69 replies to this topic

[Matt Smith]

As mentioned in the "General Theology" section, I would like to discuss this topic with minimum interruptions. I would like us to look at each of the passage we have tried to discuss before.

I propose that we start by looking at the book of Genesis first as a stand alone book (ie. Genesis only, no reference to other parts of scripture), and ask ourselves "what would the first people to read the book understand by it".

My only request beyond this is that we both refrain from calling each other ignorant, etc.

[Matt Smith]

How would someone (ie. Moses) read this?

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Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

[nightmare]

Hey Matt if you dont mind I would rather start at Genesis 1:1 if this is ok I will begin I want to make sure everything is covered before we get to the garden......

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 15 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

Hey Matt if you dont mind I would rather start at Genesis 1:1 if this is ok I will begin I want to make sure everything is covered before we get to the garden......

Go ahead. How would Moses read Genesis 1:1?

[nightmare]

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." ---
Well two things are mentioned here "heaven" and "earth" it does not tell us when they were created it only tells us that God created them both. For right not we can only use common sense and lodgic to estimate how old the earth is.
I believe with all are scientific findings that the earth is millions of years old.
How old do you think it is? if we are close we can move on

[Matt Smith]

The age of the earth is irrelevant to this discussion.

What would the first people to read the book understand by it. Remember, we are looking at Genesis (in this case) as a stand alone book.

[nightmare]

THIS IS HOW I BELIEVE MOSES READ THIS
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

----- The serpent; speaking of one in particular is more subtil then any beast of the field. A snake is not the smartest animal in the animal kingdom. So we are not talking about a literal snake. Then we see this serpent actually talking to Eve, so we know we are not talking about a snake (snakes dont talk)
The Serpent is "more subtil", and wiser then the ways of the world. The word "beast" does not refer only to the animal world, but all living beings, including man. When The Serpent asked the question to Eve, "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" He was not asking the question for the sake of inquiring, but to draw her attention to the matter.

----READ VERY CAREFULLY----

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

THE SERPENT quotation of God, "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the Garden?" is stated in the form of a lie, from what God actually stated in Genesis 2:16 and 17. The exception to "every tree" was, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat."

Genesis 3:2 "And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:"

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die'." Again "THE" TREE A SPECIFIC TREE

[the serpent] started the misquoting when he changed the words of God from "the tree of good and evil", [which is the only exception, to "fruit of the trees of the garden". Now we see Eve continues the misquoting of Scripture, and twisting God's Word to change the entire meaning. God said, "Thou shalt surely die."; where as in the confusion caused by The Serpent twisting, Eve is showing her ignorance in her statement; "lest ye die".

Are we talking about eating fruit from trees, or even trees in this chapter? No, We are talking about symbols for people, which are represented as the trees. When we look up the common word for "trees" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, we find the number # 6086. It reads; "ets, ates; from # 6095, stock tree, timber, wood." It is a common tree.

However the trees in the garden of Eden reads, # 6095. We read in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary; "Atsah, aw-tsaw, prime root, prop. to fasten (or make firm), i.e., to close (the eyes): shut." Under # 6095 Hebrew for trees in the garden) page 90 of Strong's Hebrew dictionary, the other reference to this is # 6096.

The # 6096; "Atseh, aw-tseh, from 6095; the spine, (as giving firmness to the body):-backbone." This # 6096 "atseh" is the tree referred to in Genesis 3:3. In referring to the fruit of a tree, then, you are talking about children.

What runs through the backbone of your body? It is your central nervous system. It is controlling the opening, or closing of your eye. In fact it controls every movement that a person makes, as the system continues the process of sending messages to and from your brain, which never stops.

Very simple when you pray for wisdom and understanding

[Matt Smith]

How I believe Moses read Genesis 3:

Just as it is written. A serpent, a member of the animal kingdom, who was created by God to have the power of speech, had a conversation with Eve and implanted in her mind the idea that she could be as wise as God if she ate of the fruit that was on the forbidden tree. She was deceived into thinking that the "fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise", so she took it and ate.

Literal snake
Literal tree
Literal fruit

[nightmare]

You must go deeper then the surface its right in front of you
Matt snakes dont talk, and a trees cannot make you wise.
God has already givin us dominion over all animals, he gave no exceptions
The Serpent is a name
Do you think snakes use to have legs? I dont
I hope you are prying for understaning as i am it plays a big role

[Matt Smith]

Response 1

nightmare, on Jan 15 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

THIS IS HOW I BELIEVE MOSES READ THIS
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

----- The serpent; speaking of one in particular is more subtil then any beast of the field. A snake is not the smartest animal in the animal kingdom. So we are not talking about a literal snake. Then we see this serpent actually talking to Eve, so we know we are not talking about a snake (snakes dont talk)

The Hebrew word used here is the common word for snake. We are talking about a literal snake.

Could the snake talk? Yes. So could Balaam's donkey, but then Moses wouldn't be reading about that yet...

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The Serpent is "more subtil", and wiser then the ways of the world.

Not quite nightmare.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

Nothing here about "the ways of the world". You are just reading into it.

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The word "beast" does not refer only to the animal world, but all living beings, including man.

Actually there is no word for beast in the Hebrew in this passage, but the word that is used is defined by what it is used in conjunction with. For example here the word (chay, which means living or life) is used in conjunction with the Hebrew word sadeh which means "field, or plain". This defines it at as referring to animals, or field dwelling life.

This word chay is used in many different ways, such as in Genesis 1:20, where it used in conjunction with sherets, which gives it the meaning of "swarming life".

In Genesis 1:21 it is used with two words (nephesh and ramas) and it gives the meaning of "living being(s) that crawl or glide".

It occurs 4 more times in Genesis 1 and then we get to Genesis 2.

In Genesis 2:7 it is used with four words that define it (adam, hayah and nephesh), meaning "man became (to be) a living being".

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When The Serpent asked the question to Eve, "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" He was not asking the question for the sake of inquiring, but to draw her attention to the matter.

Maybe. And the serpent could have observed her avoiding the tree and wondered if it was because said: Is it really true that God said, 'You must not eat from any tree of the orchard'?.

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----READ VERY CAREFULLY----

Good advice

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Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

THE SERPENT quotation of God, "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the Garden?" is stated in the form of a lie, from what God actually stated in Genesis 2:16 and 17. The exception to "every tree" was, "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat."

Correct, they were not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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Genesis 3:2 "And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:"

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die'." Again "THE" TREE A SPECIFIC TREE

Yes, a specific tree. The one in the center of the garden.

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[the serpent] started the misquoting when he changed the words of God from "the tree of good and evil", [which is the only exception, to "fruit of the trees of the garden". Now we see Eve continues the misquoting of Scripture, and twisting God's Word to change the entire meaning. God said, "Thou shalt surely die."; where as in the confusion caused by The Serpent twisting, Eve is showing her ignorance in her statement; "lest ye die".

Sorry, nightmare. "Thou shalt surely die" and "lest ye die" mean the very same thing.

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Are we talking about eating fruit from trees, or even trees in this chapter? No, We are talking about symbols for people, which are represented as the trees. When we look up the common word for "trees" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, we find the number # 6086. It reads; "ets, ates; from # 6095, stock tree, timber, wood." It is a common tree.

That's correct. It is talking about real trees in Genesis 1.

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However the trees in the garden of Eden reads, # 6095.

Oops. Wrong:

[indent]Gen 3:1 Now the serpent⁵¹⁷⁵ was¹⁹⁶¹ more subtle⁶¹⁷⁵ than any^{4480, 3605} beast²⁴¹⁶ of the field⁷⁷⁰⁴ which⁸³⁴ the LORD³⁰⁶⁸ God⁴³⁰ had made.⁶²¹³ And he said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the woman,⁸⁰² Yea,^{637, 3588} hath God⁴³⁰ said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of every^{4480, 3605} tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden?¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:2 And the woman⁸⁰² said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the serpent,⁵¹⁷⁵ We may eat³⁹⁸ of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the trees⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden:¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ which⁸³⁴ is in the midst⁸⁴³² of the garden,¹⁵⁸⁸ God⁴³⁰ hath said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of⁴⁴⁸⁰ it, neither³⁸⁰⁸ shall ye touch⁵⁰⁶⁰ it, lest⁶⁴³⁵ ye die.⁴¹⁹¹ [/indent]

Of course it really doesn't matter, since as you show below, the root word means "to make firm", hence it's usage as a root of the word for tree, wood, or anthing wood related.

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We read in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary; "Atsah, aw-tsaw, prime root, prop. to fasten (or make firm), i.e., to close (the eyes): shut." Under # 6095 Hebrew for trees in the garden) page 90 of Strong's Hebrew dictionary, the other reference to this is # 6096.

I don't have that reference, but let's look at it.

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The # 6096; "Atseh, aw-tseh, from 6095; the spine, (as giving firmness to the body):-backbone." This # 6096 "atseh" is the tree referred to in Genesis 3:3. In referring to the fruit of a tree, then, you are talking about children.

Wow. What leap in logic!!!

The word atseh only ever occurs once in the OT, and that's not in Genesis.

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What runs through the backbone of your body? It is your central nervous system. It is controlling the opening, or closing of your eye. In fact it controls every movement that a person makes, as the system continues the process of sending messages to and from your brain, which never stops.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And as a side note, the usage of the word atseh defines the object's hardness, not it's hollow channel which houses oganic wiring that carries electrical communication.

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Very simple when you pray for wisdom and understanding

Wisdom and understand also come by searching God's word without bias or preconcieved ideas.

Questions

What are you implying with your word study on trees? That they are conscious living beings? Or that they are human beings of some sort?

What is Eve doing when she eats of the fruit of a tree?

What is Adam doing when he eats of the fruit of a tree?

How would Moses know to interpret Genesis 3 the way you did? Especially when there is one book to read (Genesis), and no mention of a satan/devil/fallen angel to be found?

[Matt Smith]

Response 2

nightmare, on Jan 15 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

You must go deeper then the surface its right in front of you

Reading into it something that's not there. That's not good Bible study.

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Matt snakes dont talk

It does if God made it that way, like a certain donkey I can think of....

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and a trees cannot make you wise.

They can if God made it that way....

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God has already givin us dominion over all animals, he gave no exceptions

Yes, and Eve should have exerted her dominion.

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The Serpent is a name

The witness of scripture is totally against that. It shows that nachash is just what it means, snake.

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Do you think snakes use to have legs? I dont

It is a possibility. It is more likely a comment to describe the humble position the serpent would occupy as compared to the other "beasts of the field"

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I hope you are prying for understaning as i am it plays a big role

"The prayer of a righteous person has great effectiveness."

[nightmare]

Moses new these things because he new his Father and Satan has already been mentioned to those with eyes to see.

What are you implying with your word study on trees? That they are conscious living beings? Or that they are human beings of some sort?---- They are beings but Satan is not human. The trunk of a tree symbolizing the back of a man and the branches symbolizing his arms and hands.

What is Eve doing when she eats of the fruit of a tree? sex

What is Adam doing when he eats of the fruit of a tree? joining the party

How would Moses know to interpret Genesis 3 the way you did? Especially when there is one book to read (Genesis), and no mention of a satan/devil/fallen angel to be found? You got it backwards Matt I am interpreting the way moses did, because Moses knew the speech of the Father as do I

Genesis 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."
This is the first mention of Satan and Christ you can say im reading into it, but lets say I have eyes to see and you dont
everytime the spirit reveals things to me you will say im reading into it.
But im telling you Matt I have no need to read into anything I believed the things you believe once, its wrong its a wisdom that is not just on the surface of Gods word but in it. I cannot fully describe it but its there.
But I will continue answering your original post.

[Matt Smith]

Response 3

nightmare, on Jan 16 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

Moses new these things because he new his Father and Satan has already been mentioned to those with eyes to see.

Where in Genesis do you find this in plain teaching?

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What are you implying with your word study on trees? That they are conscious living beings? Or that they are human beings of some sort?

---- They are beings but Satan is not human. The trunk of a tree symbolizing the back of a man and the branches symbolizing his arms and hands.

And yet there is no support for this in the Hebrew. You're grasping at straws

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What is Eve doing when she eats of the fruit of a tree?

sex

So, following your comment to its logical conclusion, despite the fact that God himself defines marriage as "a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family" (Gen 2:24 NET), you now have God condoning extra marital and homosexual affairs when he says "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat".

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What is Adam doing when he eats of the fruit of a tree?

joining the party

See comment above

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How would Moses know to interpret Genesis 3 the way you did? Especially when there is one book to read (Genesis), and no mention of a satan/devil/fallen angel to be found?

You got it backwards Matt I am interpreting the way moses did, because Moses knew the speech of the Father as do I

How would he know that God was meaning satan, when he used the common word for snake, and the common word for tree?

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Genesis 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."
This is the first mention of Satan and Christ you can say im reading into it, but lets say I have eyes to see and you dont
everytime the spirit reveals things to me you will say im reading into it.

The spirit gifts are long gone, nightmare, but that's a discussion for another time.

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But im telling you Matt I have no need to read into anything I believed the things you believe once, its wrong its a wisdom that is not just on the surface of Gods word but in it. I cannot fully describe it but its there.
But I will continue answering your original post.

If it's not there in the Hebrew or the English, you are reading into it your (already existing) beliefs. And that is the case as I have shown in Response 1.

[nightmare]

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

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Result of search for "6095":
4619 Ma`ats mah'-ats from 6095; closure; Maats, an Israelite:--Maaz.


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6086 `ets ates from 6095; a tree (from its firmness); hence, wood (plural sticks):--+ carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood.
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6095 `atsah aw-tsaw' a primitive root; properly, to fasten (or make firm), i.e. to close (the eyes):--shut.
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6096 `atseh aw-tseh' from 6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body):--backbone.
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6095
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops. Wrong not really

[Matt Smith]

Response 4

nightmare, on Jan 16 2008, 01:01 PM, said:

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

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Result of search for "6095":
4619 Ma`ats mah'-ats from 6095; closure; Maats, an Israelite:--Maaz.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6086 `ets ates from 6095; a tree (from its firmness); hence, wood (plural sticks):--+ carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6095 `atsah aw-tsaw' a primitive root; properly, to fasten (or make firm), i.e. to close (the eyes):--shut.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6096 `atseh aw-tseh' from 6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body):--backbone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6095
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops. Wrong not really

Yes really. Your claim was that Genesis used Strong's 6095 in 3:1-3.

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However the trees in the garden of Eden reads, # 6095

This is incorrect as this cut-and-paste from the KJV with Strong's Numbers shows (highlighted in red).

[indent]Gen 3:1 Now the serpent⁵¹⁷⁵ was¹⁹⁶¹ more subtle⁶¹⁷⁵ than any^{4480, 3605} beast²⁴¹⁶ of the field⁷⁷⁰⁴ which⁸³⁴ the LORD³⁰⁶⁸ God⁴³⁰ had made.⁶²¹³ And he said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the woman,⁸⁰² Yea,^{637, 3588} hath God⁴³⁰ said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of every^{4480, 3605} tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden?¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:2 And the woman⁸⁰² said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the serpent,⁵¹⁷⁵ We may eat³⁹⁸ of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the trees⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden:¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ which⁸³⁴ is in the midst⁸⁴³² of the garden,¹⁵⁸⁸ God⁴³⁰ hath said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of⁴⁴⁸⁰ it, neither³⁸⁰⁸ shall ye touch⁵⁰⁶⁰ it, lest⁶⁴³⁵ ye die.⁴¹⁹¹ [/indent]

Edited by Matt Smith, 16 January 2008 - 08:14 PM.

[nightmare]

just a quick one where is this literal tree that can make you wise does it still exist scriptural

[Matt Smith]

Response 5

nightmare, on Jan 16 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

just a quick one where is this literal tree that can make you wise does it still exist scriptural

Hard to say, but I doubt it. The way to the garden was blocked by the cherubim, and several years later there was a flood (See Gen 3:24; 7:10)

[Matt Smith]

Have you had a chance to read Response 3 (post 13)?

[nightmare]

Where in Genesis do you find this in plain teaching
---This is in plain teaching or God is gentle but if you mean why didnt he make it easyer
God teaches like this Seeing you may not percieve and hearing but you do not understand

And yet there is no support for this in the Hebrew. You're grasping at straws
No throughout the bible God has used trees to describe men and im sure you know what im refering to

So, following your comment to its logical conclusion, despite the fact that God himself defines marriage as "a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family" (Gen 2:24 NET), you now have God condoning extra marital and homosexual affairs when he says "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

----Heck NO God said you can it from the trees "OF" the garden meaning what? Trees that come up out the garden apple trees orange trees plums you know literal fruit.

----Look at the wording here

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. This tree is in the garden but it is not of the garden in short this tree is of evil
----Lets be real of course God didnt condone this or he wouldnt have punished them

How would he know that God was meaning satan, when he used the common word for snake, and the common word for
tree? I think we just disagree on this one first off the word used is serpent not snake and tree as it is utilized when speaking of "the tree of knowledge" is 6096 `atseh aw-tseh' from 6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body):--backbone.

The spirit gifts are long gone, nightmare, but that's a discussion for another time
-----I posted this not to refer to spiritual gifts but so you would see Light and darkness which is to say Christ and Satan

If it's not there in the Hebrew or the English, you are reading into it your (already existing) beliefs. And that is the case as I have shown in Response 1.
----NO I am a seeker of truth, I believed what you believed once and was proved wrong and changed my thinking.
Now that door has been open in my mind that no one can close hopefully you will obtain the key of david.

[Matt Smith]

Response 6

nightmare, on Jan 17 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

Matt Smith said:

Where in Genesis do you find this in plain teaching

---This is in plain teaching or God is gentle but if you mean why didnt he make it easyer
God teaches like this Seeing you may not percieve and hearing but you do not understand

So, in plain language, it's not there.

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And yet there is no support for this in the Hebrew. You're grasping at straws

No throughout the bible God has used trees to describe men and im sure you know what im refering to

No, I have no idea what you are talking about.

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So, following your comment to its logical conclusion, despite the fact that God himself defines marriage as "a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family" (Gen 2:24 NET), you now have God condoning extra marital and homosexual affairs when he says "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

----Heck NO God said you can it from the trees "OF" the garden meaning what? Trees that come up out the garden apple trees orange trees plums you know literal fruit.

Now wait a minute. You just told me that "tree" actually means "man". And since the word used in Genesis 2:16 (ates) is exactly the same Hebrew word that is used in Genesis 3:2 & 3, both must mean exactly the same thing. Which is it? tree=tree or tree=man?

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----Look at the wording here

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. This tree is in the garden but it is not of the garden in short this tree is of evil
----Lets be real of course God didnt condone this or he wouldnt have punished them

Incorrect, nightmare.

Gen 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

There is nothing in this to suggest (even remotely) that it is "in the garden, but not of it". Nor is there any suggestion that it is evil. Even when you go back to Genesis 2:17, there is no indication that the tree is evil.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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How would he know that God was meaning satan, when he used the common word for snake, and the common word for
tree?

I think we just disagree on this one first off the word used is serpent not snake and tree as it is utilized when speaking of "the tree of knowledge" is 6096 `atseh aw-tseh' from 6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body):--backbone.

1. Serpent - Strong's - "nâchâsh From H5172; a snake (from its hiss)" - Used 1 other time in Genesis (49:17), and 25 times elsewhere in the OT.

2. Tree - This is the third time I've written this but, here goes. The word used in Genesis for tree/trees (ates) is consistantly the same. It's the same word as used in Genesis 1:11 where God creates them. It is the same word as used in Genesis 6 when referring to what Noah built the ark out of; it's the same word Abraham uses when speaks to the angels and offers them some shade (Genesis 18:4); it's the same word that is used for the wood for the offering of Isaac (Genesis 22). And the list goes on; 329 times in the OT. And the word is ates, Strong's number 6086.

[indent]Gen 3:1 Now the serpent⁵¹⁷⁵ was¹⁹⁶¹ more subtle⁶¹⁷⁵ than any^{4480, 3605} beast²⁴¹⁶ of the field⁷⁷⁰⁴ which⁸³⁴ the LORD³⁰⁶⁸ God⁴³⁰ had made.⁶²¹³ And he said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the woman,⁸⁰² Yea,^{637, 3588} hath God⁴³⁰ said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of every^{4480, 3605} tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden?¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:2 And the woman⁸⁰² said⁵⁵⁹ unto⁴¹³ the serpent,⁵¹⁷⁵ We may eat³⁹⁸ of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the trees⁶⁰⁸⁶ of the garden:¹⁵⁸⁸
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit^{4480, 6529} of the tree⁶⁰⁸⁶ which⁸³⁴ is in the midst⁸⁴³² of the garden,¹⁵⁸⁸ God⁴³⁰ hath said,⁵⁵⁹ Ye shall not³⁸⁰⁸ eat³⁹⁸ of⁴⁴⁸⁰ it, neither³⁸⁰⁸ shall ye touch⁵⁰⁶⁰ it, lest⁶⁴³⁵ ye die.⁴¹⁹¹ [/indent]

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The spirit gifts are long gone, nightmare, but that's a discussion for another time

-----I posted this not to refer to spiritual gifts but so you would see Light and darkness which is to say Christ and Satan

The passage you quoted is the separation of literal light and dark at Creation.

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If it's not there in the Hebrew or the English, you are reading into it your (already existing) beliefs. And that is the case as I have shown in Response 1.

----NO I am a seeker of truth, I believed what you believed once and was proved wrong and changed my thinking.
Now that door has been open in my mind that no one can close hopefully you will obtain the key of david.

I hope you will open your Bible and see what has been plainly written for us. It is essential to your salvation.

[nightmare]

The passage you quoted is the separation of literal light and dark at Creation.
what is dark creation? and it cant be literal light our literal lights come from the sun the moon and the stars and they have not been created yet so what is this light?

[Matt Smith]

nightmare, on Jan 17 2008, 01:51 PM, said:

The passage you quoted is the separation of literal light and dark at Creation.
what is dark creation? and it cant be literal light our literal lights come from the sun the moon and the stars and they have not been created yet so what is this light?

1 Timothy 6:16

But this is off-topic.

[Matt Smith]

Since things have gone quiet, let me summarise what has been discussed so far:

What nightmare believes Genesis 3 teaches	What Matt Smith believes Genesis 3 teaches
The serpent is satan	The serpent is a serpent
The trees of the garden are trees	The trees of the garden are trees
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is not a tree - it is satan	The tree of knowledge of good and evil is a tree
Partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is Adam and Eve were having sex with satan	Partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is Adam and Eve eating a fruit off a specific tree

If I have misrepresented anything here please let me know.

[nightmare]

pretty much thats correct

There is another word in this third verse we must understand, and it is the word "touch". God's command to Eve was; "neither shall ye touch it." In the Hebrew text the number for this word "touch" is # 5060 in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary. It reads; "Naga, neh-gah; a prime root, prop. to touch, i.e., lay the hand upon (for the purpose; euphemism, to lie with a woman), to reach, "

[nightmare]

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die'."

There is another word in this third verse we must understand, and it is the word "touch". God's command to Eve was; "neither shall ye touch it." In the Hebrew text the number for this word "touch" is # 5060 in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary. It reads; "Naga, neh-gah; a prime root, prop. to touch, i.e., lay the hand upon (for the purpose; euphemism, to lie with a woman), to reach, "
Anyway;
Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:"
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

-----Satan is the most beautiful created being that God ever created. Eve took of that fruit of Satan, which is another way of saying that she lost her virginity through the sex act, and Adam also played the game with Eve and Satan.
Genesis 3:7 "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves
a liar.
-----When you come to the understand of what took place in Eden, then you will understand the "parable of the sower and fig tree" which is the key to most of the prophecies of both the Old and New Testaments. To this day, fig leaves symbolize that which is hidden. That thing hidden within Eve's womb was an evil thing. It turned out to be Cain, who was the first murderer, because his father was a murderer and a liar.
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

Genesis 3:9 "And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?"

Genesis 3:10 "And he said, "I heard Thy voice in the garden and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

Genesis 3:11 "And He said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"

God Himself walked and talked with this first man of the Garden of Eden. Adam had the glory, and mercy of contact with almighty God. God loved Adam so much that He formed this special garden just for him and his wife Eve. The law that existed at that time consisted of only one thing; "Don't eat of that one tree". Don't mess around with Satan.

Satan knew God's plan, that the Christ would come through the womb of Eve, and Satan was out to destroy that plan of God's. Satan wanted to destroy the seed of the woman, meaning "Christ". Satan tried to see to it that the lineage of Christ would become polluted, and that the promised Messiah would be unable to give Himself for the perfect sacrifice, so that men and women could be brought back to the Father, our God.

We see in the sixth chapter that Satan tried again to destroy the plan of God, when he sent his fallen angels to destroy woman again. The results of that try by Satan was the creation of hybrids [the Nephilim, or Giants].

[Matt Smith]

Response 7

nightmare, on Jan 19 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

pretty much thats correct

Good.

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There is another word in this third verse we must understand, and it is the word "touch". God's command to Eve was; "neither shall ye touch it." In the Hebrew text the number for this word "touch" is # 5060 in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary. It reads; "Naga, neh-gah; a prime root, prop. to touch, i.e., lay the hand upon (for the purpose; euphemism, to lie with a woman), to reach, "

I guess you don't understand it. And let's quote Strong's in full:

A primitive root; properly to touch, that is, lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphemistically, to lie with a woman); by implication to reach (figuratively to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.)

It's primary meaning is to touch. The context tells us when it means something other than it's primary meaning, like in the case of Genesis 20:6.

Maybe a reminder of a simple principle.

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

Edited by Librarian, 18 March 2012 - 02:04 AM.

[Matt Smith]

Response 8

nightmare, on Jan 19 2008, 07:51 PM, said:

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die'."

There is another word in this third verse we must understand, and it is the word "touch". God's command to Eve was; "neither shall ye touch it." In the Hebrew text the number for this word "touch" is # 5060 in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary. It reads; "Naga, neh-gah; a prime root, prop. to touch, i.e., lay the hand upon (for the purpose; euphemism, to lie with a woman), to reach, "

See above post.

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Anyway;
Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:"
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

-----Satan is the most beautiful created being that God ever created.

Where do you get that from Genesis?

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Eve took of that fruit of Satan, which is another way of saying that she lost her virginity through the sex act, and Adam also played the game with Eve and Satan.

You still have yet to prove that.... In fact, as I have presented in my previous posts, this is completely unscriptural.

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Genesis 3:7 "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves
a liar.

Huh?

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-----When you come to the understand of what took place in Eden, then you will understand the "parable of the sower and fig tree" which is the key to most of the prophecies of both the Old and New Testaments.

You are jumping out of the designated area. Moses knows nothing of anything beyond Genesis yet...

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To this day, fig leaves symbolize that which is hidden.

Where? Wikipedia?

Stick with scripture and standard Bible reference books.

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That thing hidden within Eve's womb was an evil thing. It turned out to be Cain, who was the first murderer, because his father was a murderer and a liar.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain...

See the word "and". That's called a conjunction. In plain English (and Hebrew) it means that what follows is because of what just happened.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain...

Adam had sex with Eve, then she got pregnant, then she had Cain....

Cain is Adam's son.

Let's look at a newer translation to see if the KJV is correct....

[indent]Gen 4:1 Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. (NET)

Gen 4:1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. (NIV)

Gen 4:1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain (NASB)

Gen 4:1 The man had sexual relations with Havah his wife; she conceived, gave birth to Kayin... (The Complete Jewish Bible)[/indent]

My, look at that.... The KJV is right. Adam and Eve had sex, she got pregnant from that act and she gave birth to Cain.

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Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

Genesis 3:9 "And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?"

Genesis 3:10 "And he said, "I heard Thy voice in the garden and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

Genesis 3:11 "And He said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"

God Himself walked and talked with this first man of the Garden of Eden.

OK

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Adam had the glory, and mercy of contact with almighty God. God loved Adam so much that He formed this special garden just for him and his wife Eve. The law that existed at that time consisted of only one thing; "Don't eat of that one tree". Don't mess around with Satan.

They had one law... Don't eat of the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil. Period.

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Satan knew God's plan

Chapter and verse. And stick to Genesis.

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that the Christ would come through the womb of Eve, and Satan was out to destroy that plan of God's

Chapter and verse. And stick to Genesis.

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Satan wanted to destroy the seed of the woman, meaning "Christ".

Chapter and verse. And stick to Genesis.

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Satan tried to see to it that the lineage of Christ would become polluted, and that the promised Messiah would be unable to give Himself for the perfect sacrifice, so that men and women could be brought back to the Father, our God.

Chapter and verse. And stick to Genesis.

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We see in the sixth chapter that Satan tried again to destroy the plan of God, when he sent his fallen angels to destroy woman again. The results of that try by Satan was the creation of hybrids [the Nephilim, or Giants].

The Nephilim were before the "sons of God came in unto the daughters of men"....

Gen 6:4 There were giants (Hebrew: nephîyl - properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

No hybrids here...

Edited by Matt Smith, 21 January 2008 - 01:25 AM.

[nightmare]

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best
I hope this is not your format for life.
Simple does not =best

[nightmare]

My, look at that.... The KJV is right. Adam and Eve had sex, she got pregnant from that act and she gave birth to Cain.
------The Bible never says, not even one time that Cain is Adams son.
All you have to do is read the generatons of Adam --No Cain listed
You are assuming since Adam knew is wife and she bore Cain that means Cain is the son of Adam
not true. Adam knew is wife and she bore another mans baby or rather another angels baby.
Why do you think Eve said I have gotten a man from the Lord? something was'nt quit normal about Cain. But forget all that Cain is not in the generations of Adam because he is not Adams son as a matter of fact he has is own generation in chapther 4.
So lets here your explanation of why Cain is not listed in Chapter 5 generations of Adam.

[nightmare]

Genesis 3:12 "And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

Genesis 3:13 "And the Lord God said unto the woman, "What is this that thou hast done?" And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
BEGUILE=5377 nasha' naw-shaw' a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:--beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.
GREEK-1818. exapatao ex-ap-at-ah'-o from 1537 and 538; to seduce wholly:--beguile, deceive.
------I WILL EXPLAIN WHY I USED THE GREEK HERE LATER

Genesis 3:14 "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

------This is God speaking to Satan. God is cursing Satan above all living creatures. This is a figure of speech, meaning you are the lowest thing of all creation. Now God continues to speak to the serpent [Satan].

Genesis 3:15 "And I [God] will put enmity between thee [Satan] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed [the Kenites] and her Seed [Jesus Christ]; It [Christ] shall bruise thy [Satan's] head, and thou [Satan] shalt bruise His [Christ's] heel."

------- Now how can you honestly think were talking about a literal serpent. There is no enmity between
Christ and actual snakes, there is no enmity between mankind and snakes. A snake is like a whole bunch of other animals. If you get around his territory or make them angry or scare them they might bite you. Heck it seems there more enmity between man and pitbulls then snakes.

------Eve's seed is our Lord Jesus Christ. While Satan's seed are the children, to the last generation, called the Kenites. Those offspring are born from the sexual union between Eve and Satan [the serpent, and the tree of good and evil]. God is telling us that He will put trouble between Eve's children [through Adam and Seth], and Satan's offspring through Cain, called the Kenites.

-----It is Jesus Christ that shall bruise the head of Satan, at Christ's return at the second advent; while it was Satan's children the Kenites, [not brother Judah] that bruised the heel of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. This was done when the spikes were driven through Christ's heel, as He hung on the cross to pay the full price for our sins, once and for all.

------Most "men of God" acknowledge that Genesis 3:15 is talking about the death of Jesus Christ, when He was nailed to the cross for our sins. They recognize that "seed" is referring to the children of the woman "Eve", yet somehow they just want to spiritualize everything else that happened in the Garden of Eden between Eve and the two men [Satan and Adam]. The "seed" in the Hebrew is called "zirmah", and in the Greek it is "sperma". We in the English call it "sperm", and in Strongs Hebrew Dictionary # 2233; "Posterity, carnally, child, fruitful". Friend, it can't be any clearer. The seed of Satan's "posterity" are the "Kenites", while Adam's posterity is in Christ, and of the pure bloodline through Seth.

-----Until you understand what really took place in the Garden of Eden, and why; it will be difficult for you to grow up and mature in the Word of God, and in true Christianity.

Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Genesis 3:17 "And unto Adam He said, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it:' cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of of thy life;"

--------God reminded Adam that he partook of Satan also. Satan can appear to man in the flesh as he wishes to appear. God gave Adam and Eve only one law, and that was to stay away from Satan. When the sweat pours on your forehead, while painting, working the garden, or at work, you can thank father Adam.Genesis 3:18 "Thorns also and Thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the filed;"

-------Were to work by the sweat of our brow to feed our family.

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

------This verse paints a bleak picture for mankind, and the destination of the body that our soul is housed in, is the dust of the earth that it is made of.

Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

------Is this going against the idea of God creating all races on the sixth day of creation? Not at all. Satan knew it was through the womb of this woman Eve, and her daughters to come, that the Messiah would drive his [the devil's] head to the pit, and then to ashes; and destroy him. It was woman that Satan wanted to destroy. Therefore through Eve and her daughters down to Mary that would come "Christ."

------The word "living" here is looking forward to the Redeemer, Jesus Christ. For if you are not Christ's, then you are not in the "living", but in Satan. Satan is death. Only in Jesus Christ, and in His name can you or any one of any race have eternal life.

Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

-------God has given to cover them and protect them in the shame of their sin. Adam and Eve used fig leaves to hide their shame, however, here it is God that makes the sacrifice to cover the sin.


Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:-"

---------This is the documentation that the "Tree of Life" is Jesus Christ. The price that had to be paid first was Jesus Christ's death on the cross, then after the shedding of His blood, all mankind can take freely of Him and have eternal life. Only by the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His living as a man, then His sacrifice on the cross could eternal life be offered to man.

Genesis 3:23 "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

------------God's purpose for Adam, from the beginning was for Adam to till the ground [Genesis 2:5]. Because of Adam and Eves sin, God took them out of the paradise of Eden, and brought them to a place where he could not till the ground.

Genesis 3:24 "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."CHRIST

----------The "way" is the path that the Christ, the "Tree of Life", would come by. That path was through the womb of Eve, and her daughters down to Mary. It is the Cherubim's that would ultimately protect that way, with the "flaming sword" which is God's word, from the onslought of fallen angels, who came to earth to breed with woman, and destroy all woman's seed. This is what caused the flood of Noah's time, as God said in Genesis 6:7.