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#61 nsr

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:59 PM

I was in jest, hence the smiley. That was when I first started looking at Revelation.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#62 daysha

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:16 AM

The preacher in the video clip says that 666 refers to the Muslim system. What do you think of that idea?

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By the way, I've heard it said that Mohammed was brought up in a Catholic family.
Is that correct? sounds totally unbelievable to me!

#63 Fortigurn

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:34 AM

He's completely wrong. There's nothing whatever in the context to suggest this.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#64 Evangelion

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:47 AM

The pastor refers to the Greek symbols as "Kai, Psi and Stigma"!

:parakaleo:
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
Imago
Credo

#65 Fortigurn

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:57 AM

The pastor refers to the Greek symbols as "Kai, Psi and Stigma"!

:parakaleo:


Confusing the final sigma in the text with a final stigma is a surprisingly common mistake.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#66 daysha

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:14 AM

Maybe they're thinking of the stigmata ? :parakaleo:

#67 Fortigurn

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:27 AM

Maybe he's not thinking very much at all.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#68 daysha

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:53 AM

:parakaleo:

#69 Richie

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 03:15 AM

Maybe he subscribed to Logos.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#70 daysha

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 06:29 AM

because he needs origami paper.

#71 Lectron

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:41 PM

The pastor refers to the Greek symbols as "Kai, Psi and Stigma"!

:parakaleo:


No, be fair - he said Chi, Xi, and stigma. Don't forget that Ch is 'hard' as in Chronology, and Xi is 'soft' as in sigh
It's not stigma its sigma - that is wrong

His representation of Chi as the crossed swords is quite wrong with both 'handles' on one line in the script and the other without a handle - plus - Arabic swords always have a curve.

Another crackpot idea to sell books - Islam the current flavour of the month for a world wide beast.

There have been many other candidates

Edited by Lectron, 28 August 2010 - 11:52 PM.

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#72 Lectron

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:19 AM

to indulge those attracted by the idea of the beast as Islam how about this link?

While many of his statements are indeed very disturbing, I have the feeling that this sermon has been sown together from a longer speech or even a number of 'sermons'

....by grace you are saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are
his
workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works
....


#73 Chrlsp

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:51 PM

I've just read through this entire topic. I agree with those who have difficulty with using gematria as a way of interpreting 666. First, there is no Biblical evidence that would lead us to use gematria and second there are simply way too many possible conclusions.

Those who see the use of gematia as a problem have looked instead for some Biblical reference of the number 666. Two references were then submitted.

1) Is the reference of the weight of gold (666 talents) that came to Solomon and...
2) The children of Adonikam 666 in number.

I think the weight of gold, or gold itself, as being the reference we should examine takes the passages in Revelation way out of thier context. me thinks.

But what about the reference to the children of Adonikam? I haven't read anything in this topic which considers this reference as important.

I find it important, and i'll tell you why.

The number of the children of Adonikam is how many? 666

That's right, 666 is the NUMBER of his NAME. It doesn't matter whether the NUMBER of his NAME is 666 or 667...Get it?

666 was the number of children under the name of Adonikam.

So, 666 is the number of persons under the name the name of the beast. THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME.

In other words, just as the number of children under the name of Adonikam was 666 or 667 so the number of "children" who have the mark or name or number of the beast is 666 "children".


Further reference to this type of language is :

Numbers 3:40-43


And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names.
And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel. And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.
And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen

Edited by Chrlsp, 24 March 2012 - 03:54 PM.


#74 Biblaridion

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:45 AM

Hello,

The number.. 666 stands in the first instance for Nero and generically for apostasy (i.e., Solomon). Nero persecuted the first century church but evidence suggests that Judaists had a hand in suggesting the Christians as a scapegoat to Nero. The man child is then the persecuted church under the Roman empire and the "beast" in this instance is Nero. I have attached a version of an article that I wrote for the ejournal.

Regards,

Paul

Attached Files



#75 Biblaridion

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:22 AM

Hello,

J.A.T. Robinson comments (Redating the NT, 1976, reprint 1993 XPRESS, p.235-6 including footnotes);

The reference to Nero, who killed himself by his own sword, is further confirmed by the fact (strangely ignored by commentators) that Suetonius cites a parallel puzzle based on the aggregate of the letters in Greek (1005), as current in Nero’s own lifetime:

Count the numerical values

Of the letters in Nero’s name,

And in ‘murdered his own mother’:

You will find that their sum is the same.[1]


This strongly suggests that Rev.13.8 is the Christian version of a familiar game.[2]

Further, for the naming of Nero as ‘the beast’ there is the interesting parallel, quoted by Edmundson[3], from Philostratus’ Apollonius of Tyana. Apollonius is represented as saying on his arrival in Rome at that time:

In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. However, they say it is a civil beast, and inhabits in the midst of cities; but to this extent it is more savage than the beasts of mountain or forest, that whereas lions and panthers can sometimes by flattery be tamed and change their disposition, stroking and petting this beast does but instigate it to surpass itself in ferocity and devour at large. And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mothers, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet.[4]



[1] Nero 39;tr. R. Graves, The Twelve Caesars, 1962

[2] Cf. also Orac. Sib.1.324-31, where the numerical value of the name VIhsou/j (Jesus in Greek) is given in contrast as 888. These parallels must count against the argument of Reicke, ‘Die jüdische Apocalyptic und die johanneische Tiervsion’, RSR 60, 1972, 173-92 (especially 189-91), that the solution lies not in the gematria (the numerical value of the letters) but in the properties of the ‘triangular’ number 666 (= 1+2+3….36 = 6x6). But the pinning of this mysterious number of evil on Nero (with which Reicke agrees) can only be achieved by showing that it is also the sum of the letters in his name.

[3] Op., cit., 173.

[4] Vit. Apol.4.38; tr. J.S. Phillimore, Oxford 1912, II, 38

#76 Biblaridion

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

Hello,

Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. offers a very clear explanation of the cryptogramic spelling of "Nrwn Qsr" (Nero Casear) - - the cipher has been confirmed by the spelling of Neo's name in the Murabba'at document from Qumran. Gentry also explains how the textual variant 616 is the numerical value of "Nero Casear" when spelled in Hebrew that has been transliterated from its Latin spelling.

I cannot replicate the Greek and Hebrew in this post but refer to pages 199-203 in "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Gentry (1998).........Gentry argues for the pre-70 composition of Revelation (I agree with this).


Paul

#77 nsr

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

I've heard so many suggestions of what 666 means, and never found any of them convincing. It's probably much wiser to work on the context surrounding it first.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#78 Chrlsp

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:33 PM

When Moses was told to number all the firstborn males he was to "take the number of their names". How did he come up with the total number of firstborn males unless their number was counted?

"take the number of their names" was a count. In other words, they were to count the number of their names. Where they to use gematria? I think not, the number of their names was twenty two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

That's how many firstborn males there were of the children of Israel.

Why all the mysticism with the use of specific names?

The "number of his name" is a count of those who worship the name of the beast.

The "name" specifies doctrine of idolatrous worship.

And the number 666 is either a number which represents all those who worship the image of the beast or those who minister to cause the worship of the image.

Edited by Chrlsp, 27 March 2012 - 04:39 PM.


#79 Biblaridion

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:41 AM

Hello,

It is not complicated...........keep it simple..........the number/name of the beast is meant to contrast with the number/name of the Father:

NKJ Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

NKJ Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

The name of Jesus is theophoric.........it means Yah saves........the value of the name is 888 (see note 2 on previous posts).........it is the number of a man (Jesus), similarly, the number of Nero Caesar is 666. Man was created on the 6th day......Nero is an archetype........he represents rebellion against God. Solomon apostatised and his revenue was 666 talents of gold. Therefore the number 666 represents man in all his "glory" (sic)......in the first century this was Nero who persecuted the church.......Nero had Paul and Peter murdered and threw the Christians to the lions. He even used some of the Christians as garden lights for his parties by dipping them in tar....

Nero committed incest with his mother and later tried to murder her. He kicked his mistress Poppea to death in a fit of rage (she was pregnant). He regretted this so he found a slave (a young boy) who looked like her, he had him castrated.....and the young slave boy became his catamite.

Such was the persecution of Nero against the Christians (who were not well liked because they opposed the "old gods") that ordinary Roman citizens began to take pity on them.

Nero blamed the Christians for the great fire of Rome and used it as an excuse to persecute them. The citizens of Rome suspected that Nero had deliberately set the fire because he had a pet project to rebuild Rome. Nero thought of himself as a great artist.......he was a typical narcissist and quite mad. So in order to divert attention away from himself he blamed the Christians.

How did Nero get the idea? The Christians were still an insignificant sect. I believe it was his mistress (the one he later kicked to death).....Josephus notes that she was a convert to Judaism. At the time Nero held certain temple officials hostage for political reasons (I think one was the temple treasurer)......they obviously influenced his mistress and it is not difficult to envisage that they planted the idea.....they hated the Christians especially because....Jesus.....Stephen.....and the book of Revelation predicts the destruction of the temple and judgment of the Jewish nation.

If my suggestion is correct then we have a gentile Nero in collusion with the Jews persecuting the church. This is similar to the crucifixion of the Lord when Rome/Jerusalem colluded to put him to death.

NKJ Revelation 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


Paul

#80 Biblaridion

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:36 AM

Hello,

Peter warned against Nero.....he added this as an addendum to his epistle..........the persecution had just begun........

NKJ 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Yes, Nero was a "devil" ...............evil and quite mad.......

NKJ Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."


Indeed, the "devil" had a short time.........Nero comitted suicide, Rome was fractured by a civil war in 69 and Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70


Paul

#81 nsr

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:59 AM

Chrlsp, I find your suggestion interesting. I don't have time to fully consider it right now, but I will try to when I have a chance. At first glance it looks more convincing than any other theory I've heard.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#82 Biblaridion

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:08 AM

Chrlsp, I find your suggestion interesting. I don't have time to fully consider it right now, but I will try to when I have a chance. At first glance it looks more convincing than any other theory I've heard.



Really?

I suppose it is if you ignore the evidence. :cry2:

Then again I have had many dealings with all sorts of denominations (JW's come to mind) and I realise that you can show all the right passages, employ intertextuality, demonstrate the historical and social context etc, etc and they still refuse to understand.

This has often perplexed me (I have changed my mind many times). I find that they cannot provide credible counter arguments in the end I came to the conclusion that they (I use the JW's as an example but this could apply to any religion) were not interested in being intellectually honest......they were not even really intrested in truth.....(the Jews had the same mindset eventhough the truth could set them free).

Sometimes it can be painful to admit that we are wrong (I know as I have had to do it many times) but it is the only way we can learn and progress.

#83 Biblaridion

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:28 PM

Hello,

Just re-read Fortigurn's posts......he is spot on when he points to the first century use of gematria.......and the fact that it refers to a man. Of course we may debate who that man might be........but there are no first century candidates who fit the bill........other than Nero Casear

The evidence is the value of his name 666 and the fact that the textual variant 616 also points to him

Edited by Biblaridion, 28 March 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#84 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

Hello,

Just re-read Fortigurn's posts......he is spot on when he points to the first century use of gematria.......and the fact that it refers to a man. Of course we may debate who that man might be........but there are no first century candidates who fits the bill........other than Nero Casear

The evidence is the value of his name 666 and the fact that the textual variant 616 also points to him


What Biblical evidence or witness do you have to support the use of gematria for "count the number of his name"? NONE, ZERO, ZILTCH!

I have provided just one example (witness), of which there are many, as to what "count the number of his name" means Biblically. it means to "take the number" or physically count the number.

But yet YOU refuse to acknowledge that this IS the Biblical language. Instead you refer to some mystical system of numbering called gemartia that has no support except what you and others have promoted by it.

You said: "but there are no first century candidates who fits the bill..." Who says "that man" must be a first century candidate?

Edited by Chrlsp, 28 March 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#85 Mark Taunton

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:59 PM

NONE, ZERO, ZILTCH!

But yet YOU refuse to acknowledge that this IS the Biblical language.


Chrlsp, a gentle request: please go easier in the way you write. "Shouting", as this might be perceived, does nothing to convince others of the correctness of your own view, and instead raises the temperature. This is a "discussion" forum, not an "argument" forum. :)

Edited by Mark Taunton, 28 March 2012 - 01:00 PM.


#86 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:32 PM


NONE, ZERO, ZILTCH!

But yet YOU refuse to acknowledge that this IS the Biblical language.


Chrlsp, a gentle request: please go easier in the way you write. "Shouting", as this might be perceived, does nothing to convince others of the correctness of your own view, and instead raises the temperature. This is a "discussion" forum, not an "argument" forum. :)


You're right. Even when you "shout" many people still can't hear. Actually, Biblaridion makes me laugh. He says that JW's for example "show all the right passages, employ intertextuality, demonstrate the historical and social context etc, etc and they still refuse to understand."

Then he says: "not interested in being intellectually honest......they were not even really intrested in truth....."

But yet he goes outside of Scripture and implies that he is being intellectually honest and interested in truth. So, I think he is the one who is not being intellectually honest or interested in truth because God's word is truth.

Gemartia is not taught in Scripture nor was it used to "count the number" of anything. But yet he claims for himself that this is how we are to "count the number".

It's one thing to come to a conclusion based on the text, but quite another to completely ignore the text and come to your own conclusion.

Edited by Chrlsp, 28 March 2012 - 01:34 PM.


#87 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:18 PM

There is one other occurrence of the greek word "psēphizō" in the N.T. which is translated as "count":

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?" (luke 14:28)

This is a parable which speaks of building a tower. The idea is that if you decide to build a tower you first sit down and "count the cost". You consider all the things that are involved with building a tower. Perhaps you make a mental or physical list of those things needed.

1) money
2) land
3) material for the foundation
4) bricks or stones for the walls...etc.

The idea is that you would not use "gematia" to "count the cost" but instead consider all the things needed to build the tower.

Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
2) to give one’s vote by casting a pebble into the urn
3) to decide by voting

verb

Edited by Chrlsp, 28 March 2012 - 02:20 PM.


#88 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:37 PM

Continued:

Lets consider what "number" means. "count the number", "it is the number of a man"

arithmos

Total KJV Occurrences:
18
number, 18

Luke 22:3, John 6:10, Acts 4:4, Acts 5:36, Acts 6:7, Acts 11:21, Acts 16:5, Rom 9:27, Rev 5:11, Rev 7:4, Rev 13:16-18 (6), Rev 15:2, Rev 20:8

Edited by Chrlsp, 28 March 2012 - 02:40 PM.


#89 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

Got the urge to flood this board some more.

Jesus is a man, what's the number of his name?

Some suggest it's 888......uhhhhh, really now!

I think not. The number of his name was the number of his disciples who went around and preached in his name. The number of his name when referring to his apostles was 12.

To be baptized in Christ's name is to be a number of his name or numbered with those of his name.

Has nothing to do with gemartia.

#90 Chrlsp

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 06:15 PM

I'm not pointing a finger directly at Biblaridion for his extra- Biblical reasoning by the use of gematia. It is what all continuist-historist must do in order to "prove" their theories.

They get led astray by some idea, thing or event then they gather all their extra-Biblical information and read it into the Scriptures. To be a continuist-historist this is a requirement, a must!

When were we to stop searching the Scripture for truth?

After A.D. 70?

Edited by Chrlsp, 28 March 2012 - 06:16 PM.





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