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Romans 1:20 and Doctrinal Implications - NT


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#1 Librarian

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:33 AM

Christadelphians, as believers in the Word of God, the Bible, believe in "the good news of the kingdom of God".

We believe:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

We also believe:

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:" Hebrews 6:18

Theistic Evolutionists believe that science assertions have priority over Bible Statements.

Question

How do Theistic Evolutionists reconcile the Bible Statement:

"Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

#2 Mercia2

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 10:12 AM

Christadelphians, as believers in the Word of God, the Bible, believe in "the good news of the kingdom of God".

We believe:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

We also believe:

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:" Hebrews 6:18

Theistic Evolutionists believe that science assertions have priority over Bible Statements.

Question

How do Theistic Evolutionists reconcile the Bible Statement:

"Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)


God made everything, the process was evolution with us as the planned final objective.
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#3 Kay

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 12:28 AM


Christadelphians, as believers in the Word of God, the Bible, believe in “the good news of the kingdom of God”.

We believe:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” 2 Timothy 3:16

We also believe:

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” Titus 1:2

“That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:” Hebrews 6:18

Theistic Evolutionists believe that science assertions have priority over Bible Statements.

Question

How do Theistic Evolutionists reconcile the Bible Statement:

"Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)


God made everything, the process was evolution with us as the planned final objective.


Again, it is really for Christadelphians of the Theistic Evolution persuasion to answer.

Notwithstanding, your comment:

You can't say "God made everything" - because if it was evolution - according to science it is undirected, also the fact if God MADE then the process wasn't evolution.

Your statement therefore is illogical.
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#4 Kay

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 12:29 AM

Again, the question remains unanswered:

Theistic Evolutionists believe that science assertions have priority over Bible Statements.

Question

How do Theistic Evolutionists reconcile the Bible Statement:

"Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#5 Librarian

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:03 AM

:kay:

#6 violin

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

Kay - you are obviously (for reasons of your own) trying to reignite the evolution debate, but your response to Mercia above shows why it is entirely pointless here. You are telling me that I can't say "God made everything via evolution", I assert that I can and do. End of debate. God didn't consult either of us before the Big Bang / In the Beginning and frankly I have other things in my life to get on with. Let's agree to differ on this one

#7 Kay

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:20 AM

Kay - you are obviously (for reasons of your own) trying to reignite the evolution debate, but your response to Mercia above shows why it is entirely pointless here. You are telling me that I can't say "God made everything via evolution", I assert that I can and do. End of debate. God didn't consult either of us before the Big Bang / In the Beginning and frankly I have other things in my life to get on with. Let's agree to differ on this one


violin - there is nothing stopping having a discussion about evolution, YEC, OEC or other aspects on this forum - providing it is discussion of the many issues involved.

Mercia2, has various other aspects of belief not in keeping with what we believe to be true so it is neither here nor there in the scheme of things and the discussion of our belief structure.

What some of us are trying to get to the crux of is how such belief, and that of evolution affects OUR doctrine - and it does;

One can very well say that "God made everything via evolution" - but the fact is God doesn't say that at all, man says that, or rather, that all came into being through evolution - and God is omitted.

Again, the doctrinal aspects need to be discussed which are the many before the matter of scientific philosophy is added to the equation - that is, adopting a belief that is absent from the Word of God and as example:

- God created man in his image and likeness

- evolution says that man came into being through common descent (and some absent that the early records are factual - which will also open another thread ANE)

So, where is the truth - man's word or God's Word?
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#8 Mark Taunton

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:55 PM

Kay - you are obviously (for reasons of your own) trying to reignite the evolution debate, but your response to Mercia above shows why it is entirely pointless here. You are telling me that I can't say "God made everything via evolution", I assert that I can and do. End of debate.


No, Kay is not telling you that. She is saying (and I agree with this) that since you do say that, you should be able to justify your claim in relation to particular scriptural statements which at least appear to be in disagreement with it. Since this is a Bible discussion forum, and you - I presume - uphold the BIble's teachings (because that's what Christadelphians agree to do), it is entirely reasonable to ask you to explain this inconsistency.

Simply saying you are entitled to your belief, and that no-one is allowed to challenge you about it, is hardly an adequate response, especially because you are openly asserting this belief (on this forum at least), rather then keeping it to yourself. Had you not said anything, no-one would have cause to raise it with you, but you have, so we do...

Edited by Mark Taunton, 06 September 2012 - 04:13 AM.


#9 nsr

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:08 PM

Kay - you are obviously (for reasons of your own) trying to reignite the evolution debate, but your response to Mercia above shows why it is entirely pointless here.

Well no, because evolution isn't really the issue. The issue is what belief in evolution means for our understanding of the rest of Scripture. I personally am not bothered what mechanism God used to create life - as far as I'm concerned all that matters is he did it - but if that mechanism being evolution requires a change to our understanding of Scripture, then that needs to be examined carefully. Obviously a correct understanding of God's word was not intended to only be available to man once he had reached a certain level of scientific knowledge, so a requirement for any *fundamental* changes to Scriptural understanding would be sufficient to set off red warning lights for me.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#10 freckle

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:36 AM


God made everything, the process was evolution with us as the planned final objective.


Again, it is really for Christadelphians of the Theistic Evolution persuasion to answer.

Notwithstanding, your comment:

You can't say "God made everything" - because if it was evolution - according to science it is undirected, also the fact if God MADE then the process wasn't evolution.

Your statement therefore is illogical.


God clearly made everything - because that's what he says he did and I don't think he's a liar.
God isn't very specific on the exact mechanics of creation.
The currently available scientific evidence suggests that the mechanism involved evolution.
Evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive - to state that is to mis-understand what evolution is.
Something "lit the touch paper" that set life in motion. Some people think it was chance, I believe it was God. Evolution (as I understand it) can only happen AFTER the first event of life.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

#11 Kay

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:03 PM

freckle, good to see you here after an absence for a while :)

It is rather seems like tautology to say God made everything and then evolution or implied in the sense that current scientific thinking (whether some scientists believe in God or not) God is absent from the equation, which doesn't make logical sense.

No-one disagrees with "limited common descent" that is a fact - but we now have brethren running with:

- Genesis (the first several chapters aren't to be taken literally), man came into being by evolution alone

- Genesis, there was an evolved race, and then God apparently decided to create Adam and Eve (a special creation)

- Genesis, God took two people out of the "evolved" race

and on we go ... the Bible says nothing about it - and science is absent on a reason other than assumption how Man gained his intelligence.

Interesting and reading this tonight:

Here, courtesy of crev dot info, is a very interesting statement from the article in the Wall St. Journal entitled Junk DNA’ debunked”,

“The unexpected level of activity seen in the genomic hinterlands may also help explain what makes us human. Compared with other species, the human genome has about 30 times as much “junk DNA.””


If this is true, wouldn’t you say it has absolutely huge implications for the chimp to man evolutionary story? I mean, come on, we’re talking 30 times more regulatory elements than animals, including chimps! I don’t know what kind of a percentage difference this will turn out to be, but one thing is for sure, it is no where close to the 98% story that evolutionists have been using as evidence to support common descent!

If I am understanding this properly, this would indicate a vast impassable gap between us and chimps, especially given the evolutionary timeline that only allows, what — something like only 6 million years or so for the change from apes to man to have taken place? Simply impossible.

I’ll look forward to the implications of this research as more is learned, evaluated, and published. I think it is going to make the chimp to human idea sound absolutely incredible!


And the highlighted section is the crux of it - and also that of the verses quoted in this section - there are more to come - the Word of God speaks nothing about man evolving from a lesser creature, nor are there any indications in the Word of God that this happened, other than the opinion of man, which you state, science says so, not God.

I rather think that the latest information regarding the Encode Project is significant - though apparently those promoting evolution are running scarred "creationists will run with this" - but the very obvious thing is, that what we have been lead to believe by science in the past, is not reality - and of course, there is so much more to explore, because man still is in the infancy of knowing the inner workings.

Again, mechanism, the God spoke and it was so ... real beings - and such is reflected too in the fossil record, and "man" has to continually "change his mind" - "what was thought" is no longer reality.

So, in the Words of Romans ... does man in his arrogance know more than God - has man really the "answer"?

"Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

But man says it is through a process of evolution - and such excludes God ... because evolution is the "god" (philosophy) appealed to - and that is rather the larger issue in the brotherhood, those promoting TE.

Interesting, from years ago, and those promoting TE here ... it was always whether the supposed "Junk" and whether denied now or not - that is the thought in science about "junk" - that certain aspects may have been "switches" ... which seems to be the case, and therefore again evidence of the brilliance of HIS Creation and Design.

Then there is another prediction ... perhaps a little later, but it moves closer.

However, again, our interest is that God's Word is true - and men and women 6000 (+/-) 10000 years ago were and would have been capable of understanding God's word and works, and not a mention of evolution, God breathed and it was so ... that is the dilemma in the case being argued - Science versus the Bible account (again, not speaking about the age of the earth and the Universe).

From my point of view - God's Word is logical, how man came into being in the sense that he was a being that would know God ... science, in their opinion (again whether some believe in God or not is not the issue here) but they exclude God, instead implying all came into being through
"random mutation filtered by natural selection" - it just doesn't make logical sense, and in view of recent findings and also in view of the consistency of the Bible record - the Daily Readings of a few days ago and comment:

"and demonstrate that all 66 books of the Bible are one unit."

With the proposal by some (and science) - the one "unit" of God's Word is called into question - Beginnings - why Jesus had to come - and Ending.

"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#12 freckle

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:47 PM

freckle, good to see you here after an absence for a while :)

It is rather seems like tautology to say God made everything and then evolution or implied in the sense that current scientific thinking (whether some scientists believe in God or not) God is absent from the equation, which doesn't make logical sense.


Thanks Kay.

I guess I believe God made evolution. God designed the atoms and the physical laws and mechanisms by which life began and perpetuates. It's very beautiful and wonderful. Evolution is not much harder to grasp than reproduction. Life reproduces without specific new creation all the time!

No-one disagrees with "limited common descent" that is a fact - but we now have brethren running with:

- Genesis (the first several chapters aren't to be taken literally), man came into being by evolution alone

- Genesis, there was an evolved race, and then God apparently decided to create Adam and Eve (a special creation)

- Genesis, God took two people out of the "evolved" race

and on we go ... the Bible says nothing about it - and science is absent on a reason other than assumption how Man gained his intelligence.

It's my current personal view that humans might have been a special creation but my faith still holds either way.


Interesting and reading this tonight:...

I rather think that the latest information regarding the Encode Project is significant - though apparently those promoting evolution are running scarred "creationists will run with this" - but the very obvious thing is, that what we have been lead to believe by science in the past, is not reality - and of course, there is so much more to explore, because man still is in the infancy of knowing the inner workings.

Any good scientist is never scared to change their mind in the face of new evidence. What a good scientist doesn't like is if people try and make data say more than it does.

I don't think Romans 1:20 is about creation.

But man says it is through a process of evolution - and such excludes God ... because evolution is the "god" (philosophy) appealed to - and that is rather the larger issue in the brotherhood, those promoting TE.

Believing in evolution does NOT have to exclude a belief in God. Anyone who says this has misunderstood what evolution is.
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#13 Kay

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:46 AM

Thanks, freckle, for your response :)

Romans 1:20, more back to the chapter in context, and even reference to
Psalm 19:1-3 - that man in his wisdom (those who say there is no God) can't see:

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard."

Many of the most vocal, as we know and for the basis of evolution simply don't believe in God, or God had a hand in His Creation rather, it was by nature, the natural.

As example and in these and previous discussions those appealed to were the likes of Larry Moran, Richard Dawkins, P.Z. Meyers, Jerry Coyne etcetera, hence, that any discussions or the dispute between God and nature would always see the outcome as “Evolution is True” over God’s account – so there is an inbuilt bias, though of course an inbuilt bias for those who believe in God, those in a number of areas this is becoming superficial in saying that we have to re-interpret the Bible rather than accept the account on face value, and in this I mean that of Concordism and Accommodation.

Whether some brethren believe in evolution or not (though the belief in God is not questioned) - the theory of evolution (no-one misunderstands it, the beginnings and outcome) removes God from the scientific viewpoint and that seems to be the dispute.

We are speaking of science, evolutionary biology more than anything else - the "peer reviewed" papers remove God, so do many vocal in the scientific arena as well as in the media and give evolution the wisdom which seems to reflect a number of verses in the Bible, that some defer to the wisdom of men.

As you say (and you being in the scientific field yourself) that a good scientist is never scared to change their mind, but often it takes a lifetime to change the minds of others depending.

More interesting is that a number of molecular biologists are changing their minds (and with concern apparently by those who disbelieve in God especially) regarding the evidence they see before them, that is, the modern theory of evolution is insufficient to explain the life processes which is assumed but not observed. What is observed is complexity against the claim of natural selection (that evolution is and has been the creator through common descent).

Again, of course, as you say, that evolution doesn't exclude one's belief in God, but the belief in such adopts man's philosophy, that it was the natural process in place, that moved the lesser to becoming the complex, mankind eventually.

The discrepancy is that God simply doesn't say that (because we are also speaking about mankind, though you ascribe to mankind being a special creation) - but also, in your opening:

"God designed the atoms and the physical laws and mechanisms by which life began and perpetuates."

So, we had to have in place very specific things for life (also as God describes in the preparation for life).

From the point of science, evolutionary how realistic is it and this is assuming that one believes in God, that after setting all in order (by God) – all life was to then evolve (through common descent, and take millions upon millions of years – finally with man as the outcome).

It just doesn’t make logical sense other than if some in science disbelieve in God.

Science (and scientists) without God – what is the only explanation for life on earth?

That somehow through some process there was a Big Bang, that the earth just per chance saw favourable conditions that life could somehow take place – because that is the essence of the argument whether some in science believe in God or not, and most now in the brotherhood seem for us to take evolution as fact, but then it is intertwined with other interpretations (of evolution and then wrest the scriptures) which again don’t make logical sense from the perspective of God’s Word and faith in God - that God has told us the truth.

The creation of life immediately, or in “bursts” which more seems to be reflected in the fossil record - that this is exactly what seems to have been done. Fish are fish, birds are birds, dinosaurs are dinosaurs, spiders are spiders, bats are bats,
mites are still mites.

Again, no-one has any difficulty with "limited common descent" - change within a grouping of animals, plants, birds and fish and is very evident in what we see around and about us.

The supposed transitional definitions – man has decided upon those to fit in his theory of how life came about and in the absence of God.

Hence, does Romans 1:20 apply to the thinking by men – yes, it seems to, nothing much has really changed in Recorded History or rather, man’s opinion of his own self-ascribed cleverness, and yes, man can be very clever – but how does man’s ability compare to God’s – the creator of all – how wide is the gap, and man telling God, or second guessing Him or disbelieving that there is a God, because man knows better.

"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33




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