upon the earth for the final five months period, spoken of in Revelation 9:5, 10. Satan will spend five months here on earth deceiving all mankind, then go to the pit for the thousand years. After that thousand years, Satan [not his fallen angels] will be released for a short period, then go to perdition [perish]. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, he will not be allowed to return. Today Satan is in heaven accusing the saints before the Lord.

This is prophesy that will come in the very near future.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

If you were ever confused who Satan is, John calls him by the names he used while playing his different roles on earth. The "dragon" is Satan's role in that first earth age, when one third of all of God's children followed him. Satan's evil spirit is allowed on earth now, along with his demons. However, you haven't seen Satan in person yet. Satan and his angels, both physically and bodily, will come to earth just as they did in Genesis 6.

When Satan is cast out it will be as it was in the days of Noah. This is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:37: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mankind will be mixing with the angels, and the women even marrying them just as was going on in Noah's day before the flood. Sodomy will be common, and all forms of filth will be made public, and accepted and considered normal. The world and the kenite influence is preparing us, and our mind to accept all forms of filth in sex and marriage as being natural; and to consider their perversion as being of God.

Your acceptance and view of this filth of sodomy and religious form will tell you to what state of depravity your mind has sunk. The condition of your soul will be determined by what you know, and how you stand on these issues, at Satan's arrival to earth.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [authority] of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

This is why Satan's other name is "the accuser", for he continually stands before God's throne accusing all the saints of God. When you mess up, Satan will let God know about it. That is why it is important for us to repent immediately when we become aware of sin in our lives. Then all barriers between God and us are removed. Satan will continue to accuse you before God, right up to the time he is caste out to the earth.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ's blood. You are the "elect" when you understand who Satan is, and what will come to pass. God has promised you and I that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

When Satan is caste out, those dear souls in heaven will start a celebration in heaven. Those are the dear Christians that have died and are in heaven with the Father. However, Satan [the devil] is coming to earth with his angels to bring the wrath of their deception with them. Satan is not after your body, but after your soul.

Satan knows God's word, and the judgment passed upon him. He is sentenced to death already, and he knows his time is short. He will come to earth with his bag of tricks, and lying wonders, and the with authority from God to deceive every man on this earth. The only exception is to those who have the seal [knowledge] of God [written in God's Word] in their minds for they will not be deceived.

If you have not taken the time to put that truth in his Word into your mind, you will fall for Satan's razzle-dazzle sideshow of tricks. Satan will walk this earth with his fallen angels, and you will see them, hear their speech and even present themselves as fellow men. You are not going to fly out of here, but face them in this generation, and you will either stand against Satan and his realm, or you will fall. What is at stake here is your soul, and not your flesh body.

Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

We see the woman here again, "Israel", who is now identified and promoting Jesus Christ. Though Satan has the rest of the heathen world, but also he wants your soul. If you still think the woman [Israel] are the Jews, It will be almost impossible for you to understand this. For "Israel" is the offspring also of the ten tribes that were scattered. Yet today they exist in large part as the Christian nations of the world. The prophet Hosea identified them in Hosea 1:10.

No Matt this is not about the roman empire and you failed to tell me why there 4 names used in revelations 12 9
Revelation is a book that could very easy destroy this nonsense doctrine brought by Christadelphians.
So you tell yourself its not literal this is a way to prevent the Word from exsposing your mistruths when you read somehting that proves you wrong all you can say is you cant take it literal.

"Revelation" means to "to reveal" or "unveil" something. When you unveil anything, you make it known

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

This is not the Revelation of John, but a Revelation of Jesus Christ. "Jesus" means "God's Savior", and "Christ" means the "Anointed One [Messiah]". Jesus the Christ is the person that this Revelation is by. Jesus showed the Revelation to John, and told Jesus told John to write it down. This Revelation is directed to, and revealed to God's servant's, and those servants are living in every corner of the earth in the "time of the end


Revelation 1:2 "Who bare record [witness] of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

John bore witness of this record given by Jesus, God's anointed Messiah. The record of Revelation reveals more then John had seen, but in the Greek, it mean "to both see and to hear with understanding". Now let's let the Word speak for Himself.

Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY "DO NOT TAKE REVELATIONS LITERAL" ACTUALLY ITS FOR YOU TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND. YOU HAVE DECIDED YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE THAT REVELATIONS CANT BE TAKIN LITERAL I NOTICED ALOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE DO THE SAME THING. IF YOUR DOCTRINE CANT EXPLAIN YOU SAY DONT TAKE IT LITERAL JUST GROW UP ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES AND GET THE TRUTH. I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE THESE THINGS WILL COME TO PASS AND WHEN THEY DO; WILL YOU STILL SAY "NOT LITERA." WHEN YOU SEE THE ANTICHRIST(satan) with all signs and wonders
WILL YOU SAY HE IS NOT REAL THEN?

[Matt Smith]

Hello once again nightmare.

First of all, this thread is really going beyond the scope for which it was intended, but that's fine. We can work with it.

In your last post you cover two points which need addressing.

• Revelation - What is it all about and how to interpret it
  
• Who are the characters in Revelation 12?

I hope to answer both of these.



Revelation - Is it a book of symbols?

In a very quick answer, yes. Revelation 1:1 states:

[indent]"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"[/indent]

The bolded word above ("signified") tells us that the book is presented in signs, or symbols. This means that a candlestick, for example, is symbolic of something other than a literal candlestick.

In case we missed this important point, it is repeated seven more times in the book (Rev. 12:1 "wonder"; 12:3 "wonder"; 13:13 "wonders"; 13:14 "miracles"; 15:1 "sign"; 16:14 "miracles"; 19:20 "miracles").

Revelation - How are we to interpret it?

Like all proper New Testament studies, we should look to the Old Testament and find how and where the Old Testament used similar language and what it meant then.

There are two major books that use symbolic language similar to Revelation; Ezekiel and Daniel. These are not the only ones. The minor prophet Zechariah also uses this type of language. And there are others.

Revelation - How did Daniel use the symbol of beasts?

We find that Daniel uses the symbol of beasts in two chapters, seven and eight. How were these to be interpreted?

In Daniel 7, we are given the answer.

[indent]Daniel 7:17 "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

Daniel 7:23 "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."[/indent]

Daniel 8 also gives us the answer another set of beasts, with details this time.

[indent]Daniel 8:20-21 "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."[/indent]

There is more to the interpretation, but we are just looking at the identifications for now.

Now, how are we to know what kingdoms Daniel 7 is talking about? Is there another way kingdoms are spoken of in Daniel?

Yes, and it's found in Daniel 2. In a nutshell, the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) had a dream of a large image of a man with a head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. Daniel interpreted this dream like this:

[indent]Dan 2:38-40 "...Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron..."[/indent]

Four consecutive kingdoms beginning with the Babylon Empire, which of course would give us the Medo-Persian empire, the Greek Empire and ending with the Roman Empire (the feet of iron and clay being part of this).

Now, can we justify using the interpretation of the prophecy in Daniel 2, to identify the beasts in Daniel 7? Again, the answer is yes. Let's compare the chapters.

• Daniel 2 - Four kingdoms represented by four metals
  
• Daniel 7 - Four Kingdoms represented by four beasts

• Daniel 2 - The fourth kingdom is represented by iron
  
• Daniel 7 - The fourth kingdom is represented by a beast with great iron teeth

• Daniel 2 - The image and its metals are terminated (in the iron period) by the kingdom of God
  
• Daniel 7 - The beasts, and specifically the fourth beast with great iron teeth is terminated by the kingdom of God

The conclusion is that they both represent the same thing, one prophecy for the benefit of Nebuchadnezzar giving a brief outline of events leading to the setting up of God's kingdom, the other prophecy for Daniel's benefit giving a more detailed look at the fourth and final beast which is in existence just prior to the setting up of the kingdom of God.

The other conclusion we can safely make is that Revelation, using the same type of symbology, is using beasts to represent kingdoms. What kingdoms they are have yet to be determined.

Revelation - Can we carry over the interpretation of Daniel's beasts into Revelation?

Of course the other question that could be asked is, "Should we carry over the interpretation of Daniel's beasts into Revelation?".

Let's do the same thing we did with Daniel 2 & 7; look for similarities.

What beast looks similar to the beasts found in Revelation? The fourth.

• Daniel 7 - ten horns
  
• Revelation 12 - ten horns
  
• Revelation 13:1 - ten horns
  
• Revelation 13:11 - two horns
  
• Revelation 17 - ten horns

• Daniel 7 - one head
  
• Revelation 12 - seven heads
  
• Revelation 13:1 - seven heads
  
• Revelation 13:11 - one head
  
• Revelation 17 - seven heads

• Daniel 7 - dreadful, terrible, strong exceedingly
  
• Revelation 12 - large, strong
  
• Revelation 13:1 - powerful, fearful
  
• Revelation 13:11 - same power as first beast (13:1)
  
• Revelation 17 - no description

• Daniel 7 - little horn that speaks blasphemy and wars with the saints
  
• Revelation 12 - wars (accuses) with the saints (brethren)
  
• Revelation 13:1 - speaks blasphemy and wars with the saints
  
• Revelation 13:11 - speaks blasphemy and wars with the saints
  
• Revelation 17 - full of blasphemy and makes war with the Lamb and those with him

These are some of the similarities (and differences), but this does not make it conclusive. Is there anything in Revelation that would tell us that we are on the right track? Yes. Revelation 17:6-14 tell us that the beast is a kingdom and the horns also represent kingdoms that derive their power from the main kingdom.

This, plus the similarities to Daniel's fourth beast tell us that we are dealing with different views of the same empire (kingdom). Or, in other words, the beasts of Revelation represent different phases of the Roman empire.

Continued Next Post

Edited by Matt Smith, 05 February 2008 - 04:47 PM.

[Matt Smith]

In the last post, it was clearly shown that Revelation is a book of signs (symbols used to describe something else) which need to be interpeted by using similar symbols found elsewhere in the Bible.

So what about the rest of the symbols in Revelation 12?

Revelation - The woman

In scripture the faithful are portrayed as chaste virgins, whereas the unfaithful are portrayed as harlots.

The Faithful

Matthew 25 - "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."

2 Corinthians 11:2 - "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

2 Kings 19:20-21 - "Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard. This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee." (See also Isaiah 37:22)

In other words, "unspotted from the world".

The Unfaithful

The unfaithful are considered harlots.

[indent]Ezekiel 16:28 - "Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied."

Ezekiel 23:19 - "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."[/indent]

Is the woman in Revelation 12 faithful or unfaithful? She has some very telling characteristics, but the key one is that she is pregnant. This alone removes her from being the "chaste virgin to Christ". But, as we note in Revelation 12:17, there were some in her midst who are described as "the remnant of her seed", at term that is often used of small groups of faithful (Isaiah 10:21; Joel 2:32; Zephaniah 3:13; Romans 11:5).

It is clear that she is a mix of faithful and unfaithful that make up the Ecclesia of God. Our conclution is that this woman is the Ecclesia of the time, made up of both true believers and apostates.

Revelation - The man

If we are correct about the identification of the woman, the identification of the Man should be fairly simple.

Some of the key features of the Man:

• The system of rule, having Christ-like features, is born into the "heaven" — 12:5
  
• Red dragon is defeated in war — 12:7-9.
  
• "Christ's Kingdom" is installed — 12:10.
  
• True saints are still persecuted — 12:17

So this Man, though portrayed in Christ-like symbols, is not Christ because the he fails to be a saviour for the saints, who are still being persecuted at the end of the chapter.

Do we find in other passages of scripture a description of a Man who has Christ-like features? Again, yes. In 2 Thessalonians 2, we have a description of the "Man of sin", who has Christ-like features, but it identified as being false.

Do we find other passages of scripture that describe a Man who has come out of the ecclesia of God? Yes. Again in 2 Thessalonians 2 we are told of an apostacy ('falling away"), which by definition means that the "Man of sin" left (or came out of) the ecclesia. There's another passage found in 2 John 2:18-19 which describes those who "went out from us", or committed apostacy.

Revelation - Conclusions

The heavens, as used in prophetic scripture, represents the political (ruling) environment. When woman is pictured in Revelation 12 as being "in heaven", she is in the political realm. When the man-child is pictured as caught up to heaven, it again is referring to the ruling environment.

Note that this occurs during the earliest form of the Roman beast (the great red dragon), pagan Rome. The Man who comes out of the church (woman) tosses out the pagan system, which identifies him as Constantine. The story continues in chapter 13, but we really dont have time to cover that.

---------------------------

There is a six part series on the "First Principles of Bible Prophecy", which I suggest you read (with Bible in hand, of course). It is structured as follows:

Section 1 - Understanding Bible Prophecy

• Introduction
  
• God's Servants the Prophets
  
• The Purpose of Prophecy
  
• Signs and Symbols
  
• Nebuchandnezzar's Dream

Section 2 - Having Confidence in Bible Prophecy

• Written for our Learning
  
• Babylon: To Become a Ruin
  
• Tyre - A Place for Fishing Nets
  
• Egypt - A Base Nation
  
• Edom - A Perpetual Waste

Section 3 - Prophecies of Jesus Christ

• Jesus Christ - His First Advent
  
• The Time is Fulfilled
  
• Born to be King
  
• The Stone of Israel
  
• And Beginning at Moses

Section 4 - Prophecies About Israel

• The Jews God's Witnesses
  
• The Desolation of Israel
  
• The Restoration of Israel
  
• Israel and the Kingdom of God

Section 5 - Prophecies about Jesus Second Coming

• The Second Coming of Jesus
  
• The Work of Jesus at His Return
  
• How Christ's Return Will Affect the World
  
• The Gathering Storm
  
• Unfulfilled Old Testament Prophecies

Section 6 - Visions, Dreams and the Word of God

• A Falling Away First
  
• The Man of Sin
  
• Antichrist
  
• The Beasts of Daniel's Prophecies
  
• The King of Fierce Countenance
  
• The Beast's Revival
  
• The Final Conflict
  
• The Unfolding Scroll

[nightmare]

In the last post, it was clearly shown that Revelation is a book of signs (symbols used to describe something else) which need to be interpeted by using similar symbols found elsewhere in the Bible.-----------Yes but not the whole book, you must no what to take literal and what not to, the spirit leads me what about you?

So what about the rest of the symbols in Revelation 12?-------------Yes what about it?

Revelation - The woman----Heres were you losing your grip before we go looking for other passages in other books, lets find out what Revelations 12 has to say about this woman.

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."
----This woman is Isaic Sarah Rebekah Abraham and Leah or ISRAEL
----ISRAEL is being refered to as a woman because Israel gave birth to Christ meaning Christ would be born through this nation. Now these 12 stars what could they possibly mean could it be TRIBES? I believe so

(JOHN 16:20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

In scripture the faithful are portrayed as chaste virgins, whereas the unfaithful are portrayed as harlots.

-------------SPIRITUAL SPREAKING

The Faithful

Matthew 25 - "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."

2 Corinthians 11:2 - "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

2 Kings 19:20-21 - "Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard. This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee." (See also Isaiah 37:22)

In other words, "unspotted from the world".---No from the world for most people but during this time the focus is on being unspotted from the Antichrist.

The Unfaithful

The unfaithful are considered harlots. ------Matthew 24 you better not be pregnent giving sup when Christ returns

Ezekiel 16:28 - "Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied."

Ezekiel 23:19 - "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."

Is the woman in Revelation 12 faithful or unfaithful? She has some very telling characteristics, but the key one is that she is pregnant. This alone removes her from being the "chaste virgin to Christ". But, as we note in Revelation 12:17, there were some in her midst who are described as "the remnant of her seed", at term that is often used of small groups of faithful (Isaiah 10:21; Joel 2:32; Zephaniah 3:13; Romans 11:5).

It is clear that she is a mix of faithful and unfaithful that make up the Ecclesia of God. Our conclution is that this woman is the Ecclesia of the time, made up of both true believers and apostates.

Revelation - The man------------ The man is Christ

If we are correct about the identification of the woman, the identification of the Man should be fairly simple.-----Very simple when you get that Roman empire stuff out your head but I understand you firmly believe that everything in revelations is after 90AD correct? So this is pretty much the only thing that you can throw together to describe Revelations 12 this Roman Empire theory is really weak Matt...........

Some of the key features of the Man:------HERE are some feature he is to rule over all nation (all ethnic groups) with a iron rod(power) and will be caught up to his THRONE very important ** Constatine Did not rule all people and he did not get caught up Jesus was caught up Elijah was caught up Moses was probley caught up not no darn Constatine but that doesnt matter because only one of these people have a throne and thats Christ. So yes we now know who the man is....

The system of rule, having Christ-like features, is born into the "heaven" — 12:5
Red dragon is defeated in war — 12:7-9.
"Christ's Kingdom" is installed — 12:10.
True saints are still persecuted — 12:17-----

So this Man, though portrayed in Christ-like symbols, is not Christ because the he fails to be a saviour for the saints, who are still being persecuted at the end of the chapter. -------------- HAHAHAHA This is your lodgic of course the saints all still being persecuted THE DRAGON(satan antichrist) is on earth and Christ has not returned yet READ JOHN 16:21 Revelations 12 is moving threw time pretty fast please try and keep out........

Do we find in other passages of scripture a description of a Man who has Christ-like features? Again, yes. In 2 Thessalonians 2, we have a description of the "Man of sin", who has Christ-like features, but it identified as being false.------The man in revelations 12 was caught up to his throne do you understand what that means----HE IS NOT A FAKE this is the real LORD no other man or being of any kind has ever been caught up "to a throne" except Christ.

Do we find other passages of scripture that describe a Man who has come out of the ecclesia of God? Yes. Again in 2 Thessalonians 2 we are told of an apostacy ('falling away"), which by definition means that the "Man of sin" left (or came out of) the ecclesia. There's another passage found in 2 John 2:18-19 which describes those who "went out from us", or committed apostacy.

Revelation - Conclusions-------Conclusion your wrong

The heavens, as used in prophetic scripture, represents the political (ruling) environment. When woman is pictured in Revelation 12 as being "in heaven", she is in the political realm. When the man-child is pictured as caught up to heaven, it again is referring to the ruling environment.

Note that this occurs during the earliest form of the Roman beast (the great red dragon), pagan Rome. The Man who comes out of the church (woman) tosses out the pagan system, which identifies him as Constantine. The story continues in chapter 13, but we really dont have time to cover that.

-----------Your problem is you dont understand that Revelations 12 is a overview chapter But the reason you cant except this is because your doctrine tells you all of Revelations is after 90ad So you are left trying to shove a pagan roman empire into this chapter and its not working out to good........

Cheers

[Matt Smith]

Hi nightmare

I was worried you gave up on me.

nightmare, on Feb 12 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

Matt Smith said:

In the last post, it was clearly shown that Revelation is a book of signs (symbols used to describe something else) which need to be interpeted by using similar symbols found elsewhere in the Bible.

-----------Yes but not the whole book, you must no what to take literal and what not to, the spirit leads me what about you?

I believe that the whole book is, but if you just want to limit it just the passages that state specifically that they are, that's fine. Revelation 12 is one of the chapters that gives it double emphasis.

Quote

Quote

So what about the rest of the symbols in Revelation 12?

-------------Yes what about it?

Quote

Revelation - The woman

----Heres were you losing your grip before we go looking for other passages in other books, lets find out what Revelations 12 has to say about this woman.

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."
----This woman is Isaic Sarah Rebekah Abraham and Leah or ISRAEL
----ISRAEL is being refered to as a woman because Israel gave birth to Christ meaning Christ would be born through this nation. Now these 12 stars what could they possibly mean could it be TRIBES? I believe so

Revelation is a book that is written to the saints and it is about events that affect the saints (Rev 1:1)

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

Quote

(JOHN 16:20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

This is about Jesus’ second coming, not his birth.

Quote

Quote

In scripture the faithful are portrayed as chaste virgins, whereas the unfaithful are portrayed as harlots.

-------------SPIRITUAL SPREAKING

Yes. That is why it is used in prophecy to tell you, or give you a sign of what the passage is about.

Quote

Quote

The Faithful


Matthew 25 - "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."

2 Corinthians 11:2 - "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

2 Kings 19:20-21 - "Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard. This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee." (See also Isaiah 37:22)


In other words, "unspotted from the world"

.---No from the world for most people but during this time the focus is on being unspotted from the Antichrist.

“Unspotted from the world” is a direct quoted from the book of James. It echoes what is found in Ephesians 5 which reinforces what I’ve said above.

Your “quote” on the other hand is no where to be found in the Bible.

Quote

Quote

The Unfaithful

The unfaithful are considered harlots.

------Matthew 24 you better not be pregnent giving sup when Christ returns

What does this have to do with the unfaithful?

Quote

Quote

Ezekiel 16:28 - "Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied."

Ezekiel 23:19 - "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."


Is the woman in Revelation 12 faithful or unfaithful? She has some very telling characteristics, but the key one is that she is pregnant. This alone removes her from being the "chaste virgin to Christ". But, as we note in Revelation 12:17, there were some in her midst who are described as "the remnant of her seed", at term that is often used of small groups of faithful (Isaiah 10:21; Joel 2:32; Zephaniah 3:13; Romans 11:5).

It is clear that she is a mix of faithful and unfaithful that make up the Ecclesia of God. Our conclusion is that this woman is the Ecclesia of the time, made up of both true believers and apostates.

Revelation - The man

------------ The man is Christ

The evidence would seem to indicate otherwise.

Quote

Quote

If we are correct about the identification of the woman, the identification of the Man should be fairly simple.

-----Very simple when you get that Roman empire stuff out your head but I understand you firmly believe that everything in revelations is after 90AD correct? So this is pretty much the only thing that you can throw together to describe Revelations 12 this Roman Empire theory is really weak Matt...........

The “Roman empire stuff” has been clearly established and can be found in post 57.

As for the date of the writing, it doesn’t really matter when. AD96 is as good as AD67. It doesn’t change the fact that Revelation was given “to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass”. In case you don’t understand that, it means this that are future to the writing of the book.

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Some of the key features of the Man:

------HERE are some feature he is to rule over all nation (all ethnic groups) with a iron rod(power) and will be caught up to his THRONE very important ** Constatine Did not rule all people and he did not get caught up Jesus was caught up Elijah was caught up Moses was probley caught up not no darn Constatine but that doesnt matter because only one of these people have a throne and thats Christ. So yes we now know who the man is....

It’s a symbol, nightmare. Revelation 12 tells you that twice.

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The system of rule, having Christ-like features, is born into the "heaven" — 12:5
Red dragon is defeated in war — 12:7-9.
"Christ's Kingdom" is installed — 12:10.
True saints are still persecuted — 12:17-----


So this Man, though portrayed in Christ-like symbols, is not Christ because the he fails to be a saviour for the saints, who are still being persecuted at the end of the chapter.

-------------- HAHAHAHA This is your lodgic of course the saints all still being persecuted THE DRAGON(satan antichrist) is on earth and Christ has not returned yet READ JOHN 16:21 Revelations 12 is moving threw time pretty fast please try and keep out........

Where is Christ’s throne? On earth – 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Luke 1:31-33

When does he take the throne? At his return – Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:26-27; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

Is Revelation 12 about the establishment of Jesus on his throne? No. The saints are still being persecuted (v. 17).

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Do we find in other passages of scripture a description of a Man who has Christ-like features? Again, yes. In 2 Thessalonians 2, we have a description of the "Man of sin", who has Christ-like features, but it identified as being false.

------The man in revelations 12 was caught up to his throne do you understand what that means----HE IS NOT A FAKE this is the real LORD no other man or being of any kind has ever been caught up "to a throne" except Christ.

It is a symbol.

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Do we find other passages of scripture that describe a Man who has come out of the ecclesia of God? Yes. Again in 2 Thessalonians 2 we are told of an apostacy ('falling away"), which by definition means that the "Man of sin" left (or came out of) the ecclesia. There's another passage found in 2 John 2:18-19 which describes those who "went out from us", or committed apostacy.

Revelation – Conclusions

-------Conclusion your wrong

You have yet to present a Scripturally verifiable exposition. I have established, using Scripture, a foundation for my beliefs and showed how they fit.

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The heavens, as used in prophetic scripture, represents the political (ruling) environment. When woman is pictured in Revelation 12 as being "in heaven", she is in the political realm. When the man-child is pictured as caught up to heaven, it again is referring to the ruling environment.

Note that this occurs during the earliest form of the Roman beast (the great red dragon), pagan Rome. The Man who comes out of the church (woman) tosses out the pagan system, which identifies him as Constantine. The story continues in chapter 13, but we really don’t have time to cover that.

-----------Your problem is you dont understand that Revelations 12 is a overview chapter But the reason you cant except this is because your doctrine tells you all of Revelations is after 90ad So you are left trying to shove a pagan roman empire into this chapter and its not working out to good........


Cheers

Revelation 1:1 tells us that the events that occur in it are after its writing.

Here’s a guide to understanding Revelation.