19 replies to this topic

[InChristAlways]

Hi. I have been discussing the Bible with others and ran across a question. Where did the Hebrew language originate from? Thanks and Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4872384-qu...n-atheists.html
question for Atheists and non Atheists

Hi. Can anyone tell me where the original Hebrew language originated from and why the OT of the Bible was written in that language? And what does the word Hebrew in the Bible signify as I am trying to translate the Greek NT more into the Hebrew and that is quite a challenge.

In my humble view, it almost appears to be an "alien" type language that is rather difficult to "decifer", though I am enjoying studying it through the Hebrew thoughts of those times. Thanks.

Genesis 14:13 And one who is escaping cometh and declareth to Abram the Hebrew/`Ibriy, and he is dwelling among the oaks of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner, and they [are] Abram's allies.

Hebrew/`Ibriy = "one from beyond"

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

Jew= Y@huwda'iy (Aramaic) {yeh-hoo-daw-ee'} Judah= Y@huwdah {yeh-hoo-daw'}

Isaiah or Jesaiah or Jeshaiah = "Jehovah has saved"
Y@sha`yah {yesh-ah-yaw'} or Y@sha`yahuw {yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo}

Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of 'Adonay Y@hovih [is] upon Me, Because Y@hovah has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of Y@hovah , And the day of vengeance of our 'Elohiym; To comfort all who mourn,.......................Luke 4:18 "Spirit of LORD/kuriou [is] upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to [the] poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

Acts 13:29 "Now when they had fulfilled all that was Written concerning Him[Yeshuwa` Mashiyach], they took [Him] down from the tree and laid [Him] in a tomb.

http://www.christian....emic-book.html
-revelation-a-jewish-polemic-book

Edited by InChristAlways, 24 February 2007 - 08:12 PM.

[Steven]

Biblical answer = "from Babel"

Technical answer = "Hebrew language, member of the Canaanite group of the West Semitic subdivision of the Semitic subfamily of the Afroasiatic family of languages (see Afroasiatic languages)."
http://www.answers.c...hebrew-language

You might like to bookmark answers.com for these sort of questions

[sarah]

what language might have been spoken in the Garden of Eden then?

[Steven]

sarah, on Feb 25 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

what language might have been spoken in the Garden of Eden then?

We don't know. We can reconstruct shared ancestors for Latin and Sanskrit, or for Hebrew and Arabic, http://www.answers.c...emitic-language
http://www.answers.c...ropean-language
but there are very few linguists who spend time comparing the proto- tongues to find a proto-proto- common ancestor.

[sarah]

well yes I can understand that! Was just curious

[Steven]

InChristAlways, on Feb 24 2007, 09:10 PM, said:

[b]
Y@sha`yah {yesh-ah-yaw'} or Y@sha`yahuw {yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo}

Our Lord has a yahoo address?

[sarah]

Steven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DonalGraeme]

Steven, on Feb 25 2007, 04:14 AM, said:

InChristAlways, on Feb 24 2007, 09:10 PM, said:

[b]
Y@sha`yah {yesh-ah-yaw'} or Y@sha`yahuw {yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo}

Our Lord has a yahoo address?

[InChristAlways]

Steven, on Feb 25 2007, 04:11 AM, said:

sarah, on Feb 25 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

what language might have been spoken in the Garden of Eden then?

We don't know. We can reconstruct shared ancestors for Latin and Sanskrit, or for Hebrew and Arabic, http://www.answers.c...emitic-language
http://www.answers.c...ropean-language
but there are very few linguists who spend time comparing the proto- tongues to find a proto-proto- common ancestor.

I did a search for what the Hebrew word for Abram/Abraham might mean.

It almost appears to mean Father of People "Abram" and then Father/Angel-watcher/of People "Abraham".

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture. Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.

87 'Abram ab-rawm' contracted from 48; high father; Abram, the original name of Abraham:--Abram.

85 'Abraham ab-raw-hawm' contracted from 1 and an unused root (probably meaning to be populous); father of a multitude; Abraham, the later name of Abram:--Abraham.

48 'Ab-iyr-am ab-ee-rawm' from 1 and 7311; father of height (i.e. lofty); Abiram, the name of two Israelites:--Abiram.

2 'ab ab (Aramaic) corresponding to 1:--father.

5894 `iyr eer (Aramaic) from a root corresponding to 5782; a watcher, i.e. an angel (as guardian):--watcher.

5972 `am am (Aramaic) corresponding to 5971:--people.

This is how a lexicon has it translated but notice what Hebrew root word they use which I feel is the wrong one:

48 'Abiyram ab-ee-rawm' from 1 and 7311; father of height (i.e. lofty); Abiram, the name of two Israelites:--Abiram.

7311 ruwm room a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):--

Quote

Verse of Revelation translated into the Hebrew:

Revelation 1:1 [a/an]From/Un-Covering/Veiling[ apo-kaluyiV] ihsou/Yeshuwa` cristou/Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/'elohiym, to show to the bondservants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies sending out* thru/by the messenger of Him, to the Bondservants of Him, iwannh/Y@howchanan.

Edited by InChristAlways, 25 February 2007 - 10:21 PM.

[InChristAlways]

Steven, on Feb 25 2007, 04:14 AM, said:

InChristAlways, on Feb 24 2007, 09:10 PM, said:

Y@sha`yah {yesh-ah-yaw'} or Y@sha`yahuw {yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo}

Our Lord has a yahoo address?

Hmmm. Ok, whatever you think bro. LOL. I was hoping to have a more serious discussion on this but if you want to joke about it, then we can always go to the "Humour" board. The English translations just do not appear to have the "Pizzaz" as the original Hebrews and why I love studying that language. Perhaps if the Jews and ex-Christian Atheists would have studied the Bible more in the original language, they might understand the "greek" NT better. Don't really know. Peace.

Y@chezqe'l (Strong's 03168) occurs 3 times in 3 verses:

Ezekiel/Y@chezqe'l 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne [was] a likeness with the appearance of a man/adam high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.

Daniel/Daniye'l 7:13 " I was watching in the night visions, And behold, [One] like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

http://ourworld.cs.c...stabcs/id84.htm

........The Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture. Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.

Edited by InChristAlways, 25 February 2007 - 10:40 PM.

[Steven]

InChristAlways, on Feb 25 2007, 11:33 PM, said:

The English translations just do not appear to have the "Pizzaz" as the original Hebrew and why I love studying that language. Perhaps if the Jews and ex-Christian Atheists would have studied the Bible more in the original language, they might understand the "greek" NT better. Don't really know. Peace.

?


Hi ICA
We all like you here, but the problem is it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a believer in the powers of Hebrew to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. And I mean that nicely, but also without too much joking. Sheol is full of people who've spent years studying Hebrew (or Strong's numbers) and it has only taken them further from the Good News. To be saved we need to know Christ, and to do that means, laying aside the Law of Moses, whether it is food-laws or other hangups about "national/natural" Israel and things Jewish. It's worth considering that there were Jewish sorcerers at Ephesus, and among their magic books would have been (based on what survives today) an unhealthy amount kabbalistic nonsense about Hebrew and the magic alephbeth. Paul had those Jews take their books into the street and burn them. Sorry, there comes a point when the study of Hebrew stops being about language and starts to be about mysticism and darkness.

Incidentally Paul says Luke was not circumcised. So you might like to revisit the "Greek" NT.
S.

Edited by Steven, 26 February 2007 - 02:59 AM.

[InChristAlways]

Quote

Sorry, there comes a point when the study of Hebrew stops being about language and starts to be about mysticism and darkness.

But of course you are correct. How silly of me to think otherwise. I just don't combine "Greek thought" with "Hebrew thought" or else I would be just as in the "darkness" as the Jews of today are in.
The whole book of revelation is from the Hebrew OT and unless it is interpreted as the OC Hebrews would [instead of the "greek/hellenized" way of today], then I suppose Christ-ianity, Islam and Judaism will just continue to be as "different" as night and day. I did prophecy there will possibly be more Muslim mosques than christ-ian churches in the future.

Thanks for the response and I will now end my stay here on this forum and thanks to all of those that have been "patient" with me all these months. I do read the Bible as fulfilled for "Me" so I am not waiting on the return of Jesus in the future, so that would probably make me "unorthodox" or "heretical" in your eyes.

I will be on another Apologetics board watching "carnal" Christ-ians trying to convert ex-Christian atheists and also their battle with the Muslims. Peace to all here and may the LORD bless you. Good-bye.

http://www.christian...pologetics.html

Gala 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Priests]

Matthew 8:12 "But the sons of the kingdom shall be being "cast out" [#1544] into the darkness, the outer [#1857]

Reve 11:2 and, the Court/Palace [Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one without the Sanctuary[#3485], be you casting out!! [#1544 ekbale] out-side,[exw #1854] and you should not be measuring, that it was given unto the nations/eqnesin <1484>

Ezekiel 39"12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

Edited by InChristAlways, 26 February 2007 - 05:31 AM.

[Steven]

InChristAlways, on Feb 26 2007, 06:12 AM, said:

I do read the Bible as fulfilled for "Me" so I am not waiting on the return of Jesus in the future, so that would probably make me "unorthodox" or "heretical" in your eyes.

Hi ICA
Well, I won't claim to have understood much of what you just said. But all I can say is if your particular conviction, which is difficult to understand in itself, about Hebrew language is in any way related to the idea that Christ is not to come back (presumably you believe he came back in AD70) then what I was saying about the danger of going overboard on Hebrew would be true. Nor do I think because someone has said that you need to storm off...

However, even reading the NT in Hebrew (which many Israeli Christians do, since the UBS Hebrew NT is a perfectly good alternative to English) should show no shortage of verses that say "every eye will see him" or similar. I'm at a loss to say much more.
God bless
Steven

[InChristAlways]

Quote

However, even reading theNT in Hebrew (which many Israeli Christians do, since the UBS Hebrew NT is a perfectly good alternative to English) should show no shortage of verses that say "every eye will see him" or similar. I'm at a loss to say much more.
God bless
Steven

Hi Steve. I suppose after studying the Hebrew more and more, even the name "Jesus" or the greek form of it sounds almost "belittling" to me. I found it pretty amazing how the names of Isaiah and Jesus relate so closely when related to the Hebrew and I was actually struck with AWE when I saw the similarity.
It appears both the NC and OC are written/visioned in the same time frame. Anyway, I believe once more Christians study on the Hebrew and start reading the NC in a Hebrew thought/way, perhaps we can get more ex-Christians and even Jews/Muslims interested in the NT/NC. Thanks for your response and this is my last post here for awhile so I will probably not respond in the near future. Blessings to you and yours and all of you here. Peace.

http://www.christian....emic-book.html
-revelation-a-Hebrew/Jewish-polemic-book

Quote

Luke 4:18 "Spirit of LORD/kuriou [is] upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to [the] poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

2424. Iesous ee-ay-sooce' of Hebrew origin (3091); Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:--Jesus.
3091 Yhowshuwa` yeh-ho-shoo'-ah or Yhowshua {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah}; from 3068 and 3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader:--Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare 1954, 3442.
3442 Yeshuwa` yay-shoo'-ah for 3091; he will save; Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Palestine:--Jeshua.
3443 Yeshuwa` yay-shoo'-ah (Aramaic) corresponding to 3442:--Jeshua.
1954 Howshea` ho-shay'-ah from 3467; deliverer; Hoshea, the name of five Israelites:--Hosea, Hoshea, Oshea.

Quote

Isaiah/Y@sha`yah 61:1 "The Spirit of 'Adonay Y@hovih [is] upon Me, Because Y@hovah has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of Y@hovah , And the day of vengeance of our 'Elohiym; To comfort all who mourn,.......................

Isaiah: 3470 Ysha`yah yesh-ah-yaw' or Yshayahuw {yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo}; from 3467 and 3050; Jah has saved; Jeshajah, the name of seven Israelites:--Isaiah, Jesaiah, Jeshaiah.
3467 yasha` yaw-shah' a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor:--X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victory.
3050 Yahh yaw contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name:--Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Compare names in "-iah," "- jah."
3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.

Edited by InChristAlways, 27 February 2007 - 11:42 PM.

[Steven]

Hi ICA
No problem, if you want to read Revelation in Hebrew try http://dvar-adonai.o...tion001-005.htm
But be aware that the a translation (even from the Greek original into Hebrew) can never 100% capture the original.

God go with you, if you really must go for a period, and I'm sure we all here hope that one day you'll be able to accept Revelation (and the rest of NT) has application to non-Jews and to events after AD70.
God bless
S.

Revelation 1, on Feb 28 2007, 12:40 AM, said:

אגרת יהודה א חזון יוחנן ו-י


חזוֹן יוֹחָנָן

פרק א
א הַחִזָּיוֹן לְיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ אֲשֶׁר נָתַן־לוֹ הָאֱהִים לְהַרְאוֹת אֶת־עֲבָדָיו אֵת אֲשֶׁר־תִּקְרֶינָה אֶל־נָכוֹן בְּקֶרֶב הַיָּמִים וַיִּשְׁלַח בְּיַד־מַלְאָכוֹ וַיּוֹרֶה לְעַבְדּוֹ לְיוֹחָנָן׃
ב הוּא אֲשֶׁר הִגִּיד אֶת־דְּבַר הָאֱהִים וְאֶת־עֵדוּת יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר רָאָה׃
ג אַשְׁרֵי הַקֹּרֵא אֶת־דִּבְרֵי הַנְּבוּאָה הַזֹּאת וְאַשְׁרֵי שֹׁמְעֶיהָ הַשֹּׁמְרִים כְּכָל־הַכָּתוּב פֹּה כִּי קָרוֹב הַיּוֹם׃
ד יוֹחָנָן אֶל־שֶׁבַע הַקְּהִילּוֹת אֲשֶׁר בְּאַסְיָא חֶסֶד לָכֶם וְשָׁלוֹם מֵאִתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר הוּא הוֶֹה הָיָה וָבָא וּמֵאֵת שִׁבְעַת הָרוּחוֹת הָעֹמְדִים לִפְנֵי כִסְאוֹ׃
ה וּמֵאֵת יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ הָעֵד הַנֶּאֱמָן הַבְּכוֹר הַקָּם מִן־הַמֵּתִים וְעֶלְיוֹן לְמַלְכֵי־אָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר אָהַב אֹתָנוּ וּבְדָמוֹ רְחָצָנוּ מֵחַטֹּאתֵינוּ׃
ו וַיַעַשׂ אֹתָנוּ לְמַמְלֶכֶת כֹּהֲנִים לֵאהִים אָבִיו אֲשֶׁר לוֹ הַתִּפְאֶרֶת וְהַנֶּצָח עַד־עוֹלְמֵי עוֹלָמִים אָמֵן׃
ז הִנֵּה בָא עִם־עֲנָנִים וְרָאֲתָה אֹתוֹ כָּל־עַיִן וְעֵינֵי אֲשֶׁר דָּקְרוּ אֹתוֹ וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו כָּל־מִשְׁפְּחוֹת הָאֲדָמָה אָמֵן אָמֵן׃
ח אָנֹכִי אָלֶף וְתָו רֹאשׁ וָסוֹף נְאֻם־יְהוָֹה אֱהִים אֲשֶׁר הוּא הוֶֹה הָיָה וָבָא אֱהֵי צְבָאוֹת׃
ט אֲנִי יוֹחָנָן אֲחִיכֶם הַלֹּקֵחַ חֵלֶק בְּחֶבְלֵי יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ בְּמַלְכוּתוֹ וּבְתוֹחַלְתּוֹ הָיִיתִי בָּאִי הַנִּקְרָא פַּטְמוֹס עַל־דְּבַר הָאֱהים וְעַל־עֵדוּת יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ׃
י וַתָּנַח עָלַי הָרוּחַ בְּיוֹם הָאָדוֹן וָאֶשְׁמַע אַחֲרַי קוֹל גָּדוֹל כְּקוֹל שׁוֹפָר לֵאמֹר׃
יא אֲנִי הָאָלֶף וְהַתָּו הָרִאשׁוֹן וְהָאַחֲרוֹן וְאֵת אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה רֹאֶה כְּתֹב בַּסֵּפֶר וּשְׁלַח אֶל־שֶׁבַע הַקְּהִלּוֹת אֲשֶׁר בְּאַסְיָא אֶל־אֶפְסוֹס שְׂמִירְנָא פַּרְגְּמוֹס תִּיאֲטִירָא סַרְדִּיס פִּילָדֶלְפִיָּא וְאֶל־לוּדְקְיָא׃
יב וָאֵפֶן לִרְאוֹת אֶת־הַקּוֹל הַמְדַבֵּר אֵלָי וַיְהִי בְהַפְנֹתִי שִׁכְמִי וָאֵרֶא שֶׁבַע מְנֹרוֹת זָהָב׃
יג וּבְתוֹ הַמְּנֹרוֹת כְּמַרְאֵה בֶן־אָדָם עֹטֶה מְעִיל מַגִּיע עַד־מַרְגְּתָיו וְאֵזוֹר זָהָב אָזוּר בְּמָתְנָיו׃
יד וּשְׂעַר רֹאשׁוֹ כְּצֶמֶר נָקִי לָבָן כַּשָּׁלֶג וְעֵינָיו כְּלַבּוֹת אֵשׁ׃
טו וְרַגְלָיו כְּעֵין נְחשֶׁת קָלָל צָרוּף בְּתוֹ הַכִּבְשָׁן וְקוֹלוֹ כְּקוֹל מַיִם רַבִּים׃
טז וְלוֹ שִׁבְעָה כוֹכָבִים עַל־יַד יְמִינוֹ מִפִּיו יֹצֵאת חֶרֶב פִּיפִיּוֹת חָדָּה וּפָנָיו כִּבְרַק הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ בִּגְבֻרַתוֹ׃
יז וַיְהִי בִּרְאֹתִי אֹתוֹ וָאֶפֹּל לְרַגְלָיו כַּמֵּת וַיָּשֶׁת אֶת־יַד יְמִינוֹ עָלַי וַיֹּאמַר אֵלַי אַל־תִּירָא אֲנִי רִאשׁוֹן וַאֲנִי אַחֲרוֹן׃
יח וַאֲנִי הוּא הַחַי אֲשֶׁר הָיִיתִי מֵת וְהִנֵּה אֲנִי חַי לְעוֹלָם וָעֶד וּמַפְתְּחוֹת הַמָּוֶת וְהַשְּׁאוֹל בְּיָדִי הֵמָּה׃
יט וְאַתָּה כְּתֹב אֵת אֲשֶׁר רָאִיתָ אֶת־הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר לְפָנֶי וְאֶת־הָאֹתִיּוֹת לְאָחוֹר׃
כ אֶת־סוֹד שִׁבְעַת הַכּוֹכָבִים אֲשֶׁר רָאִיתָ עַל־יְמִינִי וְאֶת־שֶׁבַע מְנֹרוֹת הַזָּהָב שִׁבְעַת הַכּוֹכָבִים מַלְאֲכֵי שֶׁבַע קְהִלּוֹת הֵמָּה וְשֶׁבַע הַמְּנֹרוֹת אֲשֶׁר רָאִיתָ שֶׁבַע קְהִלּוֹת הֵנָּה׃

[InChristAlways]

Quote

Hi ICA
No problem, if you want to read Revelation in Hebrew try http://dvar-adonai.o...tion001-005.htm
But be aware that the a translation (even from the Greek original into Hebrew) can never 100% capture the original.

Hi Steven. I agree and why I love studying Revelation from the Hebrew thought and translation. Thanks for that information and I just noticed Evangelion had a study on the Hebrew word "Elohim".

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/...hp?showtopic=13

http://www.originalbible.com/articles/1/1/...her-Translation
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

While studying Revelation in relation to Exodus, I came across these 2 passages in Exodus 15 where it uses the Name/Nature of "God" in 4 different ways and why I wish more translations would at least leave these names of God untranslated in Bible as the version at the link above is going to do. I am now working on the Song of Moses in the Bible. Peace.

(Young) Exodus 15:1 Then singeth Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song to YAHWEH, and they speak, saying: --`I sing to YAHWEH, For triumphing He hath triumphed; The Horse and its Rider He hath cast/thrown into the Sea. 2 My strength and song is JAHH, And He is become my salvation/y@shuw`ah: This [is] my 'El, and I glorify Him; 'Elohiym of my father, and I exalt Him.

Quote

Reve 19:20 and the Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

(Young) Revelation 15:3 and They sing the Song of Mosheh, servant of the God/qeou, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, [O] Lord, the God/qeoV , the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,

Edited by InChristAlways, 03 March 2007 - 09:48 PM.

[Steven]

Hi ICA
Glad you didn't go, yours is a special voice here

You're more than welcome, I hope that the Hebrew translation of the Greek Revelation is some use to you. Particularly as it is probably the only NT book with any hint of "Hebrew" flavour to the Greek (in other words LXX flavour).

But Revelation is still a Greek book, and more standard Greek than the translations in the LXX.

A lot of people seem to have the mistaken idea that Jewish Greek is as different from normal Hellenist (ie Roman-era) Greek as Yiddish is from German. That isn't the case; Yiddish and German are very widely separated. Even written in German script Yiddish is still Yiddish*. However when you dip into a NT book (or Philo or Josephus, or pseudepigrapha like "Joseph and Asenath") you generally wouldn't know it was written by a Jewish author except by content. Any more than one can tell that an American author is Jewish.

But whatever helps each reader, each to his own
God bless
S.


(* if anyone is interested the 3 vols of Yiddish Musicals in the Milken/Naxos series have librettos on the Milken homepage)

[InChristAlways]

Taken from Evangelion thread on "Elohim". What is the difference when the word Elohiym is used with and without the article "the".

In Exodus 21:6; 22:8, 9, 22, 28, elohim has been rendered "judges." They "shall bring him unto the judges" (elohim.) They are so described because they judged on behalf of Yahweh and with His authority. Because they represented the authority of heaven, they were given the name elohim, and so the Revised Version has rendered most of these places as "God."

This interlinear shows 366 times used with the article and 634 times without it. I suppose I really haven't got time to study on this too much though it is interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Elohiym..........................2275 verses 2630 found [used in various forms "of me", "of us" "of him"........]

The Elohiym.........used 337 verses 366 found
Elohiym................used 634 verses 679 found

Genesis 5:22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with the 'Elohiym three hundred years, and had sons and daughters.
24 And he is walking, Enoch, with the 'Elohiym, and not is he, that he took him, 'Elohiym

Exodus 21:6 then hath his lord/'adown brought him nigh unto the 'elohiym, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him--to the age.

http://users.aristot...uie/lazarus.htm

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"............... LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'"

Edited by InChristAlways, 04 March 2007 - 07:17 AM.

[Steven]

InChristAlways, on Mar 4 2007, 07:03 AM, said:

What is the difference when the word Elohiym is used with and without the article "the".

Elohiym..........................2275 verses 2630 found [used in various forms "of me", "of us" "of him"........]
The Elohiym.........used 337 verses 366 found
Elohiym................used 634 verses 679 found

Hi ICA
I don't follow the math there, but in answer to the question, the use of ה‎ in Hebrew has little or no correspondence to English when dealing with "God". If you want to find out what the Hebrew means then a modern version like ESV is more reliable than KJV both in regard to meaning (or not) of ה‎ , and more reliable in translating Elohim (singular = God), and elohim (plural = gods).
God (singular) bless
Steven

[InChristAlways]

Steven, on Mar 4 2007, 09:21 AM, said:

InChristAlways, on Mar 4 2007, 07:03 AM, said:

What is the difference when the word Elohiym is used with and without the article "the".

Elohiym..........................2275 verses 2630 found [used in various forms "of me", "of us" "of him"........]
The Elohiym.........used 337 verses 366 found
Elohiym................used 634 verses 679 found

Hi ICA
I don't follow the math there, but in answer to the question, the use of ה‎ in Hebrew has little or no correspondence to English when dealing with "God". If you want to find out what the Hebrew means then a modern version like ESV is more reliable than KJV both in regard to meaning (or not) of ה‎ , and more reliable in translating Elohim (singular = God), and elohim (plural = gods).
God (singular) bless
Steven

Hi Steve. I suppose the different ways some translations use "redeem" in the NT is somewhat confusing to me.
For example, look at this passage in Isaiah 54:5 then look at Luke 21:27 and Revelation 5:9. Most translations use "redeem" for both greek words and I would like to ask which of those 2 greek words would match the word for Redeemer in Isaiah 54:5. Thanks for any help on this and for being "patient" with me as I am still debating ex-Christian atheists and Jews on the Scriptures. Peace.

(Young) Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thy husband, J@HOVAH of Hosts [is] His name, And thy Redeemer [is] the Holy One of Israel, `God of all the earth,' He is called.

Quote

The Hebrew word this interlinear uses for "possesors" appears to be used only one time in the OT, but I haven't really got around to studying on it too closely. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 54:5 That possesors of you, one making you, YHWH of Hosts, name of Him and Redeemer/ga'al (Strong's 01350) of you, Holy One of Yisra'el, 'Elohiym of all the land He shall be called.

1350 ga'al gaw-al' a primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), i.e. to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative's property, marry his widow, etc.):--X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk(-man), purchase, ransom, redeem(-er), revenger.

Luke 21:27 `And then they shall see the Son of the Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory; 28 and these things beginning to happen bend yourselves back, and lift up your heads, because your Redemption/from-loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> doth draw nigh.'

3083. lutron loo'-tron from 3089; something to loosen with, i.e. a redemption price (figuratively, atonement):--ransom.

(Young) Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered, and didst redeem/purchase/hgorasaV <59> Us to God/qew in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

59. agorazo ag-or-ad'-zo from 58; properly, to go to market, i.e. (by implication) to purchase; specially, to redeem:--buy, redeem. 58. agora ag-or-ah' from ageiro (to gather; probably akin to 1453); properly, the town-square (as a place of public resort); by implication, a market or thoroughfare:--market(-place), street

Edited by InChristAlways, 07 March 2007 - 09:04 PM.