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What exactly was Jesus?


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#31 Colter

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:40 PM

I know this probably isn't a new question but I'd like to work through it by discussion if possible so please bear with me.

The background "facts" as I understand them:

Adam was made by God from the dust of the earth and animated by the breath of God (which I'd equate with the Holy Spirit).

All subsequent humans have been formed from the same dust and animative spirit but instead of being formed and animated de novo they are made from cells broken off from the original man. i.e. Eve made from Adam's rib and everyone else from their parents gametes.

Jesus was half made from his mother and I can only assume the other half must have been the first de novo creation of a living cell by the power of the Holy Spirit since the creation.


The questions:

How then was Jesus any more God's son from his conception than Adam was from his creation? Adam was completely God's and yet he sinned. Jesus was only half God's and yet somehow he was made just that bit different from the rest of us, somehow a bit stronger so he could completely resist sin.

What was Jesus? He's clearly completely man and not some kind of half god. Jesus was half from the cursed stock of Adam and half from a new, un-cursed stock. Is that what made him stronger in the face of temptation? If that were the case then Adam should have been able to resist - he wasn't half cursed already - he was totally new and "very good".

What was it about Jesus that made him God's son and not just his creation?


Freckle,

* You've considered the "material" source of Jesus the man and men in general, but you haven't made allowance for the source of personality.

* All men and women of will consciousness are the sons and daughters of the living God; our personality is from the Father, not the dust.

* Man is finite; he has a beginning but not necessarily an ending. The Son of God (his personality) is eternal; he existed as a personality before this world was. He didn't simply have glory and an "idea", he was not "the word" as a mere plan.

* If we are not willing to surrender to the rebirth of the spirit, if we insist on the belief in intellectual doctrine and reject the dimension of the spirit, then yes, we are just dust. Our kingdom is of "this world".


Colter

Edited by Colter, 03 November 2009 - 01:42 PM.

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#32 Jeremy

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:56 PM

Freckle, I think it's great that you're exploring like this. Will try and contribute later in the day.

(By the way, should you would prefer this in a more private area of BTDF, let me know.)
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#33 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:25 PM

I don't know of any "one and only son" verses. I only know of "only begotten son" verses, and they definitely use the word "begotten." The NET Bible unfortunately obscures these by using the phrase "one and only son" instead. It does this for purely theological reasons (primarily in John 1) and the footnotes never adequately address the fact that God has more than one son.


I disagree with you. For reasons see what I put together here.


Thanks Richie - that's exactly what I was getting at and that's reminded me of more of the evidence.
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#34 Richie

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:28 PM

Pleased to be of service.
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#35 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:29 PM

It seems to me that you are finding it difficult because you have arrived at the subject with a preconceived notion that it must be complicated, so that's how it appears to you. We're already delving into strange discussions about cells and "new bits" being added to "old bits", which I think the 1st Century Christians would have simply laughed at.


I thought it was simple and then I started trying to look at it with new eyes and let go of my preconceptions and that's when it got complicated!

Feel free to laugh at me. I talk about cells because that's how I think. Just because they didn't know about them in the 1st century does not mean they are not important.
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#36 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:31 PM

Then will you do what the Bible actually tells you to do? And in private repent sincerely and "ask" for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13), as only when an angel comes to you, and all those who are to be saved have "ministering angels", only then will you truly begin to understand as you study Gods Word.

I have to understand the Bible before I can discern what it telling me to do.
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#37 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:35 PM

Freckle, I think it's great that you're exploring like this. Will try and contribute later in the day.

(By the way, should you would prefer this in a more private area of BTDF, let me know.)


Happy to leave it open and ignore the more off topic stuff unless it becomes overwhelming.
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#38 Evangelion

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:44 PM

It seems to me that you are finding it difficult because you have arrived at the subject with a preconceived notion that it must be complicated, so that's how it appears to you. We're already delving into strange discussions about cells and "new bits" being added to "old bits", which I think the 1st Century Christians would have simply laughed at.


I thought it was simple and then I started trying to look at it with new eyes and let go of my preconceptions and that's when it got complicated!

Feel free to laugh at me. I talk about cells because that's how I think. Just because they didn't know about them in the 1st century does not mean they are not important.


Believe me, I am not laughing at you and I think you've done well in this thread. And look, we're actually making progress!

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#39 Mercia2

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:53 PM

The questions:

How then was Jesus any more God's son from his conception than Adam was from his creation? Adam was completely God's and yet he sinned. Jesus was only half God's and yet somehow he was made just that bit different from the rest of us, somehow a bit stronger so he could completely resist sin.

What was Jesus? He's clearly completely man and not some kind of half god. Jesus was half from the cursed stock of Adam and half from a new, un-cursed stock. Is that what made him stronger in the face of temptation? If that were the case then Adam should have been able to resist - he wasn't half cursed already - he was totally new and "very good".

What was it about Jesus that made him God's son and not just his creation?


Adam was not literally the first man. Genesis 3 is an allegory. Adam was the first to man to manifest the Divine Image. Lord Jesus was the first man to manifest the Divine Image and sustain that by surrendering His will, by Gods power. The Bible is about us doing the same. Only we insist on reading it like half a science book.

Is that what made him stronger in the face of temptation?


It is an allegory (and a 7000 year prophecy about our spiritual Creation) to make a spiritual point. Them sinning was never in doubt. Neither is ours, that is the point. God knows the end from the beginning it was not all a surprise to Him.
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#40 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:49 PM

Adam was not literally the first man. Genesis 3 is an allegory. Adam was the first to man to manifest the Divine Image. Lord Jesus was the first man to manifest the Divine Image and sustain that by surrendering His will, by Gods power. The Bible is about us doing the same. Only we insist on reading it like half a science book. ...
It is an allegory (and a 7000 year prophecy about our spiritual Creation) to make a spiritual point. Them sinning was never in doubt. Neither is ours, that is the point. God knows the end from the beginning it was not all a surprise to Him.


Mercia2 - I set out the basic "facts" from which I was working, and on which I wanted to base this particular discussion, in my first post.

Please respect me and my desire to have a discussion based on Adam and significant portions of the the Bible being literal. If you want to discuss the things you mentioned please start a new thread.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

#41 Mercia2

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 11:01 PM

Adam was not literally the first man. Genesis 3 is an allegory. Adam was the first to man to manifest the Divine Image. Lord Jesus was the first man to manifest the Divine Image and sustain that by surrendering His will, by Gods power. The Bible is about us doing the same. Only we insist on reading it like half a science book. ...
It is an allegory (and a 7000 year prophecy about our spiritual Creation) to make a spiritual point. Them sinning was never in doubt. Neither is ours, that is the point. God knows the end from the beginning it was not all a surprise to Him.


Mercia2 - I set out the basic "facts" from which I was working, and on which I wanted to base this particular discussion, in my first post.

Please respect me and my desire to have a discussion based on Adam and significant portions of the the Bible being literal. If you want to discuss the things you mentioned please start a new thread.

You have a desire to talk about it based on a false assumption and major misunderstanding. Then I can do nothing. Oood bye.
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#42 freckle

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 11:33 PM

You have a desire to talk about it based on a false assumption and major misunderstanding. Then I can do nothing. Oood bye.


Thanks Mercia2. I know it will frustrate you but it's what I truly believe is the right way for me now.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

#43 nonide

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 12:15 AM

Some of Sigma’s quotes-Ok. So Adam had the potential to be like Jesus but failed and Jesus wasn't intrinsically better than Adam. Both were created equally "sons of God".
What happened in the years before Jesus got the Holy Spirit. Did he simply survive all temptation on a huge amount of prayer and reading? What motivated him differently from us in that case?
How then was Jesus any more God's son from his conception than Adam was from his creation? Adam was completely God's and yet he sinned. Jesus was only half God's and yet somehow he was made just that bit different from the rest of us, somehow a bit stronger so he could completely resist sin.

What was Jesus? He's clearly completely man and not some kind of half god. Jesus was half from the cursed stock of Adam and half from a new, un-cursed stock. Is that what made him stronger in the face of temptation? If that were the case then Adam should have been able to resist - he wasn't half cursed already - he was totally new and "very good".

What was it about Jesus that made him God's son and not just his creation?

Response…Wow! What Insightful observations, very impressive and yet at the same time these reasonable questions should have reasonable answers and they do but to understand Jesus and Adam you must take into account how any one is born of God. I say this because you wrote “Adam was completely God's and yet he sinned. Jesus was only half God's and yet somehow he was made just that bit different from the rest of us,”

Jesus explained to Nicodemus that birth from God had nothing to do with one’s human mother and yet when you look at Adam and Jesus being born of God we do the exact opposite of what Jesus said and associate their being born of God with their respective creations so I ask, how is any man born of God and what happens when they are?

#44 LioneDea

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:23 AM

Lione D' ea: Matthew 16:16-17 Read:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Beware of the dogs.

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#45 Matt Smith

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:52 PM

Lione D' ea: Matthew 16:16-17 Read:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Beware of the dogs.


And...?
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#46 LioneDea

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:35 PM


Lione D' ea: Matthew 16:16-17 Read:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Beware of the dogs.


And...?



Lione D' ea: Jesus Christ is Son of God therefore He is God, can God beget a man as you claim Jesus is only a man and not God?

end.

Edited by LioneDea, 11 June 2012 - 03:38 PM.

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#47 Richie

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:23 PM

Solomon is also described as the son of God, and he is not God. True believers in Christ are said to be begotten of God and the are not God, so your logic is entirely faulty.
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#48 LioneDea

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:59 PM

Solomon is also described as the son of God, and he is not God. True believers in Christ are said to be begotten of God and the are not God, so your logic is entirely faulty.



Lione D' ea: Men of God and angels are called in the Bible as son but not begotten Son, because in the Bible there is different which called son in begotten Son. And the only begotten Son which mention in whole Bible is the Christ who came from the bosom of the Father before he cometh into the world.

end.

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#49 rightgirl06

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:33 AM

Jesus is the literal word of God that became flesh. In the beginning God said and it was done; his words were alive. His words and his spirit are a part of him. God sent his words to be born into flesh as a living testimony and to bring the house of Israel back to him. You cannot come to God if you do not receive his word (Jesus Christ/Jeshua). God's word was born and is his son made of and from him.


#50 nonide

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:10 PM

Sigma writes-How then was Jesus any more God's son from his conception than Adam was from his creation? Response...The short answer is that neither the creation of Adam nor the conception of Jesus had anything to do with them being sonsof God. No man from Adam to Jesus could be born of God which again has nothing to do with creation or conception, one is born of Godby seed. 1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. When Adam sinned his seed was lost and he was rendered dead as is every one not born of God. Those born of God after Jesus are born of God in Jesus name and do not lose their seed if they sin. 1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because Gods seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. Sigma writes-What was Jesus? He's clearly completely man and not some kind of half god. Response...Again, the short answer is as any man born of God Jesus was a human being but no longer a natural man that cannot receivethe things of God. 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned Sigma writes- What was it about Jesus that made him God's son and not just his creation? Response...Jesus as any man became a son when he was born of God by receiving a seed from God but the seed he received contained thelife of God Himself, Jesus did not receive eternal life as a gift from God when he rose from the dead he had it by seed and when he rose from the dead he was the eternal life. John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Jesus had life in himself by seed which became manifest by the resurrection. 1 John 1: 1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

Edited by nonide, 20 May 2014 - 01:11 PM.





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