5 replies to this topic

[Dawn]

(Oopsy my typing is getting bad these days - if a mod could correct the typo in the title I would be grateful!)

I wondered if anyone with knowledge of Greek could help me please.

A Christian friend of mine has got involved with the "Ephraimites" (I think its a cult) and she sent me by email some notes of an Ephraimite teacher which has an unusual interpretation of 1 John 4:1-3 (though it seems wrong to me). But does anyone know if it is possible to translate these verses in this way - this is what he taught:

Quote

"There is an anointing of Messiah in me. What is the spirit of anti Messiah? 1 John 4 v 1-3. The anti-Messiah spirit denies that Yashuah has come in my flesh. It denies that Yashuah lives in me (2 Cor 13v5). Do we believe that Yashuah is in us, that we have been anointed with the spirit of Messiah? - anti-Messiah wants to take this out of us by giving us a spirit of unbelief...." Ephraim Frank

(As an aside - first, I don't know much about Ephraimitism, but my initial response is that it is a counterfeit house of Ephraim which is being put forward - and kind of "Euro-Israelitism" made up mainly of gentiles who have a love of Israel and think they could be Jewish. I think it has been going about 6 or 7 years. Second, from the other teaching notes my friend sent me, this man (who calls himself Ephraim - even though that's not his real name) seems to be a dualist. He's not full-blown dualism - but close to it, believing demons are "disembodied spirits" - to use his words).

However, I wondered if 1 John 4:1-3 could even remotely be translated as Christ coming in OUR flesh? Surely it's "THE flesh" (ie - human nature?). Any help appreciated as I hope to steer my friend away from this and I'd like to smash this view if it's wrong with some good concrete evidence is possible.

Edited by Matt Smith, 18 December 2007 - 10:31 PM.

[Fortigurn]

The proposed translation is utterly ridiculous. I don't know any reputable translation which would render the words that way.

[Dawn]

Thanks Fort (I missed your reply as it didn't flag up after the upgrade). I absolutely agree that his translation is utterly ridiculous, but I thought maybe this guy could be a Greek scholar or something and I wanted to be sure if we (Don and I) challenged his interpretation, we were correct.

I've just had a look at my Interlinear, and I'm none the wiser since I don't know Greek at all:

1Jo 4:2 Hereby <en> <hos> <touto> know ye <ginosko> the Spirit <pneuma> of God <theos>: Every <pas> spirit <pneuma> that confesseth <homologeo> that Jesus <Iesous> Christ <Christos> is come <erchomai> in <en> the flesh <sarx> is <esti> of <ek> God <theos>:

Does the term and grammar in "en sarx" emphatically mean "THE flesh". I do know that in Greek there are "emphatics"

[Jeremy]

Duplicated posts deleted.

[Clyde Fultz III]

Dawn, on Dec 18 2007, 03:26 PM, said:

(Oopsy my typing is getting bad these days - if a mod could correct the typo in the title I would be grateful!)

I wondered if anyone with knowledge of Greek could help me please.

A Christian friend of mine has got involved with the "Ephraimites" (I think its a cult) and she sent me by email some notes of an Ephraimite teacher which has an unusual interpretation of 1 John 4:1-3 (though it seems wrong to me). But does anyone know if it is possible to translate these verses in this way - this is what he taught:

Quote

"There is an anointing of Messiah in me. What is the spirit of anti Messiah? 1 John 4 v 1-3. The anti-Messiah spirit denies that Yashuah has come in my flesh. It denies that Yashuah lives in me (2 Cor 13v5). Do we believe that Yashuah is in us, that we have been anointed with the spirit of Messiah? - anti-Messiah wants to take this out of us by giving us a spirit of unbelief...." Ephraim Frank

(As an aside - first, I don't know much about Ephraimitism, but my initial response is that it is a counterfeit house of Ephraim which is being put forward - and kind of "Euro-Israelitism" made up mainly of gentiles who have a love of Israel and think they could be Jewish. I think it has been going about 6 or 7 years. Second, from the other teaching notes my friend sent me, this man (who calls himself Ephraim - even though that's not his real name) seems to be a dualist. He's not full-blown dualism - but close to it, believing demons are "disembodied spirits" - to use his words).

However, I wondered if 1 John 4:1-3 could even remotely be translated as Christ coming in OUR flesh? Surely it's "THE flesh" (ie - human nature?). Any help appreciated as I hope to steer my friend away from this and I'd like to smash this view if it's wrong with some good concrete evidence is possible.

Although it is a very strange translation of the definite article (the, this, that, etc and he,she,it), and only going by what I see here, I would conclude that he means, "in the form of my flesh", as opposed to, in the form of a spirit or animal or even a plant. But, by all means, he could be impling that he is of the Davidival linage and claiming to be a descendant of David, and therefore, a kinsman of Jesus and impling special hearkening unto. This conclusion comes from how Adam defined "my flesh" when Eve was taken from (a part of) him, when he said, "this is now bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh."
As pertaining to "disembodied spirits", keep this in mind, "no lie is of the truth". And as one bad apple does spoil the whole barrel, so does one lie spoil the whole theological discourse. Because one principle is built upon another, therefore, lies has been sent forth from the original lie. If I say that God loves me and does not want me to go to Hell because I am in His image, I lie. (notice the lie?)
If you wish to send more of their theological beliefs, I would gladly try to set the record straight.
yours in Christ
Clyde Fultz III

[Jim1]

(Greek NT - W-H ) 1 John 4:1 agaphtoi mh panti pneumati pisteuete alla dokimazete ta pneumata ei ek tou qeou estin oti polloi yeudoprofhtai exelhluqasin eiV ton kosmon 2 en toutw ginwskete to pneuma tou qeou pan pneuma o omologei ihsoun criston en sarki elhluqota ek tou qeou estin 3 kai pan pneuma o mh omologei ton ihsoun ek tou qeou ouk estin kai touto estin to tou anticristou o akhkoate oti ercetai kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh

4:1 Loved-ones, not every spirit you-must-believe, but you-must-test the spirits if out-of the God it-is, because many false-prophets they-have-come-out into the world. 2 In this you-know the Spirit of-the God. Every Spirit which it-agrees Jesus Christ in flesh having-come, out-of the God it-is, 3 and every spirit which not it-agrees the Jesus, out-of the God not it-is. And this it-is the of-the antichrist, which you-have-heard that it-comes, and now in the world it-is already.

(Greek NT - W-H ) 2 John 1:7 oti polloi planoi exhlqon eiV ton kosmon oi mh omologounteV ihsoun criston ercomenon en sarki outoV estin o planoV kai o anticristoV

1:7 Because many deceivers they-came-out into the world, who not agreeing Jesus Christ coming in flesh. This-one he-is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The phrase “en sarki” (in flesh) in the New Testament.

Romans 2:28, 8:8 and 8:9
2 Corinthians 10:3
Galatians 2:20 and 6:12
Ephesians 2:11
Philippians 1:22, 3:3 and 3:4
Colossians 2:1
1 Timothy 3:16
Philemon 1:16
1 Peter 4:2
1 John 4:2
2 John 1:7

(ASV) Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh.

(ASV) Romans 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(ASV) Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(ASV) 2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

(ASV) Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

(ASV) Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

(ASV) Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands.

(ASV) Philippians 1:22 But if to live in the flesh, this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not.

(ASV) Philippians 3:3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

(ASV) Philippians 3:4 though I myself might have confidence even in the flesh: if any other man thinketh to have confidence in the flesh, I yet more.

(ASV) Colossians 2:1 For I would have you know how greatly I strive for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh.

(ASV) 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

(ASV) Philemon 1:16 no longer as a servant, but more than a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much rather to thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

(ASV) 1 Peter 4:2 that ye no longer should live the rest of your time in flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

(ASV) 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

(ASV) 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The phrase “in flesh” (en sarki) is used in a variety of ways, depending on the context. It is often used adverbially to describe the manner (meaning physically) in which a thing happens or is true.

In Ephesians 2:11, the believers at Ephesus are Gentiles in flesh, meaning that they are physically Gentiles, and the Jews are circumcised in flesh, meaning that they are physically circumcised.

Likewise, in 1 John 4:2 and 2 John 1:7, Christ has come in flesh, meaning that He has come physically.

As John says in John 1:14 (ASV), “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

As John says in 1 John 1:1-3 (ASV), “That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life—2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and declare unto you the life, the eternal, which was with the Father and was manifested unto us—3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us. Yea, and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

In contrast to this, Paul speaks of the Spirit of Christ being in the one who believes in Him in Romans 8:9-11 and Ephesians 3:17.

(ASV) Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ... 15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(ASV) Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

(ASV) Ephesians 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love.