68 replies to this topic

[Richie]

Jeremy, on Jan 21 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

Richie, on Jan 21 2007, 04:36 PM, said:

God spirit - he is not made of stuff in the same sense we are. I don't think we can properly understand that.

But Peter says we're going to be partakers of the divine nature. Why do you say that being spirit means having no body?

I didn't say being spirit means having no body.

[Evangelion]

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 04:28 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Jan 21 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

No Damo, I don't believe God resembles a man.

He describes Himself in language that helps us to comprehend Him, making it sound as if He looks like us; but the reality is that we look like the image He has chosen to represent Himself.

He can speak without a mouth, hear without ears, etc. because He is omniscient and omnipotent; He knows all things, and can perform all things.

Where is the scripture to prove it?

To prove what? That He is omniscient and omnipotent? You could try here.

Ruth 2:12 describes God as having wings. Do you believe that He has literal wings, Damo?

[Damien]

Evangelion, on Jan 22 2007, 02:52 PM, said:

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 04:28 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Jan 21 2007, 07:26 PM, said:

No Damo, I don't believe God resembles a man.

He describes Himself in language that helps us to comprehend Him, making it sound as if He looks like us; but the reality is that we look like the image He has chosen to represent Himself.

He can speak without a mouth, hear without ears, etc. because He is omniscient and omnipotent; He knows all things, and can perform all things.

Where is the scripture to prove it?

To prove what? That He is omniscient and omnipotent? You could try here.

Ruth 2:12 describes God as having wings. Do you believe that He has literal wings, Damo?

No, I don't need to be proven his immortality and presence

1 Timothy 1 v 17 explains all that.

No I don't believe he has wings.

[Damien]

Quote

12 The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

I believe the term used here is an epitome of God's freedom. The same term is used in Isaiah:

Quote

Isaiah 40:31 - But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

The angels were not noted for having wings.

They did however have the resemblance of a man.

[Damien]

Quote

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

The angels that came to Lot

[Damien]

Question to Ponder:

If God does not have the attributes of living creatures:

Ie: Mouth, Nose, Eyes etc. than what is he?

- Is he just the Oxygen we breathe?

- Is he just fire with a conscience?

[Damien]

Quote

1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

[Richie]

What would God need a nose for?

[Damien]

Richie, on Jan 22 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

What would God need a nose for?

What do you think?

[Flappie]

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Richie, on Jan 22 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

What would God need a nose for?

What do you think?

He already said God doesn't need one.


Do you believe God needed ears to hear Able's blood call to him?
Do you believe God needed a nose to smell the odours of the sarcifices people sent him?
Do you believe God needs eyes to see what you're doing?

Please keep in mind that blood makes no noise, that the smell of sarcrifices can't possibly reach that far, and that light doesn't go through solid walls.

Edited by Flappie, 22 January 2007 - 08:58 AM.

[Damien]

Flappie, on Jan 22 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Richie, on Jan 22 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

What would God need a nose for?

What do you think?

He already said God doesn't need one.


Do you believe God needed ears to hear Able's blood call to him?
Do you believe God needed a nose to smell the odours of the sarcifices people sent him?
Do you believe God needs eyes to see what you're doing?

Please keep in mind that blood makes no noise, that the smell of sarcrifices can't possibly reach that far, and that light doesn't go through solid walls.

So you all agree that God doesn't have any form or shape?

[Flappie]

I'm just asking you if you believe God needs physical attributes.

[Damien]

Flappie, on Jan 22 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

I'm just asking you if you believe God needs physical attributes.

Look I know God nothing's impossible yada yad a yada!

My point is I don't think it makes sense for God not to have those Attribute of Eyes, Nose, Mouth.

If he doesn't have them then what is he?

He must have a face?

[Flappie]

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

Flappie, on Jan 22 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

I'm just asking you if you believe God needs physical attributes.

Look I know God nothing's impossible yada yad a yada!

My point is I don't think it makes sense for God not to have those Attribute of Eyes, Nose, Mouth.

Ears for example are things that catch sound waves and convert them into impulses which are sent to the brain. For ears to be useful there needs to be sound. Most of my prayers aren't said out loud, so no sound is produced, and ears are useless.

Same with the nose. There's no possible way that the odor of things in the physical sense would reach God. Eyes need light, but since that doesn't go though solid walls, anything even remotely close to an eye would be useless.

So, even if God had those physical attributes, the verses are still figurative.

Quote

If he doesn't have them then what is he?

Spirit.

Quote

He must have a face?

A physical one, why?

[Damien]

Flappie, on Jan 22 2007, 07:34 PM, said:

Damien, on Jan 22 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

Flappie, on Jan 22 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

I'm just asking you if you believe God needs physical attributes.

Look I know God nothing's impossible yada yad a yada!

My point is I don't think it makes sense for God not to have those Attribute of Eyes, Nose, Mouth.

Ears for example are things that catch sound waves and convert them into impulses which are sent to the brain. For ears to be useful there needs to be sound. Most of my prayers aren't said out loud, so no sound is produced, and ears are useless.

Same with the nose. There's no possible way that the odor of things in the physical sense would reach God. Eyes need light, but since that doesn't go though solid walls, anything even remotely close to an eye would be useless.

So, even if God had those physical attributes, the verses are still figurative.

Quote

If he doesn't have them then what is he?

Spirit.

Quote

He must have a face?

A physical one, why?

I don't mean Physical I just mean a face

[TrevorL]

A few brief thoughts on a question that I do not know the answer. My only speculation is that God could have chosen the form of being that he has decided to physically become and reveal himself as.

When the angels stand in God's presence, I believe that they are of the same form as when they appeared to man. Question: Do the angels speak directly to God, or does God read their thoughts?

Jesus did not need ears to read the thoughts of man, but he did have ears, and also used his mouth and ears after his resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Chris]

How can an infinite being be restricted to any finite "shell" we attempt to place them in? Is it fair to say we can't understand God's true form now? And, that is the reason He has established in our minds and understanding physical forms and features in which to represent Himself?

[Damien]

Maybe this discussion is something we can't all really answer?



"For no man hath seen the Father"

[TrevorL]

Greetings TwoPutt,

TwoPutt, on Jan 23 2007, 05:07 AM, said:

How can an infinite being be restricted to any finite "shell" we attempt to place them in? Is it fair to say we can't understand God's true form now? And, that is the reason He has established in our minds and understanding physical forms and features in which to represent Himself?

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
Hebrews 1:13 (KJV): "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
Luke 1:19 (KJV): "And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings."
This seems to indicate that God is a physical being, seated upon his throne, with Jesus seated at his right hand, and the angels standing in God's presence.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Chris]

TrevorL, on Jan 23 2007, 09:56 PM, said:

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
Hebrews 1:13 (KJV): "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

Maybe this is figurative? If we automatically say that the Lord is sitting on a literal throne then what does that say of his enemies? Will they all be literal footstools?

Just a thought.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again TwoPutt,

TwoPutt, on Jan 24 2007, 04:07 AM, said:

"Maybe this is figurative? If we automatically say that the Lord is sitting on a literal throne then what does that say of his enemies? Will they all be literal footstools?

Just a thought."

Perhaps it is difficult to differentiate where the literal and the figurative are distinct. They sometimes merge and overlap.
1 Samuel 17:51 (KJV): "Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
Psalm 8:6 (KJV): "Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"
I believe that Psalm 8 is based initially upon the incident of David and Goliath, and David literally stood upon Goliath and slew him. This then becomes figurative of David's victory over the Philistines and the nations. It also points forward to Christ's victory over all aspects of sin and suffering and the subjection of the nations. Nevertheless I believe that God has a literal throne in heaven, just as Jesus is in the future to sit upon the literal throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Chris]

TrevorL, on Jan 24 2007, 11:29 PM, said:

Nevertheless I believe that God has a literal throne in heaven, just as Jesus is in the future to sit upon the literal throne of David in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor,

I have much difficulty believing there is a literal throne in the heavenlies for a God who is spirit and for Whom the heavens cannot even contain. Why then have a literal throne? What would be its purpose? I don't think that is substantiated in the scriptures.

A figurative throne...certainly. But a literal?

Thanks,
TwoPutt

[Netsach Yisrael]

TwoPutt, on Jan 25 2007, 07:51 AM, said:

I have much difficulty believing there is a literal throne in the heavenlies for a God who is spirit and for Whom the heavens cannot even contain. Why then have a literal throne? What would be its purpose?

When Christ said that angels behold the face of God, does it mean that the angels are scattered throughout the universe beholding nothing specific?

--Len.

[Steven]

TrevorL, on Jan 24 2007, 11:29 PM, said:

Nevertheless I believe that God has a literal throne in heaven, just as Jesus is in the future to sit upon the literal throne of David in Jerusalem.

Hi Trevor
I'm sorry but I am a little new to this as I've only come across a corporeal God with Mormons, and one Christadelphian who thought God was physical, so am surprised to see 2 or 3 supporting it on this thread. If it helps someone feel God is real maybe... But there's a basic flaw in the above reason since that the Bible says clearly that God is beyond physical limits (1 Kings 8:27 2 Chronicles 2:6 6:18 are only the beginning of OT quotes demonstrating this), but the Bible also says that Christ has a body (Luke 23:49, he took it to heaven with him, will come in like manner, his feet will stand on the mount of Olives, etc)

Put simply Christ is a created being so comes under Heb.11:3, as indeed does all matter (including angels which are as much created beings as Christ is, see Ps148:3-5 and the 5th Commandment). Everything made up of atoms -- even if like the post resurrection Christ or angels able to manipulate those atoms in ways we cannot fully comprehend -- is covered by Heb.11:3

So, sorry, but I can't really see that a comparison with the Son of Man proves anything - especially the throne seeing as the throne in Revelation is big enough for millions to sit on. Likewise the throne room visions of Micaiah, the Prologue to Job, the patron-angels of children, etc (cannot think of others) do not have to be taken literally. Psalm 47:8 "God reigns over the nations; God sits on his holy throne." is anthromorphism; unless the Russians were right in gloating that Yuri Gagarin didn't bump into it vertically above Israel "enthroned above the cherubim"

Given the verses already cited the corporeal God view doesn't seem to (pardon the pun) have a leg to stand on. Where's the actual verse, not inferred arguments, that contradicts 1 Kings 8:27 etc??
God bless
S.

[Colter]

Hiya guys,

Can I offer a non Hebrewalogical explanation as a representative of the Trinitarian crowd? Good, thanks.

The term "likeness" is referring to the presence of the Ultimate Father , First cause (origin of the trinity) present in men of right mind.

Just as the Trinity has the Ultimate Father as its nucleus, finite man (the last and least in the chain of sons of God) has the gift of the Father present within him. This presence is the will of the Father abroad in the universe.

That's what I think the author meant when he used the term "likeness".



Colter

[Chris]

Netsach Yisrael, on Jan 25 2007, 07:07 AM, said:

TwoPutt, on Jan 25 2007, 07:51 AM, said:

I have much difficulty believing there is a literal throne in the heavenlies for a God who is spirit and for Whom the heavens cannot even contain. Why then have a literal throne? What would be its purpose?

When Christ said that angels behold the face of God, does it mean that the angels are scattered throughout the universe beholding nothing specific?

--Len.

Hello Len,

I was curious as to a literal throne. As to how spiritual beings interact, that precisely is my question. Does God need a literal throne? Or, is there a literal throne He sits on?

As to your question, I am not sure what "scattered throughout the universe beholding nothing specific" means. In 2 Chronicles 2:6 Solomon says that the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him. So, I don't think God is "scattered throughout the universe." It seems even that is too constrictive for Him.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
TwoPutt

[Netsach Yisrael]

TwoPutt, on Jan 25 2007, 05:48 PM, said:

As to your question, I am not sure what "scattered throughout the universe beholding nothing specific" means. In 2 Chronicles 2:6 Solomon says that the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him. So, I don't think God is "scattered throughout the universe." It seems even that is too constrictive for Him.

Well, I'm putting the question in a subtle way: I didn't ask where God is; I asked where the angels are. Are they somewhere specific beholding something specific, or are they nowhere specific regarding nothing specific? If there's no place for God (let alone no face for God), then the angels don't need to go anywhere--one angel can be "beholding God's face" (whatever that means) here on earth, and another can be "beholding God's face" (whatever that means) somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy.

--Len.

[Netsach Yisrael]

Steven, on Jan 25 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

...I've only come across a corporeal God with Mormons, and one Christadelphian who thought God was physical, so am surprised to see 2 or 3 supporting it on this thread...

There's a big leap from "God really has an arm, and isn't just being figurative" to "God is actually a physical person who stands about 5'8" and has a gold tooth." The Bible ascribes things like "arms" and "eyes" to God, and some of us simply read what it says and accept it.

Theorizing whether God is or isn't "physical" is dangerous territory. What does that even mean? In your post you mention "made of atoms," which might be a synonym for what you mean by "physical." Is God "made of atoms"? What is He made of? The question is inherently Greek--it's precisely the question that led Greeks to invent the Trinity. But it's a foolish question, since we haven't the faintest clue what God is "made of." Being a reader of scifi, I can think of a dozen hokey suggestions whenever you'd like, but I try not to mix scifi and scripture. An important part of that is to avoid speculations like "what God is made of" entirely. Atoms, ether, ectoplasm, marshmallow fluff, and "divine essence" are all missing from the pages of scripture.

--Len.

[Chris]

Netsach Yisrael, on Jan 25 2007, 02:25 PM, said:

and another can be "beholding God's face" (whatever that means) somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy.
--Len.

Len,

Andromeda galaxy? I'm sorry, I'm not very familiar with you so I don't understand where you are coming from with your comments.

I'm curious as to how you apply 2 Chronicles 2:6 to this discussion?

Thanks,
Chris

[DonalGraeme]

Evangelion, on Jan 19 2007, 11:59 AM, said:

I don't believe that God has a physical form, but I do believe that the image we bear is the image in which He has chosen to represent Himself - both figuratively and literally.

You know, the more and more we go back and forth on this topic, the more I appreciate the subtlety of wording that Ev made, quoted above.

Mike