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Science Leads to ISLAM


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#1 The Submitter

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:10 PM

Origin of The Universe

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’

Posted Image
Figure 1: A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the ‘smoke’ that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, p. 50.)



Posted Image
Figure 2: The Lagoon nebula is a cloud of gas and dust, about 60 light years in diameter. It is excited by the ultraviolet radiation of the hot stars that have recently formed within its bulk. (Horizons, Exploring the Universe, Seeds, plate 9, from Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.)



The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

“Then He (Allah) turned to the heaven when it was smoke...” (Quran 41:11)

Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We (Allah) separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here http://www.islamreli...o/kroner-1.ram). Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment http://www.islamreli...o/kroner-2.ram).

#2 Chris

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:48 PM

"Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case."


Muhammad had exposure to the Jewish scriptures didn't he?

#3 Fortigurn

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 02:35 PM

Science and Islam. More here and here.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#4 The Submitter

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:09 PM

"Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case."


Muhammad had exposure to the Jewish scriptures didn't he?


Of course not.

Are you trying to refer to a fabricated book (Bible OT & NT) that contradicts the basic facts of Science and contains this for example:

The Earth has Four corners !!!!!!

[Revelation 7:1] After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

Or this:

"For vain men would be wise, though man be born like a wild as s's colt." [Job 11:12].

OR this:

Deuteronomy 25: 11-12
25:11
"When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts,
25:12
then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity.



You really believe this is the Word of God?

Edited by The Submitter, 25 October 2007 - 11:18 PM.


#5 The Submitter

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 11:21 PM

Prominent Scientists Testify To Scientific Facts in Quran


Watch them here: YouTube - Prominent Scientists Testify To Scientific Facts in Quran

These are short parts of many interviews with the Prominent Scientists in the Tv-Program (it is the Truth) which organized by the World Organization of scientific miracles in the Quran, which was broadcast on the Qatari- television for more than three consecutive hours..

This Program was made during the Eighth international Medical Conference in Saudi Arabia and other scientific Conferences at that Time.

The Scientists who were interviewed during this conference are:

1) professeur keith Moore (USA)
is an eminent specialist in world fame in surgery and embryology. this professor wrote live named (the human development). this book was considered as a best work in the world, written by only one author.

2) Professeur Van Bersoud (canada)
is a professor of anatomy, pediatry, and obstetrics-gynaecology and sciences of the reproduction at the university Manitoba in Canada. He was there the president of the Department of anatomy during 16 years. He is very recognized in its field. He is the author or the editor of 22 handbooks and he published more than 181 scientific articles. In 1991, he received price more distinguished allotted in the field of the anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B., Great Price of the Canadian Association of the anatomists.

3) Professeur Joe Leigh Simpson (USA)
is a president of the Department of obstetrics-gynaecology, professor of obstetrics-gynaecology, and professor of human and molecular genetics in Baylor College of Medicine, in Houston, Texas, the United States.

4) Professor Marshal Jhonson
is a professor highly skilled of anatomy and biology related to the development at the university Thomas Jefferson on Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the United States.

5) Professeur Gérald C (USA)
is a director of program and lecturer of medical embryology at the cellular Department of biology of the Medical school from the Georgetown University in Washington, the United States.

6) Professeur Youchedi Kuzane (Japan)
is a professor highly skilled at the University of Tokyo with Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and he was already a director of the national astronomical Observatory with Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan.

7) Professeur Tejatat Tejasen (Thailand)
is president of Autopsy Department in the University Chiang Mai in Thailand.. he was a senior of the Faculty of Medicine of the same university.
He embraced islam after reading the Quran

8) Professor William W. Hay (USA)
is a very known maritime scientist. He is a professor of geological sciences at the University of Colorado with Boulder, Colorado, the United States. Previously, he was the senior of Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University from Miami in Miami, Florida, the United States.

9) Professor Alfred kroner (Germany)
is one of the world`s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany.

Edited by The Submitter, 25 October 2007 - 11:26 PM.


#6 Chris

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 12:45 AM

Of course not.

Are you trying to refer to a fabricated book (Bible OT & NT) that contradicts the basic facts of Science and contains this for example

The Earth has Four corners !!!!!!

[Revelation 7:1] After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.


Revelation is a book of prophecy by its own admission --

Blessed is he who reads and blessed are those who listen to the words of this prophecy and lay to heart what is written in it; for the time for its fulfillment is now close at hand.
~ R
evelation 1:3

Sign and symbol are the makeup of the book. It is not to be interpreted in a literal context.


Let's try this one....

21 Do you not know? Do you not hear?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

23 who brings princes to nothing,
and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.
~Isaiah 40:21-22

How is it, do you suppose, that Isaiah understood the shape of the earth? Good guess maybe?



Or this:

"For vain men would be wise, though man be born like a wild as s's colt." [Job 11:12].


You've misinterpreted the context of this verse. Let's look at the NASB --

And an idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man

Care to take another stab at the meaning of this passage? Of course, this is the book of Job; and in paricular with this verse, a man speaking. That's all. If you understood the context and the genre of the book you'd be better equipped to debate its supposed fallacies.



Deuteronomy 25: 11-12
25:11
"When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts,
25:12
then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity.


Again, a better understanding of the context of this passage as well as the Mosaic Law is imperative. However, if one simply references some kind of anti-Bible and/or pro-Islam material and basically cut/paste these half-hearted "proofs", trying to understand the Bible is not the intent.

You really believe this is the Word of God?


Absolutely.

Edited by TwoPutt, 26 October 2007 - 12:46 AM.


#7 Fortigurn

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 12:53 AM

Prominent Scientists Testify To Scientific Facts in Quran


I'll respond to this when you give any indication of having read the links I provided which already deal with these claims.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#8 StElsewhere

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 03:44 AM

Origin of The Universe

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’

Posted Image
Figure 1: A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the ‘smoke’ that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, p. 50.)



Posted Image
Figure 2: The Lagoon nebula is a cloud of gas and dust, about 60 light years in diameter. It is excited by the ultraviolet radiation of the hot stars that have recently formed within its bulk. (Horizons, Exploring the Universe, Seeds, plate 9, from Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.)



The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

“Then He (Allah) turned to the heaven when it was smoke...” (Quran 41:11)

Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We (Allah) separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here http://www.islamreli...o/kroner-1.ram). Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment http://www.islamreli...o/kroner-2.ram).

God said...and it was... He didn't need smoke or mirrors... His word alone was sufficient...Jesus Christ is God!

:sarah:

#9 Jeremy

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 08:25 AM

The Earth has Four corners !!!!!!

[Revelation 7:1] After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

"The four corners of the earth" is a figure of speech we use even today. It's no more inaccurate than saying the sun is "rising" (when it's actually staying put).

Or this:

"For vain men would be wise, though man be born like a wild as s's colt." [Job 11:12].

Do you know what "irony" means? Go and check a more recent translation: it's saying Job will talk sense when donkeys give birth to men (i.e., never, in the speaker's opinion). It's like us saying "when Hell freezes over".

OR this:

Deuteronomy 25: 11-12
25:11
"When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts,
25:12
then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity.



You really believe this is the Word of God?

Why not? I know Muslims have a problem with sex, but what exactly is the difficulty here? God is restricting the ways in which the Israelites could act in self-defence.

Would appreciate answers to my earlier questions in the other thread before you ask any more of your own, please.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#10 Jeremy

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 08:26 AM

I'll respond to this when you give any indication of having read the links I provided which already deal with these claims.

You'll have to join the queue. :sarah:
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#11 John the Bearded

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 07:04 PM

When it Was Smoke
The question of whether the Qur'an contains scientific miracles is one of the staples of Muslim dawists (the Muslim equivalent of missionaries). The method is to find some word in the Qur'an which appears to fit in with a modern scientific theory and then to assert that the Qur'an is marvellous because it has predicted these theories long before they could have been known.

It all looks very impressive until one runs across someone who knows some real science and a bit of history. Then one finds that all the examples one finds fits into one of these categories:-
  • The word in the Qur'an (and the examples usually hang on only one word {eg smoke in the example above}) has been misinterpreted and doesn't really mean what the Muslim missionaries claim.
  • The science has been misunderstood and doesn't really support the ideas claimed by the Muslim missionaries.
  • The science was well known at the time of Muhammad or before.
Some of the attempts to claim a scientific miracle fall into more than one of these cases.

The example of "When it was Smoke" really falls into the second category.

When it was Smoke

Then He (Allah) turned to the heaven when it was smoke...” (Quran 41:11)

Muslims quote this passage and compare it with theories of the origin of the universe. These theories are usually expressed by the Muslim apologist as indicating that the Universe began as a gas and that some of it then condensed into the liquid and solid matter we see on earth. They then argue that the writers of the Qur'an could not have known these theories and thus that the Qur'an contains a scientific miracle.

The problem arises when one looks at the science of the origins of the Universe and the composition of smoke. Smoke is a suspension of solid particles in a gas. In reality the theories don't say that the Universe was ever made of smoke. According to the theories the universe begins as pure energy (an electroweak field). As it expands it cools down and elementary particles begin to form, which after a while condense into a plasma. Later still the universe cools down even more and gas forms, followed in time by liquids and solids until the universe has much the form it has now, a mixture of vacuum, plasma, gas and solid or liquid objects in localised places.

At no point in this sequence is the Universe a suspension of solid particles in gas. There has never been a point where the universe was made of smoke.

The nebulae seen in Submitter's posting are mixtures of gas and plasma illuminated by stars; they are not smoke. In any case they don't make up the entire universe, which is what this passage of the Qur'an would seem to imply.

In fact there is a little deception going on in the way that the passage is quoted. The full passage is thus:-

Say: "Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10 He set on the [earth] mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with [the needs of] those who seek [sustenance].
11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been [as] smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come [together], in willing obedience."
12 So he completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and [provided it] with guard. Such is the Decree of [Him] the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
(Q41:9-12 Yusuf Ali translation)

This is something of a problem for Muslims as it gives a sequence in which God makes the earth in two days. He then puts mountains and various creatures on the earth, taking four days to do so. Finally he erects the sky over it all, starting off with it made of smoke but then forming it into seven heavens. He takes two further days to do this. The total time taken is eight days, and the universe has a structure which matches that believed by many mediaeval scholars at the time of Muhammad (although some knew better - eg. Eratosthenes in about 200BC).

The passage also goes on to throw doubt on the claim of Muslims that the Qur'an predicts the idea that the universe is expanding in passages where it says that God made it by pulling it apart. In this passage we find that God makes the universe by pulling it together, the opposite of what the Muslim apologists require.

Scientific Problems in the Qur'an
So far I haven't found any statement in the Qur'an that can be said to be scientifically accurate and unknown before the time of Muhammad. However, there are quite a few scientific errors in the Qur'an. Here are just a couple:-

There is not an animal [that lives] on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but [forms part of] communities like you. (Q 6:38)

This passage claims that all animals live in communities. In fact there are many solitary animals. Cheetahs, for example, live solitary lives once they leave their mother, and there are some spiders so solitary that the female eats the male after mating.

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: (Q18:86)

This is the story of Zul-Qarnain, probably Alexander the Great, who is said to have reached the place where the sun sets, and found that it did so in a pool of water. This was a theory among Arabs in and before the early times of Islam, but it is known to be completely false nowadays.

conclusion
The problem is that the Qur'an doesn't actually contain any scientific miracles at all. On the contrary it supports a cosmology which was out of date even in the time of Muhammad (and even more now).

It also contains other scientific errors. These are not matters of figures of speech (such as the "four corners of the earth" example); they are absolutely specific. The only conclusion that one can draw is either that the Qur'an was never the Word of God, or that it has been altered out of all recognition since it was written. Which one is the case?

Yours

John the Bearded.

#12 The Submitter

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 11:25 PM

The Expansion of the Universe


In the Quran, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this in the Quran:

( And it is We (Allah) who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (Quran: Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)

The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur’an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Quran, it is communicated that the universe 'expands'.

And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time. The research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology, however, revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly expands.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.

This fact was proved also by observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from each other implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe constantly expands. This fact was explained in the Quran when it was yet unknown by anyone. This is because the Qur’an is the word of God, the Creator, and the Ruler of the entire universe.

Edited by The Submitter, 29 October 2007 - 12:26 AM.


#13 The Submitter

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 11:47 PM

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development


In the Holy Quran, Allah (God) speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development:

"And indeed We (Allah) created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into alaqah (leech, and blood clot) (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the alaqah (clot) into a mudghah (a little chewed substance: a little lump of flesh), then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So Blessed is Allah, the Best of creators. " (Quran 23:12-14)

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.

In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two2 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.3

Posted Image
Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)


The second meaning of the word alaqah is 'suspended thing'. This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

Posted Image
Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

Posted Image
Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)

The third meaning of the word alaqah is 'blood clot'. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage4 (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week.5 Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.

Posted Image
Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)


So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means 'chewed substance'. If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that 'somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance'.6 (see figures 5 and 6).


Posted Image
Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)

Posted Image
Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.


View this sicentific video showing how The wrapping of muscles over bones, click here


How could Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad ). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.7

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore 8 is one of the world's most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God."9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here ).

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: "Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?" He replied: "I find no difficulty in accepting this."10

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: "....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad's companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training."11 (View the RealPlayer video of this comment here).



Footnotes:
(1) Please note that what is between these special brackets ... in this web site is only a translation of the meaning of the Quran. It is not the Quran itself, which is in Arabic.

(2) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.

(3) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 36.

(4) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, pp. 37-38.

(5) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 65.

(6) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.

(7) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 9.

(8) Note: The occupations of all the scientists mentioned in this web site were last updated in 1997.

(9) The reference for this saying is This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy of this videotape, please visit this page.

(10) This is the Truth (videotape).

(11) This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy, see footnote no. 9.

Edited by The Submitter, 29 October 2007 - 12:23 AM.


#14 Fortigurn

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 12:47 AM

The Submitter, you are simply repeating yourself. The arguments you present here have already been addressed. Please deal with the posts which address these arguments of yours. For example, the Quran says 'We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh'. But in human development the bones do not precede the flesh, nor are they made out of flesh.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#15 John the Bearded

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 01:06 AM

I have very little time now to reply to your latest two postings (especially as my computer has just lost the rather longer posting that I had just completed). I will possibly try to fill in a bit more detail later if I have time (God willing).

The last two postings are standard examples of alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an. In fact the descriptions of them are defective and I will try to summarise why in detail later on (God willing). As a general point, it is worth pondering these two questions:-
  • If the Qur'an contains clear descriptions of scientific facts unknown to everyone else until modern times, then why did no Islamic scholar notice these descriptions and produce an account before the facts were discovered by non-Muslim scholars in the modern world?
  • The alleged miracles usually turn on a rather hopeful meaning of a single word. When one looks at the general picture given by extended passages of the Qur'an (such as Q41:9-12 which I posted earlier one finds a positively mediaeval picture of the world. Why is the plain meaning of the Qur'an so much at odds with the apparently hidden meanings discoverse by modern Muslim apologists?
The Expansion of the Universe
There is no real doubt that the universe is expanding. However, the idea that the Qur'an teaches this depends on the interpretation of a word which is usually translated as "stretched out", the idea being that God spread out the sky over the earth like tent fabric over the tent poles. The passage you quote (Q51:47,48) is variously translated as follows:-

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace. And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! (Yusuf Ali)

We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof). And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)! (Pickthal)

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample. And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out. (Shakir)


Notice that if one looks at the general account of the passage, rather than ignoring most of it and simply taking one word out of context, it is the earth that is expanded, not the heavens. The idea of the expansion of the heavens contradicts Q41:11 - cited in my posting above - which says that God drew the heavens and the earth together.

Embryology
This one is an old chestunt which is brough up from time to time. There are two problems with it. One of these is that it is scientifically inaccurate, and the other is that it is almost identical to the stages in the development of the embryo written by Hippocrates (4th century BC) and Galen (3rd century AD) both of whom wrote well before the time of Muhammad and both of whose writings were well known even in Arabia as they formed the basis of mediaeval medicine.

The scientific problem is that Q23:14 describes one of the earliest stages of human development as a clot of blood. Here are three translations of the passage from Surat al-Mumenun:-

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! (Yusuf Ali)

Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! (Pickthal)

Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. (Shakir)


The problem is that a clot of blood is made up from blood (not surprisingly). In reality, however, the embryo contains no blood at this point. It cannot in reality be described as a clot, although Galen did (incorrectly) describe it as such.

Futhermore, the passage in the Qur'an asserts that the bones are made first and then clothed in flesh (following the teaching of Hippocrates). This is incorrect. The embryo develops for some time without bones, having only flesh; bones are then formed within it.

Conclusion
It is difficult to blame the early Muslims for these mistakes; they were following the best scientific theories of their time. However, we now know that these theories are incorrect, and the Qur'an is in error along with them.

The Bible contains very few scientific observations of any kind; it mentions that the earth is round and that it hangs on nothing, and it remarks on the fact that animals breed true to species, but apart from this there is little in the way of major scientific theory (go on someone - prove me wrong). However, it doesn't contain the kinds of scientific error which mark the Qur'an and the various hadith collections.

Yours

John the Bearded

Edited by John the Bearded, 29 October 2007 - 01:08 AM.


#16 The Submitter

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 12:22 AM

The Quran and Breastfeeding



Allah said in the holy Quran:
" The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term" (Quran 2:233)

Allah's Messenger, Muhammad (my peace be upon him) said:
"You must nurse your baby even with your tears." as he recommended Asmaa Bent AbI Bakr (may God be pleased with him) to nurse her baby at the breast."


What has been mentioned above assures that women should nurse their babies at breast, without using any other method such as the artificial suckling, cow's milk or others. This raises the argument about the reason for this.

Recently, WHO (the World Health Organization click this CAH - Exclusive Breastfeeding) and UNICEF (United Nations International Children's Fund click thisUNICEF in action) state that breastfeeding should last for two years. They addressee the all mothers allover the world to follow their recommendations. An article was published in Pediatric Clinics of North America, an American magazine, issued in February 2001, calls the American women to follow the recommendations of the Pediatric Academy of America. They recommend having the babies nursed at breast for 12 months as a minimum period, but it is preferable to follow the instruction of WHO.

These statements were miraculously stated by the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. Allah obligates mothers to nurse their babies at breast up to two years. God, to whom be ascribed all perfection and majesty, knows that this duration is the best from all sides of health and psychology. Today's researches of health and medicine have proved the necessity of a two year breastfeeding to have a sound growing up baby. God has mentioned this in the holy Qur'an before the human beings discover it lately. This is a sign of God's mercy on his people, especially those innocent children.

The modern studies assure that the consumed mother's milk is prophylactic against many bacterial inflammations. Lactation reduces the risk of leukemia for children. The longer the baby was breastfed, the higher was the rate of prophylaxis against such kinds of cancers. That is not only everything but it also protect from lymphoma or the cancer of the lymph system.

Moreover, a research, from Pediatric Clinics of North America of the same issue, has found that the kids who had consumed mother's milk have a significantly higher IQ than those who have no maternal milk. Also, this was heightened by the observation that the longer the baby was breast fed, the higher the IQ through the all years of life.

Click here to read about The Benefits of Breastfeeding

#17 The Submitter

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 03:29 AM

I see no reason to claim that this was miraculous, since this is something that can easily be determined by observation and comparing babies who were breastfed for different periods of time. It certainly wasnt beyond the realms of the capabilities of 7th century Arabian doctors.

By the way, rather than changing the subject, could you go back through this thread and respond to the comments given to you by people, especially John the Bearded? Its pointless discussing this with you if you are unprepared to engage in dialogue. One of the rules of this forum is that you are to engage in dialogue not to 'hit and run' with posts as you have been doing.


I supported my points -as you have seen- with scientific evidences and proofs from well-known trusted scientifc sources and sceintists (and they are non-islamic sources). How can you just try without scientific back-ups to deny those miraculous observations and signs stated in the Quran more than 1440 years ago which they have only been discovered by scientists few years ago. You and the others who try to respond/deny use only their opinions and self judgments whithout any knoweldge in the scientific fields and without any proof. I can not debate with someone who tries to reject scientific facts and truth that world-class scientists admit to find in the Quran just because he/she does not want to aknowledge the truth in the Quran no matter what. For the sake of denying the truth in the Quran (out of arrogance), someone like John the Bearded even will try to reject the well stated scientific facts that no one can argue about.

Do you want to believe John the Bearded and rejects what Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore admitted in the following video !!!!!!! Professor Moore is one of the world's most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology. Can you tell me if John the Bearded is a scientist in the field of embrylogy!!! John the Bearded is just trying to defend the falsehood and errors in the corrupt Bible which contradict the discovered scientific facts.

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore 8 is one of the world's most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God."9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here ).

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: "Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?" He replied: "I find no difficulty in accepting this."10

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: "....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad's companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training."11 (View the RealPlayer video of this comment here).

Edited by The Submitter, 31 October 2007 - 04:13 AM.


#18 Fortigurn

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 05:12 AM

I supported my points -as you have seen- with scientific evidences and proofs from well-known trusted scientifc sources and sceintists (and they are non-islamic sources).


Your 'well-known trusted scientifc sources and sceintists' were proved wrong. Embryos do not develop as described in the Qu'ran. Bones do not develop before flesh. Not only that, but you've failed to provide any more than two scientists who allegedly support the claims of the Qu'ran. You haven't even given us the full details of these two scientists.

Nor have you explained why you can't find any others who agree with them. Nor have you explained why other cultures had a better understanding of human embryology than that of the Qu'ran, long before the modern era. Moore's comments on embryology in the Qu'ran rely on interpretations of words and phrases which he has selected to suit his arguments, interpretations which are not supported by other Qu'ranic scholars.

A critic of Moore's work can be found here.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#19 The Submitter

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:01 PM

I supported my points -as you have seen- with scientific evidences and proofs from well-known trusted scientifc sources and sceintists (and they are non-islamic sources).


Your 'well-known trusted scientifc sources and sceintists' were proved wrong. Embryos do not develop as described in the Qu'ran. Bones do not develop before flesh. Not only that, but you've failed to provide any more than two scientists who allegedly support the claims of the Qu'ran. You haven't even given us the full details of these two scientists.

Nor have you explained why you can't find any others who agree with them. Nor have you explained why other cultures had a better understanding of human embryology than that of the Qu'ran, long before the modern era. Moore's comments on embryology in the Qu'ran rely on interpretations of words and phrases which he has selected to suit his arguments, interpretations which are not supported by other Qu'ranic scholars.

A critic of Moore's work can be found here.



Regarding your understanding of embryo development, well scientifc FACTS which are now taught in all medicine/embryology colleges worldwide have already been proven and stated and your understanding contradicts the very basics of those scientic FACTS which can be found in all medicine/embryology textbooks and in medicine websites.
Would you like us to believe your personal understanding and reject what all world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology say and teach !!!?

I have already showed a video of Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore where he stated: "....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad's companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen' eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training."(Click here to View the RealPlayer video of this comment ).

Again, Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world' most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In addition to Professor Moore, I have also showed you other world's most prominent scientists in the field of anatomy and embryology who have given similar statements about the scientic miracles of the Quran regarding embroy development, and they are:


2) Professeur Van Bersoud (canada)
is a professor of anatomy, pediatry, and obstetrics-gynaecology and sciences of the reproduction at the university Manitoba in Canada. He was there the president of the Department of anatomy during 16 years. He is very recognized in its field. He is the author or the editor of 22 handbooks and he published more than 181 scientific articles. In 1991, he received price more distinguished allotted in the field of the anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B., Great Price of the Canadian Association of the anatomists.

3) Professeur Joe Leigh Simpson (USA)
is a president of the Department of obstetrics-gynaecology, professor of obstetrics-gynaecology, and professor of human and molecular genetics in Baylor College of Medicine, in Houston, Texas, the United States.

4) Professor Marshal Jhonson
is a professor highly skilled of anatomy and biology related to the development at the university Thomas Jefferson on Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the United States.

5) Professeur Gérald C (USA)
is a director of program and lecturer of medical embryology at the cellular Department of biology of the Medical school from the Georgetown University in Washington, the United States.

6) Professeur Tejatat Tejasen (Thailand)
is president of Autopsy Department in the University Chiang Mai in Thailand.. he was a senior of the Faculty of Medicine of the same university. He embraced islam after reading the Quran.

Watch them here: Prominent Scientists Testify To Scientific Facts in Quran


I understand the cause of your arrogance. You are trying to defend the major error in your fabricated Bible about the same issue where your bible has stated that the flesh comes before the bone structure which by now contradicts the scientific facts in the embryology field. This is what your bible says and you are desperately trying to defend despite that it contradicts the very basics of scientific facts:

(King James Bible) [Job 10:11]:
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews."

Now, I ask every honest reader seeking the Truth to visit this scientific site which describes the embryo stages and it is provided by The University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia. This site has the original animation of Carnegie stage 11 to 23 of Human embryonic development. The human embryonic period proper is divided into 23 Carnegie stages. Also, it presents a table that shows the whole 23 stages in actual pictures.
(Click here to see the animation and pictures of the human embryo stages)



"We (Allah) will show you (mankind) Our signs/patterns in the horizons/universe and in yourselves until you are convinced that the revelation (Quran) is the truth." [Quran, 14:53]

Edited by Kay, 05 November 2007 - 02:04 AM.


#20 The Submitter

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:46 PM

This scientific knowledge which is supposedly a miraculous revelation of knowledge made to Mohammed was stuff that people prior to Mohammed already knew. Did you read the critique of Moore's work which was presented to you? I dont think you have. You have ignored it and just repeated that he's a great scientist, when actually there are plenty out there who disagree with him.

Your comments on Job 10v11 are absolute nonsense. Its not talking about human embyonic development. Its saying that we are clothed with skin and flesh (which we are) and that we are fenced inside with bones and sinews (which we are). There is no way you can make out that Job is talking about how babies are formed in the womb.

And by the way, theres still a number of comments that remain unanswered on your part.


Arrogance and ignorance will blind your heart and mind.


In addition to Professor Moore, I have also showed you other world's most prominent scientists in the field of anatomy and embryology who have given similar statements about the scientic miracles of the Quran regarding embroy development, and they are:


2) Professeur Van Bersoud (canada)
is a professor of anatomy, pediatry, and obstetrics-gynaecology and sciences of the reproduction at the university Manitoba in Canada. He was there the president of the Department of anatomy during 16 years. He is very recognized in its field. He is the author or the editor of 22 handbooks and he published more than 181 scientific articles. In 1991, he received price more distinguished allotted in the field of the anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B., Great Price of the Canadian Association of the anatomists.

3) Professeur Joe Leigh Simpson (USA)
is a president of the Department of obstetrics-gynaecology, professor of obstetrics-gynaecology, and professor of human and molecular genetics in Baylor College of Medicine, in Houston, Texas, the United States.

4) Professor Marshal Jhonson
is a professor highly skilled of anatomy and biology related to the development at the university Thomas Jefferson on Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the United States.

5) Professeur Gérald C (USA)
is a director of program and lecturer of medical embryology at the cellular Department of biology of the Medical school from the Georgetown University in Washington, the United States.

6) Professeur Tejatat Tejasen (Thailand)
is president of Autopsy Department in the University Chiang Mai in Thailand.. he was a senior of the Faculty of Medicine of the same university. He embraced islam after reading the Quran.

Watch them here: Prominent Scientists Testify To Scientific Facts in Quran


I understand the cause of your arrogance. You are trying to defend the major error in your fabricated Bible about the same issue where your bible has stated that the flesh comes before the bone structure which by now contradicts the scientific facts in the embryology field. This is what your bible says and you are desperately trying to defend despite that it contradicts the very basics of scientific facts:

(King James Bible) [Job 10:11]:
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews."

Now, I ask every honest reader seeking the Truth to visit this scientific site which describes the embryo stages and it is provided by The University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia. This site has the original animation of Carnegie stage 11 to 23 of Human embryonic development. The human embryonic period proper is divided into 23 Carnegie stages. Also, it presents a table that shows the whole 23 stages in actual pictures.
(Click here to see the animation and pictures of the human embryo stages)



"We (Allah) will show you (mankind) Our signs/patterns in the horizons/universe and in yourselves until you are convinced that the revelation (Quran) is the truth." [Quran, 14:53]

#21 Richie

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:57 PM

Arrogance and ignorance will blind your heart and mind.

I don't want to sound rude, but are you talking to yourself here?
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#22 The Submitter

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:06 AM

Arrogance and ignorance will blind your heart and mind.

I don't want to sound rude, but are you talking to yourself here?


I don't want to sound rude too, but I guess you are trying to prove to me that your bible was correct when it describes you in this passage:

"For vain men would be wise, though man be born like a wild asss's colt." [Job 11:12].

Or maybe in this passage:

[Ecclesiastes 7:26]: "And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her."

Edited by The Submitter, 05 November 2007 - 12:12 AM.


#23 Richie

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:44 AM

Not sure I follow what you're trying to say.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#24 Steven

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 07:38 AM

The Submitter, you are simply repeating yourself. The arguments you present here have already been addressed. Please deal with the posts which address these arguments of yours. For example, the Quran says 'We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh'. But in human development the bones do not precede the flesh, nor are they made out of flesh.


Submitter - this is a forum, you are required to engage and discuss.

#25 EliYah

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:28 PM



I just want to clarify a point made earlier. It was said by one on this post that 'Muhammad was exposed to the Jewish Scriptures, wasn't he?'.

Now I have two points which I would like to make about that. The first is a point and the second is a question.

1) POINT

Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) was NOT, as far as I am aware exposed to ALL the Jewish Scriptures, that is, the Taurah in its COMPLETE form. I do have proof for this point. And yes, the proof is from an authenticated Hadith, it's chain of narration can be traced right back to the Prophet himself (peace be upon him). The point is incidental within the Hadith. It is the important Hadith in which the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) CONFIRMED THE ALREADY EXISTING COMMANDMENT OF RAJM (Stoning to death) for married people who commit adultery.

In the Hadith, it is stated, so as to show that Umar ibn Khattab (who went on to become the Second Caliphate of the Muslim empire after the death of the Prophet pbuh) was an authority on the rules and regulations of the Taurah, that

UMAR (RA) WAS IN THE PROCESS OF TRANSLATING THE TAURAH INTO ARABIC FROM THE HEBREW.

This shows us that he had not yet finished, and it is well-known that other than his effort of doing this, there was no other COMPLETE translated copy of the Taurah in the Arabic language at that time. As for the COMPLETE HEBREW ORIGINAL, that would not have been understood by our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) except by the will of God and by His inspiration after Nubuwa perhaps (which is when his Prophethood began at the age of 40 years old). I am ignorant of whether as part of Muhammad's prophethood, he was inspired with the COMPLETE Taurah, or just parts of it or any of it. It even may be as many might assume, that God only gave him inspiration of the Qur'an and that as for the previous books, he was given parts according to when it was relevant and necessary for him to make reference to them.

But in any case, I am showing that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did NOT have exposure or access to the COMPLETE Hebrew scriptures. Not only that but had he been exposed to Arabic translations of it, even then ONLY IN PART.

This point is not straying from the topic and is not unimportant, because unfortunately many missionaries and anti-Islamic propogators of Christianity have, under the misguided belief that Muhammad DID have access to the COMPLETE HEBREW SCRIPTURES or at least a full translation or rendition (perhaps verbally) of them in another language which he could understand, COPIED THEM! I seek shelter in God Most Mighty from such low accusations!

2) QUESTION

Let's say hypothetically for arguments sake that he was exposed to the Jewish Scriptures (he wasn't!) - does anyone have any evidence they'd care to provide to prove that the interpretations of the Taurat or other books like Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash etc... contain anything which like the Qur'an, and like SUBMITTER SHOWED US, that THE CREATION WAS SMOKE, AND THEN IT WAS SEPARATED OUT OF IT?

I would sincerely like to see such writings if they are out there. Really I would.

ALLAH LOVES THE SINCERE SEEKER OF TRUTH, AND GUIDES WHO HE WILLS.

#26 Chris

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 01:05 PM

I just want to clarify a point made earlier. It was said by one on this post that 'Muhammad was exposed to the Jewish Scriptures, wasn't he?'.

Now I have two points which I would like to make about that. The first is a point and the second is a question.

1) POINT

Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) was NOT, as far as I am aware exposed to ALL the Jewish Scriptures, that is, the Taurah in its COMPLETE form.


Well, I didn't use the word "all". And, he didn't have to have them in print; wasn't he familiar with Jews living in the region?

#27 EliYah

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 12:04 PM

Two-putt, I'd like to remind you that if you say EXPOSED TO THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES, by using the definite article you do imply ALL or the COMPLETE JEWISH SCRIPTURES. If you had meant PART, you should have said PART or just not included the word THE as in EXPOSED TO JEWISH SCRIPTURES.

I apologise if I misunderstood, however, but I still believe my QUESTION stands, since even if it is true as you say, that Muhammad (pbuh) was being told things by Jews, you have yet to show proof (not supposition) that EVEN PART OF THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES, shows the same type of statements as found in the Qur'an presented to us by Submitter.

Submitter has shown that the Qur'an describes the creation in a way more fitting with the modern Scientific theory of how this universe came into existence. He has said that in the Qur'an, Allah states that the universe in the beginning was SMOKE (Arabic - Dukhan), and that Allah formed the heavenly bodies, including our planet Earth, etc... BY SEPARATING THAT SMOKE. These statements are not found in the Taurah, nor any similar statement.

However, by that I do not mean that the record of creation of the universe in the Taurah is necessarily incorrect or faulty. What I mean is only what I say, that the idea that the Universe was SMOKE and then God SEPARATED THAT SMOKE, thus making planets, stars, moons etc... is a concept only found in the Holy Qur'an ... and yet only proven to be the most likely theory of creation by Scientists in the last few decades or so, even though the Qur'an was revealed more than 1,400 years ago.

Be that as it may, the creation record found in the Taurah was revealed even longer ago about 4,000 years ago! But it does not contain this particular detail in question. This is something which, if you are a sincere seeker of the Truth, will at least cause you to be INTRIGUED about what the Qur'an has to say about other things...

and God knows best.

#28 Chris

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 04:17 PM

Two-putt, I'd like to remind you that if you say EXPOSED TO THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES, by using the definite article you do imply ALL or the COMPLETE JEWISH SCRIPTURES. If you had meant PART, you should have said PART or just not included the word THE as in EXPOSED TO JEWISH SCRIPTURES.


:sarah: No, I did not imply that whatsoever. You assumed it.

I apologise if I misunderstood, however, but I still believe my QUESTION stands, since even if it is true as you say, that Muhammad (pbuh) was being told things by Jews, you have yet to show proof (not supposition) that EVEN PART OF THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES, shows the same type of statements as found in the Qur'an presented to us by Submitter.

Submitter has shown that the Qur'an describes the creation in a way more fitting with the modern Scientific theory of how this universe came into existence. He has said that in the Qur'an, Allah states that the universe in the beginning was SMOKE (Arabic - Dukhan), and that Allah formed the heavenly bodies, including our planet Earth, etc... BY SEPARATING THAT SMOKE. These statements are not found in the Taurah, nor any similar statement.

However, by that I do not mean that the record of creation of the universe in the Taurah is necessarily incorrect or faulty. What I mean is only what I say, that the idea that the Universe was SMOKE and then God SEPARATED THAT SMOKE, thus making planets, stars, moons etc... is a concept only found in the Holy Qur'an ... and yet only proven to be the most likely theory of creation by Scientists in the last few decades or so, even though the Qur'an was revealed more than 1,400 years ago.

Be that as it may, the creation record found in the Taurah was revealed even longer ago about 4,000 years ago! But it does not contain this particular detail in question. This is something which, if you are a sincere seeker of the Truth, will at least cause you to be INTRIGUED about what the Qur'an has to say about other things...

and God knows best.


First of all, I was referring to this portion of Submitter's post with my original comment --

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world's renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: "Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case."


Secondly, my point was that the Jewish scriptures provide the idea of a common origin of the universe being created by a monotheistic God. Are you inferring that Muhammud wasn't exposed to Jews of the region?

...while Muhammad is settling down in Medina and his position there is insecure, he tries to convince the Jews that his revelations were the continuation of Judaism (and Christianity), the religion of the People of the Book or the Bible. Before he left Mecca, he faced Syria (i.e. Jerusalem) in prayer. The early Muslims in Medina may have observed the fast for the Day of Atonement, and their special Friday worship was a response to the beginning of the Jewish Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening. Muhammad forbad the Muslims from eating the same food prohibited for Jews, namely, pork, blood, carrion, and meat sacrificed to idols (see Sura 2:172-173). It seems, then, that earliest Islam was the development and even improvement on the prior faith, Judaism, or so Muhammad believed.

Source.


Oh yes, the quote by this Dr. Kroner doesn't directly deal with the 'universe from smoke' fallacy, which John the Bearded addresses here.

#29 Richie

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 11:11 PM

Are you just pasting from another site? Can't you just direct those who are interested (:sarah:) to another site?
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#30 R2D2

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 02:33 AM

Submitter,

I've made your cut and paste posts today not visible to other posters. When you return to the previous threads and start engaging in discussion as requested of you several times now, then we can talk about making them visible again.
"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15




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