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Jesus is God, why don't we worship him?


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#1 pete

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 01:39 PM

I think in our bid to defend against Trinity, we consciously undermine the greatness of our Lord Jesus Christ. We spend every bit of effort to show the clear line between God and the son...But Bible made it clear that God and Jesus are now one especially since after the resurrection.

 

There are 2 extremes:

 

1. Those who overemphasise the divinity of Christ or the Trinitarians,

 

and

 

2. Those who dwell much on the humanity of Christ, his nature and sacrifice, eg. the Christadelphians.

 

Although God is the almighty, God has promoted Jesus to a great height that it is no longer a sin to worship Jesus as God.

 

"But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."


Return, O YHWH,deliver MY soul:Oh! Save me for thy mercy's sake

#2 Simple

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 03:27 AM

I think in our bid to defend against Trinity, we consciously undermine the greatness of our Lord Jesus Christ. We spend every bit of effort to show the clear line between God and the son...But Bible made it clear that God and Jesus are now one especially since after the resurrection.

 

There are 2 extremes:

 

1. Those who overemphasise the divinity of Christ or the Trinitarians,

 

and

 

2. Those who dwell much on the humanity of Christ, his nature and sacrifice, eg. the Christadelphians.

 

Although God is the almighty, God has promoted Jesus to a great height that it is no longer a sin to worship Jesus as God.

 

"But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."

 

Hi, Pete. :)

 

The point of emphasis is to be correctly placed upon the man who was Jesus for the reason that apart from the righteous image of God which Adam lost to us being re-established no man could be set right with God.

 

Jesus was the replacement for our human father Adam who had corrupted himself away from that holy image of God and it's righteousness.

 

That truth comes to us in far more of the scriptures than just Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:45.   If we would bear this thought in mind as we read we will see that.

 

It is very important to understand that we cannot be set right with God and yet continue to sin.  1 John 1:5-6 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth..."  (Compare  1 John 3:6)
 

 

Yet we today find that the many have actually turned God's grace as shown to us in his Son into a sort of acceptance of sin preaching that God's love is unconditional so that he loves us just as we are.

 

Now, one person might be OK with that because they understand that God's loving us while we were "yet sinners" implies that he loved us so that we could cease being sinners, he recognizing that many of us sin merely because we do not know his righteousness and so we act in ignorance.

 

But another person sees that as God will love us even if we do not cease from sin in response to his mercy.  That then places them in the following catagory:

 

Romans 2:

4  "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11  For there is no respect of persons with God."

We are making a serious mistake if we fail to recognize that His love for us despite our ignorance is summed up here, as follows:

Acts 17:30-31 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

 

So that showing by grace of an unconditional love which covered over sin was only temporary for the purpose of setting us on the road to recovery from our ignorance of his righteousness and the sin which was allowed by that ignorance.

 

Trinity defenders have composed some very appealing delusions of ideas which can if we let them cause us to lose sight of the fact that God is holy and sin has no place in his presence.   His love is showing grace to us that we might choose willingly to leave away from sin, preferring his presence by his righteousness in our lives as more valuable than the momentary ilusive pleasures of sin.


Edited by Simple, 27 September 2015 - 03:32 AM.


#3 pete

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 05:10 PM

 

I think in our bid to defend against Trinity, we consciously undermine the greatness of our Lord Jesus Christ. We spend every bit of effort to show the clear line between God and the son...But Bible made it clear that God and Jesus are now one especially since after the resurrection.

 

There are 2 extremes:

 

1. Those who overemphasise the divinity of Christ or the Trinitarians,

 

and

 

2. Those who dwell much on the humanity of Christ, his nature and sacrifice, eg. the Christadelphians.

 

Although God is the almighty, God has promoted Jesus to a great height that it is no longer a sin to worship Jesus as God.

 

"But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."

 

Hi, Pete. :)

 

The point of emphasis is to be correctly placed upon the man who was Jesus for the reason that apart from the righteous image of God which Adam lost to us being re-established no man could be set right with God.

 

Jesus was the replacement for our human father Adam who had corrupted himself away from that holy image of God and it's righteousness.

 

That truth comes to us in far more of the scriptures than just Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:45.   If we would bear this thought in mind as we read we will see that.

 

It is very important to understand that we cannot be set right with God and yet continue to sin.  1 John 1:5-6 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth..."  (Compare  1 John 3:6)
 

 

Yet we today find that the many have actually turned God's grace as shown to us in his Son into a sort of acceptance of sin preaching that God's love is unconditional so that he loves us just as we are.

 

Now, one person might be OK with that because they understand that God's loving us while we were "yet sinners" implies that he loved us so that we could cease being sinners, he recognizing that many of us sin merely because we do not know his righteousness and so we act in ignorance.

 

But another person sees that as God will love us even if we do not cease from sin in response to his mercy.  That then places them in the following catagory:

 

Romans 2:

4  "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11  For there is no respect of persons with God."

We are making a serious mistake if we fail to recognize that His love for us despite our ignorance is summed up here, as follows:

Acts 17:30-31 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

 

So that showing by grace of an unconditional love which covered over sin was only temporary for the purpose of setting us on the road to recovery from our ignorance of his righteousness and the sin which was allowed by that ignorance.

 

Trinity defenders have composed some very appealing delusions of ideas which can if we let them cause us to lose sight of the fact that God is holy and sin has no place in his presence.   His love is showing grace to us that we might choose willingly to leave away from sin, preferring his presence by his righteousness in our lives as more valuable than the momentary ilusive pleasures of sin.

 

 

I think the humanity of Christ and his sacrificial work is well understood.

 

Now, Jesus has the name of his father. He can now be addressed as 'God' which doesn't mean that he is equal to God. But the Bible is clear that even the angels worship Jesus now.

 

So the question is, how can Christadelphians 'worship' Jesus?

 

Can we pray to him? Can we thank him for the work he did? How do the angels worship Jesus?


Return, O YHWH,deliver MY soul:Oh! Save me for thy mercy's sake

#4 Guest_micaiah_*

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 05:53 AM

 
You are right it is often difficult to find a proper balance when it comes to scriptural doctrines, as some are, according to Peter "hard to understand".
Thankfully we have God's word to set things straight assuming we accept it as the ultimate authority influencing our beliefs.
 
I would like to point out that in Hebrew and Greek there are a number of words with different meaning often transliterated "worship". Some translations  completely overlook at times the distinction and nuances intended. 
 
A few examples:
 
ʽa·vadh′: Serve
hish·ta·chawah′ :Bow down,or do obedience
sa·ghadh′: Prostate oneself
la·treu′o: Rendering sacred service
pro·sky·ne′o: Obeisance to a king 
eu·se·be′o: Venerat, revere or Godly devotion
se·ba′zo·mai: revere; venerate; worship
the·o·se′bei·a: combination of “God” and “service (like Gottesdienst)
qan·naʼ: exclusive devotion; jealous
 
From this incomplete list , we can see how misunderstanding could occur with a translations using the generic transliteration "worship" .
For instance in Daniel 2:46 Nebuchadnezzar was paying homage "sa·ghadh"(prostrating himself) to Daniel.
 
Another example is (Genesis 19:1) . . .When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down (hish·ta·chawah) with his face to the earth. . .
 
The expression "qan.na' however is used only in reference to the creator and to no one else.
 
(Exodus 20:5) . . .You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion (Heb., ʼEl qan·naʼ′; Gr., The·os′ ze·lo·tes′).
 
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels render obeisance (pro·sky·ne′o)  to the resurrected Jesus Christ. Many translations of this text here wrongly render pro·sky·ne′o as “worship,” while some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE). 
 
No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.
 
Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must give your worship [form of pro·sky·ne′o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.
 
 in Psalm 97:7 or Hebrews 1:6 the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in harmony with the original language, either in Psalm 97:7 or Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hish·ta·chawah′ and pro·sky·ne′o.
 
Jesus upheld this dictate(to worship only God) numerous times but  nowhere is Jesus’ exclusive devotion to his Father exemplified more than in what is written of him at 1 Corinthians 15:24,28, where it says that, after his heavenly Kingdom rule he (Jesus) will put down all authority...and subjects himself to Him so that “God may be all things to everyone.”
 
As regards to prayer, ” The entire Scriptural record testifies that Jehovah is the One to whom prayer should be directed to (Ps 5:1, 2;) and that he is the “Hearer of prayer” (Ps 65:2; 66:19) .
Jesus confirmed this point saying we should pray to the father (Mt 6:9). Not a single scripture support praying to anyone else.
 


#5 Doug Brents

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 01:45 PM

I think in our bid to defend against Trinity, we consciously undermine the greatness of our Lord Jesus Christ. We spend every bit of effort to show the clear line between God and the son...But Bible made it clear that God and Jesus are now one especially since after the resurrection.

 

There are 2 extremes:

 

1. Those who overemphasise the divinity of Christ or the Trinitarians,

 

and

 

2. Those who dwell much on the humanity of Christ, his nature and sacrifice, eg. the Christadelphians.

 

Although God is the almighty, God has promoted Jesus to a great height that it is no longer a sin to worship Jesus as God.

 

"But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."

 

Why is it our goal to "defend against Trinity"?  There are at least two manifestations (most believe three) of God:  The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.  Scripture is clear that the Father and the Son are ONE, equal, and eternal.  The Spirit may be a third "personality", or He may be simply the part of God that He allows to live in us.  Either way, God is still ONE, even if He has multiple manifestations.  We know that Jesus and the Father are separate, because Jesus (on Earth) prayed to the Father (in Heaven).  Yet Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."  Jesus also said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."  Both of these are claims to be equal to God.  Now if Jesus claimed to be equal to God, but was not, then He was not our perfect sacrifice (which would be required to remove our sins), so we cannot be forgiven, and must still wait for our redeemer.  But if Jesus was equal to God, then His claim to be equal to God was not a sin, He was our perfect sacrifice, and you are sinning by refusing to account to Him the glory due Him as ONE with God.



#6 Librarian

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:08 AM

Could God die on the cross?

 

Did Jesus claim equality with God, what do the quotes you have posted really mean and in context?

"I and the Father are one." ? 

 

"Before Abraham was, I AM." ?

 

Do these quotes actually claim "equality" or is something else being said ?



#7 Doug Brents

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:49 PM

Could God die on the cross?

 

Did Jesus claim equality with God, what do the quotes you have posted really mean and in context?

"I and the Father are one." ? 

 

"Before Abraham was, I AM." ?

 

Do these quotes actually claim "equality" or is something else being said ?

 

What does it really mean to die?  When God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit of the Tree, what did He mean?  Obviously, since we both believe that He cannot lie, He was not referring to physical death, because they did not fall over dead when they ate the fruit.  So what did He mean?  He meant separation from Himself.  Death (spiritual death) is nothing more than separation from God; physical death is the separation of our spirit from our body.  Yes, the God / Man in the form of Jesus could die a physical death.  He also suffered spiritual death because He became sin for us, and the Father turned His back on Jesus while Jesus was on the cross.  So, YES, God could die on the cross.

 

What do the quotes I have listed mean in context?  They mean that Jesus claimed to be equal to God the Father.  He came from a position of equality with God (Phil 2:5-7), humbled Himself to the point of becoming a human and dying on the cross, and rose back to the Father where He now sits with the Father on the Father's throne again equal to God (see many passages in Revelation).

 

You do realize that for Jesus to be our saving sacrifice, He had to be PERFECT, without spot or blemish, without sin, faultless.  But if He was not God, and at any time He even came close to claiming to be God by saying something like "before Abraham was, I AM", then He would not have been sinless, and His sacrifice would have been worthless, we would not be saved, and would still have no hope of seeing Heaven.  But Jesus didn't claim equality with God only once.  He claimed equality with God at least 3 or 4 times, publicly, openly.  The people tried to stone Him for His claims at least 4 or 5 different times in Scripture (forgive me, I have never counted all the times the leaders wanted to stone Him), so they recognized His claims for what they were, real claims to be equal to God.  They only saw Him as a man, and if all He was was a man, then He should have been stoned to death.  But He really was/is God, so His claim is not unwarranted or sinful.



#8 Librarian

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 01:49 AM

Please refer to this thread rather than repeated comments in various threads (thanks):

Questions for Christadelphians

 

When the Scripture, the Word of God is devoid of teaching Trinity - on the contrary - it teaches God is God alone, his son is Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of God and not God the Son.

In the Daily Readings (scheduled for tomorrow):

John 20:17 Jesus replied,26 “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

26 tn Grk “Jesus said to her.”

 
Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 20:17). Biblical Studies Press.


#9 fredjames

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:27 AM

Could God die on the cross?

 

 

The flesh that the Word was made to, died on the Cross and was buried, and which was at the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. While JESUS as God, at the very same time 'live', and ministered to the spirits who were imprisoned from Noah's time.

 

Did Jesus claim equality with God, what do the quotes you have posted really mean and in context?

"I and the Father are one." ? 

 

"Before Abraham was, I AM." ?

 

Do these quotes actually claim "equality" or is something else being said ?

 

 

According to Scripture doctrine, JESUS claimed to be equal with GOD and that is why the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy.  But Scripture say that He never make Himself equal to GOD, because He was made lower than the angels for awhile, when He was made man and the flesh and blood became the sin bearer of.the world. Nevertheless,, inwardly He is still the LORD from Heaven, the Word who was made flesh, in 'spirit'..



#10 fredjames

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

 

Please refer to this thread rather than repeated comments in various threads (thanks):

Questions for Christadelphians

 

When the Scripture, the Word of God is devoid of teaching Trinity - on the contrary - it teaches God is God alone, his son is Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of God and not God the Son.

 

Those are you own preception quoting from some of the Scriptures within the New Testament, in order to support your denominational dogma of your forefathers passed on. And God the SON is clearly there in the same Scriptures, you are 'shortsightedly'  ignoring.

 

In the Daily Readings (scheduled for tomorrow):

John 20:17 Jesus replied,26 “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

26 tn Grk “Jesus said to her.”

 

 
That is again, when He was made lower than the angels for awhile, as fellow man sinners, and uttering to man, honoring GOD..
 
 
 

 






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