Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Revelation 2:23 - The Lord Jesus is God


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
46 replies to this topic

#31 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:51 AM

Who has changed the meaning? What have they changed it from and what have they changed it to?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#32 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

To be omniscient means to be God. The Lord Jesus according to this passage is omniscient (Revelation 2:23). Therefore the Lord Jesus is God.

#33 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:12 PM

To be omniscient means to be God.

Why? Omniscient means knowing everything. What if Jesus knows things because God told him?

The Lord Jesus according to this passage is omniscient (Revelation 2:23).

No he isn't. Knowing minds and hearts doesn't mean omniscience. Omniscience means knowing everything.


Therefore the Lord Jesus is God.


No he isn't.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#34 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:08 PM

Why? Because that is how omniscient is defined.

#35 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:25 PM

Defined by whom?
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#36 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:42 PM

Why? Because that is how omniscient is defined.

Let's say I wake up tomorrow morning and find I've developed telepathic powers. I can read people's minds. I know people's minds and hearts. Does this make me omniscient? No, because there are still things I don't know. Who shot JFK, for instance. And who Jack the Ripper was.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#37 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:39 PM

I'll write this again...it refers to knowing the TOTALITY of ALL people's hearts. Therefore you would know who shot JFK because you would have known the heart (and actions) of the shooter/shooters.

Remember it is the TOTALITY of the heart - more specifically of ALL human hearts.
Whoever is able to know that is the omniscient God.

Edited by foudroyant, 17 August 2012 - 11:41 PM.


#38 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:48 PM

I'll write this again...it refers to knowing the TOTALITY of ALL people's hearts. Therefore you would know who shot JFK because you would have known the heart (and actions) of the shooter/shooters.

What if they're dead? Jack the Ripper's certainly dead. What about things that have nothing to do with people's hearts? Things that no man knows? Like the date of Christ's return. I wouldn't know that. Neither did Jesus.

Remember it is the TOTALITY of the heart - more specifically of ALL human hearts.
Whoever is able to know that is the omniscient God.

No, because that doesn't cover all knowledge, which is what omniscience means. Even if it did, which it doesn't, it still doesn't make the person possessing that knowledge God. If you tell someone everything you know, it doesn't make them you.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#39 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:31 AM

I am talking about what Christ knows now. Feel free to start another thread about your so-called proof. THIS THREAD deals with Revelation 2:23. I can cite other passages that demonstrate His omniscience (such as Colossians 2:3) but that would fragment this thread.

Thank you for redefining what kardiognwstes means.

#40 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:14 AM

I didn't refine what the word means, and I think you know that.

If the competent authorities say that it means "the one who knows the hearts", I am happy to accept that. What I am not happy to accept is your assertion that this is the same thing as omniscience. Ironically it is you who appear to be redefining the meaning of the word.

Even if Christ is omniscient now, he wasn't during his time on earth, which means he had to acquire his new knowledge from a source other than himself, i.e. from God. This once again demonstrates that Christ is subordinate to God.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#41 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

I know what you are happy and unhappy accepting. if it agrees with you then it is to be accepted but if it disagrees with your false beliefs then it is to be rejected.

#42 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

In other words, you have no answer, and you admit that your accusation is baseless. That's OK. Now can we get on with the discussion?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#43 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

In other words you resort to your authoritative opinion.

#44 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:25 PM

Why else are you refusing to answer the question? I think you should take a break unless you have something new to add.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#45 foudroyant

foudroyant

    Kappa

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 171 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:58 AM

Nothing else to add because I already supplied (with sources) what kardiognwstes means.

#46 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:46 AM

It means "one who knows the heart". Who has disagreed with you about that?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#47 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

OK, we've now got three threads all arguing about omniscience and the meaning of this one particular word. I've already closed one and I'm closing this one too, so we can keep it to just one thread.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users