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#1 andrewlya

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 05:25 PM

HI all, I come from a Christian Orthodox background, but I  don't see God as a Triune. I see God as one, who is the Father. I see Jesus as His Son and the promised Messiah and the Holy Spirit is the power of God which is what Christadelphians believe.

 

However, there are some Biblical verses that confuse me with regards to Jesus's nature. Even though Jesus Himself never said that He was God or asked to be worshiped there are certain verses pointing out to a possibility of that. I am not sure how to interpret them, please help me understand the following verses.

 

If Jesus is not God then He cannot be worshiped as only God can be worshiped then why does the Bible say this:

  • "Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’" - John 20:28
  • "Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."-
    Romans 9:5
  • "But to the Son He says: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." -
    Hebrews 1:8
  • "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"- Titus 2:13
  • "Then those who were in the boat came and[a]worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”-

Matthew 14:33

  • "And as they went to tell His disciples,[a] behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. "-

Matthew 28:09

  • "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted."-

Matthew 28:17

  • "Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him."-
    John 9:38
  • "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him.”-
    Hebrews 1:6
  • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"-
    John 1:1

I am looking forward to our anwers,

 

God bless in Jesus's name.



#2 Kay

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 04:59 AM

Link to intended response @:

 

Questions? Suggestions? Concerns?


"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#3 O'neal

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 03:30 PM

Jesus was/is God.. That's the Answer...



#4 Librarian

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 06:29 AM

Jesus was/is God.. That's the Answer...

Nowhere in the Word of God is a claim made that Jesus was "God the Son" - it is always the Son of God, even by Jesus' own words.

The response is linked @

Questions? Suggestions? Concerns? 

(Perhaps another example - do Angels have wings? Pictures through the ages have always depict them as such - but again, nowhere will you find such a depiction in the Word of God).



#5 O'neal

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 01:21 PM

The bible declares Jesus and God are one. No angels do not have wings, cherubs do. I apologize for the short response without much rebuttal, but I am unable to simply copy and post scripture.. Time will probably not allow me to manually insert every scripture.

 

Does this forum not allow one to copy and paste?



#6 O'neal

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 01:26 PM

Does this forum not allow one to simply copy and paste scripture?



#7 O'neal

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 01:31 PM

Sorry but I cannot respond with a adequate rebuttal. I am unable to simply copy and paste scripture. But I believe you to be wrong in the matter... powellbrian360@gmail.com



#8 Librarian

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:53 PM

O'neal

Thank you for the response, you can copy and past scripture - or should be able to.

The board also has the facility if I type in John 1:1 then the mouse over will show the contents of the verse.

May I also suggest if you have a moment to follow up with these books (and perhaps give opinion on them):

History of the Origin of the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Christian Church - Stannus, Hugh H.

available @ Archive.org
 

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome - Richard E. Rubenstein  

available @ amazon
 
The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound - Sir Anthony Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting

available @ amazon

The Racovian Catechism, With Notes and Illustrations - Rees, Thomas (1818)

available @ Archive.org

another is:

The Doctrine of the Trinity Analytically Examined and Refuted - White, Percy 

to name but a few.

Looking forward to your response and comment on the opinion of these authors.


#9 Doug Brents

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 12:50 PM

I don't know why this topic has languished so long without someone firmly taking to task those who discount the divinity of Jesus.  He did claim to be God in His ministry, and other Scripture tells us that He was God.

 

John 1:1-18 tells us, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it....

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

 

We know that Jesus is the "Word" spoken of here, because John was the forerunner who made the way ready for Jesus.  The Word became flesh in the form of Jesus.

 

Continue over in John 10:29-30, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

 

And again in Col 2:8-10, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

 

Again, in John 8:57-58, "Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”  58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

 

Now this is clearly the same language given by God when speaking with Moses.  The meaning here is that there needs to be no qualification of the verb "to be".  Humans say, "I am happy, or cold, or sleepy, or hot, or etc. etc."  But God says, "I AM."  Period.  Now Jesus says, "I AM."  Period.

 

John 20:28-29, "And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'"

 

Notice that Jesus does not condemn Thomas for saying that Jesus is his God.  It would be a sin for Jesus to allow himself to be worshiped as God if He were not God, but He is God.

 

Finally, John 9:35-39, "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”

36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”

38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

39 And Jesus said, 'For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.'"

 

Again, we have someone worshiping Jesus, and Jesus does nothing to stop him.  Even God's angels refuse to allow man to worship them.  But Jesus allows a man to worship Him.

 

These passages, among many others, clearly show that Jesus was not only a real physical man living on Earth, but also fully God, the equal to God.  Which brings up one more passage:  Phil 2:5-11, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

 

Jesus was in the form of God, and it was not robbery to be equal with God.  This means that equality with God was His possession, and it was His by right. 



#10 Librarian

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 01:00 PM

Doug - thanks for your comments, will be back in a little while to counter what you claim to be truth, and the scriptural reasons why Jesus isn't God, Jesus is the son of God, not God the son.



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Posted 19 April 2017 - 01:01 PM

Trinity just doesn't make logical sense ... nor does the Bible teach it.



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Posted 19 April 2017 - 01:04 PM

A good start:

When Jesus Became God

 

by Richard E. Rubenstein

 

@ archive.org



#13 Doug Brents

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 02:02 PM

Trinity just doesn't make logical sense ... nor does the Bible teach it.

 

A lot of Scripture does not make sense to human understanding.  I am not asking you to accept it logically.  I am telling you what Scripture teaches.  If your eyes are closed, then you cannot see the Truth.  I hope to help you open your eyes to the Bible (not to me).  The Bible is very clear, as the passages I quoted above show, that Jesus claimed to be God, was accounted to be God by His followers, and was acclaimed to be God by Scripture.

 

Don't forget, that the term "son" had a totally different meaning in the first century than it does today.  Today it simply means a male child.  But in the first century it meant "equal to the father".  A male child was not accounted as "son" until he came of age.  Until he came of age, he was simply a child in the home of his father.  But when he came of age and was accounted as "son", the father gave him authority in the home equal to the father's own authority.  So when Jesus was baptized and the Father came down on Him in the form of a dove, and said, "This is my beloved Son...", He was announcing that Jesus was equal to Himself.  He did this again at the "transfiguration". 



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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:03 AM

But, the Scripture doesn't teach Trinity ... it was an invention.



#15 Doug Brents

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:24 PM

But, the Scripture doesn't teach Trinity ... it was an invention.

 

I can understand you aversion to the word Trinity.  Some think it means that there are three Gods.  But God is ONE.  The Father and Son are ONE.  They are perfectly equal, perfectly united.  Jesus is God, He claimed to be God, He was honored as equal to God by the Father, He was honored as God by the Apostles.  Scripture is clear that if we do not honor Jesus as God and as equal with the Father, then we do not honor the Father (John 5:23). 



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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:24 AM

Doug, no-one has an "aversion to the 'word' trinity" - rather, the fact that it isn't taught in the Scriptures of God.

 

You also said:
 

Scripture is clear that if we do not honor Jesus as God and as equal with the Father, then we do not honor the Father (John 5:23)

 

 

That is not what the verse actually says - it does not say we should honour Jesus as God (co-equal, co-eternal - "Godhead"), rather it says:

John 5:23 "so that all people44 will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
_______

 

44tn Grk “all.” The word “people” is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity (cf. KJV “all men”).

[1] Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 5:23). Biblical Studies Press.


#17 Doug Brents

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:29 PM

 

Doug, no-one has an "aversion to the 'word' trinity" - rather, the fact that it isn't taught in the Scriptures of God.

 

You also said:
 

Scripture is clear that if we do not honor Jesus as God and as equal with the Father, then we do not honor the Father (John 5:23)

 

 

That is not what the verse actually says - it does not say we should honour Jesus as God (co-equal, co-eternal - "Godhead"), rather it says:

John 5:23 "so that all people44 will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
_______

 

44tn Grk “all.” The word “people” is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity (cf. KJV “all men”).

[1] Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 5:23). Biblical Studies Press.

 

 

Many other passages tell us that God is the only one whom we should worship as God, but John 5:23 tells us to honor Jesus just as we honor the Father.  If only God is worthy of Godly honor, and we are told to honor the Son as we honor the Father, then the Son MUST be God.  Otherwise, it would be a sin to honor Him at the same level as the Father.  Notice the last sentence of the verse.  If you do not honor Jesus [exactly as you honor the Father], then you do not honor the father. 

 

Also, this is only one of the passages that I referenced.  There are dozens of passages that tell us of the divinity of Jesus.  You can discount them all you want, but a lie told a thousand times does not suddenly become the truth.  A lie told by 1,000,000 people does not suddenly become the  truth.  A lie is a lie.  The FACT of Jesus divinity is clearly explained in Scripture.

 

Just the fact that He is called the "SON" of God tells us that He is equal to God.  The word "son" in the first century referred to a male child who was of age, and equal in authority with the father.  He was still subject to the father, but for household decisions, the son was equal to the father. 



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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:35 PM

Doug, Jesus is the son of God, not God the son - there is nothing in Scripture where Jesus claims to be God the son ... if you have evidence where Jesus claims this, please post the relevant verses.

The lie, it works both ways, because a billion people believe an untruth, it doesn't make it truth.


 



#19 Doug Brents

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:09 PM

Doug, Jesus is the son of God, not God the son - there is nothing in Scripture where Jesus claims to be God the son ... if you have evidence where Jesus claims this, please post the relevant verses.

The lie, it works both ways, because a billion people believe an untruth, it doesn't make it truth.


 

 

I have already posted numerous passages where Jesus claims equality with God, in His own words.  Also, many passages where the Apostles through the inspiration of the Spirit, affirm the deity of Jesus.  But I will copy them here for you as well.

 

John 5:17-18 - "But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”  18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

 

The Jewish leaders understood Him to be saying He was equal to God.

 

John 5:22-23 - "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

 

Notice that the Son should be honored exactly as the Father (but only God is worthy of Godly praise, so the Son is God), and if we do not honor Him equally with the Father, we do not honor the Father.

 

John 8:57-58 - "Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'"

 

What did God tell Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt when they asked who sent him?  God said, "Tell them "I AM" has sent you.  Now Jesus says, "I AM"!  This is only a claim that God can make and not sin.

 

John 10:29-30 - "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

 

Here, Jesus clearly claims to be equal to The Father. 

 

John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said to Him,'My Lord and my God!'"

 

Notice that in verse 29, Jesus does not rebuke Thomas for assigning the title of God to Him.  Notice that every angel that God ever sent to anyone, when the person to whom they were sent worshiped them, the angel always said, "Don't do that."  Here, Jesus does not stop Thomas.

 

Acts 20:28 - "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

 

God purchased the Church with His own Blood, but it was Jesus' blood, which means that Jesus was/is God.

 

Again, this is just a few of the many passages. 



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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:37 PM

John 5:17-18 - you said the Jewish leaders - by did Jesus make claim to this?

John 5:22-23 - does Jesus claim to be God the Son?

John 8:57-58 - the fall of Adam in the garden, did God have a plan of salvation for man-kind, was this known before Abraham - it was in the mind of God, hence, God's word became flesh in that there was Saviour, even our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, NOT God the Son.
 

1.–“Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).
 
This sentence is quoted to prove that the Lord Jesus was in existence before Abraham – that is, Before Abraham was, Jesus was.
 
Unfortunately for the defenders of this doctrine, this statement by Jesus does not say that. There is a significant difference. And surely a difference with an important meaning. If Jesus had meant to say, “Before Abraham was, I was,” would He not have said so? But by using the rather strange expression, “Before Abraham was, I am,” He must have meant what He said, and there must have been a meaning attaching to it. What does the sentence mean?
 
If we look carefully at the chapter we shall find the meaning quite clearly. How often would these seeming difficulties be swept away by simply reading the context!
 
In verses 24 and 28 an almost similar expression occurs, and it becomes an identical one, when we take into account the reason of the word in these two verses, which appears in italics. In ordinary literature words appearing in italics are to be emphasized, but in the Authorised Version of the Scriptures, it is the notification by the Translators to the reader that there is no authority in the original writings for that word. The Translators were of opinion that they were justified in concluding that it was implied, but they candidly acknowledge by the use of the italics that the word is not definitely authorised: that is, that there’s no word in the original writings for it. Readers are at perfect liberty to omit it in their readings.
 
By exercising this option, we have the precise expression appearing twice in this chapter, other than the sentence under consideration. It will also be found in chapter 13., verse 19.
 
What meaning did Jesus attach to this expression? Verse 28 clearly shows:–
 
    “When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”
 
What did they learn when the Son of man had been lifted up?
 
    “Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God” (Matt. 27:54).
 
But why connect this with Abraham? What was the “day of Christ” that Abraham rejoiced to see (John 8:56), and why should he, who had so long been dead, look forward to such a day?
 
At the birth of Jesus, the father of John, being filled with the Holy Spirit, gives the reason why Jesus connects Abraham with the “day of Christ”:–
 
    “And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, and hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets . . . to perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant, the oath which he sware to our father Abraham” (Luke 1:67-73).
 
The “day of Christ” is spoken of everywhere in Scripture. It is the day when the Lord Jesus shall return from the Father’s presence with the promised times of refreshing, in accordance with His promise, “I will come again.” He comes to perform the mercy promised to the fathers; God’s holy covenant, the oath which he sware unto Abraham.
 
What was the covenant which God sware unto Abraham?
 
    “I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee (whom Paul identifies to be Christ, – ‘and to thy seed, which is Christ,’ – Gal. 3:16), the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God” (Gen. 17:8).
 
Did this promise of Christ originate with God’s promise to Abraham? No; it was given first in Eden, as Gen. 3:15, and Paul’s comments in Titus 1:2, demonstrate.
 
The reason of Jesus in so speaking of Himself in relation to Abraham is quite obvious. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. Why? Because, as we have already seen, it would bring the day of fulfilment of those great and precious promises which God had made unto him.
 
Abraham was the recipient of the promise, but the Lord Jesus was “He” whom God had appointed to fulfil them. Therefore, before Abraham was Christ:–
 
    “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us” (2 Cor. 1:20).
    
    “According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Eph. 3:11).
 
White, P. E. (1996). The Doctrine of the Trinity Analytically Examined and Refuted (pp. 194–197). 

 

John 10:29-30 - Jesus doesn't claim to be on equal terms with the Father - he was equal with God in PURPOSE.

John 20:28 - Context, what does it really mean?

 

4.–“My Lord and my God” (John 20:28).
 
In view of what has been said in this work, on pages 174 and 176, it seems unnecessary to go again into the meanings of these words. “Lord” here is Kurious, Master; and God, Theos, God, or god; as we read in Acts 7:43, “the star of your god Remphan; or in Acts 12:22, concerning Herod; the people thought “It was the voice of a god, and not a man.”
 
Thomas, therefore, in his overwhelming conviction at the actual personal resurrection of his Master, cries out, “My lord, my master, my theos.” None of which words convey in themselves the idea of the Eternal God.
 
If Jesus was the second person of the eternal Godhead, evidence must be produced from elsewhere to prove it. This expression does not do so.
 
White, P. E. (1996). The Doctrine of the Trinity Analytically Examined and Refuted (p. 202). 

Acts 20:28: You said: 

God purchased the Church with His own Blood, but it was Jesus' blood, which means that Jesus was/is God.

 

 

The verse doesn't say this, "that Jesus was/is God", again, context.



#21 Doug Brents

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:04 PM

Do you believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God?  Do you believe that there are no errors in It?  Unless you do, there is no point in our continuing this discussion. 

 

Although there are many passages that explain it clearly (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear), really the only passage you need to prove the Deity of Jesus is John chapter 1.  The Word was with God, the Word was God, the Word became flesh and dwelt among men, John (the baptist) prepared the way for the Word.  Jesus was the ONE for whom John prepared the way. 

 

Jesus is the Word

the Word is God

Jesus IS GOD

End of story!

 

You can dispute the deity of Jesus all day long, but to do so only endangers your soul.  To discount the deity of Jesus is to discount the deity of the Father, because the honor due the Father is due the Son as well.  They are equal in honor, equal in praise, equal in power, and equal in authority.  Jesus was equal with God before He humbled Himself and became a man (Phil 2:6).



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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:09 PM

What does Philippians 2:6 say? 

 

Does it have something to do with what Eve did in the garden - she thought it was not robbery to be equal with God ... to her detriment. 

Christ, on the other hand, however, rather than "re-invent the wheel":
 

PHILIPPIANS 2:6, 7 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”
 
PROBLEM:

Great stress is placed on “morphe” (the Greek word for form) by trinitarians and others like the J.W.’s who teach that Christ had a pre-human existence. It is argued that “in the form of God” means that Christ had the nature of God before his birth, and it was this which he sacrificed in coming to the earth to live as a human.
 
SOLUTION:      
 
    1.      If “in the form of God” means the very nature of God, then Christ could not have been “Very God” while on earth, as trinitarians assert, since this is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth.
 
    2.      The Greek word “morphe” (translated “form”) does not refer to “essential nature” as the trinitarian cause requires. This is proven by the following:
 
      a.      “Eidos”, not “morphe” is the Greek word which conveys the idea of “essential nature”. As Liddell and Scott point out in their lexicon, “morphe” means form, shape, fine, beautiful form or shape, figure, fashion, appearance, outward form or semblance. It is opposed to “Eidos” which means “true form”.

      b.      In the context of this passage, it is stated that Christ “took upon him the form of a servant” (vs. 7). But what is the form of a servant (Grk. “doulos”, a slave)? The “essential nature” of a slave is the same as that of any other human being. The form, therefore, must refer to the semblance or demeanour of a slave as the distinguishing characteristic.

      c.      “morphe” occurs in only one other place in the N.T.—Mark 16:12, and here it clearly does not mean “essential nature”. Jesus appeared “in another form”, but this could not refer to a change of his essential nature since the reason why he appeared to be in another form was because the disciples’ “eyes were holden”. (Luke 24:16 cf. vs. 31). Not even a trinitarian or a J.W. would be prepared to say that Christ’s essential nature was changed after his resurrection and glorification.
 
    3.      How was Christ in the form of God? He had the semblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father’s person. (Heb. 1:3).
 
    4.      Sometimes trinitarians stress that Christ was originally in the form of God—i.e., “being” in the form of God is taken to mean that he was in fact “Very God” before his “incarnation”. The Greek verb “huparchon” refutes this position since it is in the imperfect tense which expresses action yet, or still in course of performance. Time signified by an imperfect tense is of a continual, habitual, repeated action, so that “being in the form of God” means “being, and continuing to be in the form of God”. Christ never ceased to be in the form of God since in semblance and demeanour from his birth he habitually exemplified his Father’s character. Note the use of “huparchon” in the following passages:

      a.      Acts 2:30—“Therefore being a prophet does not mean ”being originally before birth a prophet”, but rather a prophet and continuing to be such.

      b.      1 Cor. 11:7—“Forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God” does not mean “being originally before he was born the image and glory of God”, but rather being the image of God and continuing to be.

      c.      Gal. 2:14—“If thou being a Jew” does not mean “being originally before his birth as a Jew”, but rather if you from the start and continuing to be a Jew.
 
    5.      “Thought it not robbery to be equal with God” is generally acknowledged to be a poor translation. The RSV reads as follows: “He did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” Unlike Eve who grasped after the fruit which was to be desired to make one like God (the “elohim”) to know good and evil, Jesus refused to take the kingdoms of the world without the crucifixion of the flesh and the declaration of the righteousness of his Father. In the Garden of Gethsemane he subjected his will to his Father’s, not arrogating to himself prerogatives that rightly belonged to his Father. (Matt. 26:39).
 
    6.      How did Christ take the form of a servant (slave)? Two passages supply the answer:

      a.      “If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.” (John 13:14).

      b.      “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Hebrews 5:8, 9).
 
          Although Christ was in the form of God in his semblance and demeanour, he took on him the semblance and demeanour of a slave.
 
    7.      “He humbled himself”; “he emptied himself” RSV (vs. 8), refers to Christ’s deliberate choice to submit his will to that of his Father. Christ was worshipped (Matt. 8:2; 9:18), performed the works of God (John 10:37–38), and forgave sins (Matthew 9:2), but he never arrogated to himself authority which had not been delegated to him by the Father. In so doing his example was a powerful lesson in humility to the Philippians. But if Christ “being originally, before his birth, while he was in heaven in the form (essential nature) of God thought at his birth, when he descended into the womb, not to be equal with God, but left the form of God”,1 where is humility demonstrated?
 
Wrested Scriptures [computer files. (1997). (electronic ed.). Northridge, CA.

We also don't believe in an immortal soul.


#23 Librarian

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:15 PM

Doug, you have also answered part of the conundrum "the Word of God" - by His Word, not God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit - His Word was true, and He, as He had promised to Eve, a Saviour was sent - but by God's hand - not by man's, Jesus was obedient to His Father in all things - God provided His Son, in whom He was well pleased - the Son of Man, Jesus, the Son of God and not God the Son.

The doctrine of the Trinity as far as the Word of God is concerned just doesn't make logical sense.

I would suggest if you have the time to have a look at the publications listed in post #8 and read with an open mind.



#24 Doug Brents

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:21 PM

I will leave you with your delusions.  God did not say much very clearly just so that people with no eyes to see could not see the truth, and people with no ears to hear could not hear the truth.  You may believe all the falsehood you want, but scripture is very clear that Jesus is God, Jesus is eternal, Jesus is the Word of God, Jesus is equal to God, Jesus is before time, Jesus is ONE with the Father.

 

The destiny of your eternal soul depends on your acceptance of that simple fact, followed by your obedience of His commands.  As I said, I will leave you to your delusions.  When you decide to accept the truth of the Word of God, come back and we can talk.



#25 Librarian

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:32 PM

Very disingenuous of you, Doug - ever thought that you may be wrong?

Post #8 above, and to read the thoughts of the authors with an open mind.

I would also suggest, and if ever you want to "win one over" - that you cease from the claims of "blasphemy" and "delusions", you are not the judge.

The Word of God, and Jesus, Jesus never ever claims equality with God, quite on the contrary (and also the fact that you failed to produce reasonable proof from the Word) - read the Word, God's Word, the Bible. 






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