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Date of the book of Job


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#1 The

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:00 AM

I have heard the view that Job knew of the exodus and passing through the Red Sea, which would put the book after that event. Is anyone aware of any verses that could suggest this?

#2 Kay

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:20 PM

I have heard the view that Job knew of the exodus and passing through the Red Sea, which would put the book after that event. Is anyone aware of any verses that could suggest this?


The, welcome to the Forum.

Your question?

No passages in the Bible support this - none that I am aware of.
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#3 The

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 01:44 PM


I have heard the view that Job knew of the exodus and passing through the Red Sea, which would put the book after that event. Is anyone aware of any verses that could suggest this?


The, welcome to the Forum.

Your question?

No passages in the Bible support this - none that I am aware of.


I have heard a few verses quoted, but I don't know where they are. One of them may have been Job14v11, which isn't refering to that.

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

#4 Matt Smith

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:27 PM



I have heard the view that Job knew of the exodus and passing through the Red Sea, which would put the book after that event. Is anyone aware of any verses that could suggest this?


The, welcome to the Forum.

Your question?

No passages in the Bible support this - none that I am aware of.


I have heard a few verses quoted, but I don't know where they are. One of them may have been Job14v11, which isn't refering to that.

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:


Quite right. It is not referring to that...

Job 14:11 "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up... (NASB)
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#5 Kakashi

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:00 AM

The idea put forward by Bro. John Pople is that Job 26:12-13 is linked to Egypt (The word here is often transliterated Rahab, but is not the name of that woman of Jericho) by Isa 30:7.

More importantly, there is also Isa 51:9, which seems to contain part of that Job quote almost verbatim, and in context is clearly speaking of the crossing of the Red Sea.

The NETBibleTagger doesn't help in this case, because the NET helpfully translates the word rather than transliterating it like other translations do. I'd like to know what you guys make of that. It certainly convinced me.
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#6 Matt Smith

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 02:01 PM

The idea put forward by Bro. John Pople is that Job 26:12-13 is linked to Egypt (The word here is often transliterated Rahab, but is not the name of that woman of Jericho) by Isa 30:7.

More importantly, there is also Isa 51:9, which seems to contain part of that Job quote almost verbatim, and in context is clearly speaking of the crossing of the Red Sea.

The NETBibleTagger doesn't help in this case, because the NET helpfully translates the word rather than transliterating it like other translations do. I'd like to know what you guys make of that. It certainly convinced me.


I don't know what Bro Pople has written (I haven't read anything more than the intro to the book) but the word means "proud" and part of a series of related words all of which have to do with "pride" and "strength" (see also Job 9v13 - "If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him."). The fact that the prophet Isaiah takes up this word to describe Egypt has nothing to do with the dating of Job as far as I can see.
Matt Smith
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#7 Kakashi

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 09:09 AM

I don't know what Bro Pople has written (I haven't read anything more than the intro to the book) but the word means "proud" and part of a series of related words all of which have to do with "pride" and "strength" (see also Job 9v13 - "If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him."). The fact that the prophet Isaiah takes up this word to describe Egypt has nothing to do with the dating of Job as far as I can see.


Plenty of what Bro. Pople has to say is speculative, as he points out himself. I should clarify my position; he convinced me that this is a reasonable idea, not that it's certain. So I don't intend to convince you, only to provide additional information.

You're right, the word does mean 'proud', and it is related to other words like it. But the NET Bible has this to say about Job 26:13.

“Rahab” (רָהַב), the mythical sea monster that represents the forces of chaos in ancient Near Eastern literature. In the translation the words “the great sea monster” have been supplied appositionally in order to clarify “Rahab.”



If this Rahab is well-recognised as a sea-beast, it's quite possible that both Job and Isaiah are referring to the same beast. It depends if you read Job as polemic writing or not, I suppose. What do you think? Is it worth exploring the literature further?
The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and accurately.
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#8 nsr

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 09:39 AM

Have you heard the Pople speak on Job or have you read his book? I heard him at UKYC and I found him quite convincing as well. He was the first person who actually made me realise what the "point" of the book might be.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#9 The

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:09 AM


I don't know what Bro Pople has written (I haven't read anything more than the intro to the book) but the word means "proud" and part of a series of related words all of which have to do with "pride" and "strength" (see also Job 9v13 - "If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him."). The fact that the prophet Isaiah takes up this word to describe Egypt has nothing to do with the dating of Job as far as I can see.


Plenty of what Bro. Pople has to say is speculative, as he points out himself. I should clarify my position; he convinced me that this is a reasonable idea, not that it's certain. So I don't intend to convince you, only to provide additional information.


I remember listening to John Poples talks, that was probably where I heard the idea from.

As to his speculation - He speculated a lot and we don't need to speculate to understand the bible; I think the bible tells us everything it wants us to know without the need for speculation. For that reason im a bit wary on several problems we try to solve, like trying to determine the exact identity of Satan, or trying to determine the date of the book; im fairly convinced that neither of these questions has an answer, ie, God hasn't revealed them to us because they aren't important to the interpretation of Job, but would be interested if anyone could prove anything.

#10 Kakashi

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:11 AM

Have you heard the Pople speak on Job or have you read his book? I heard him at UKYC and I found him quite convincing as well. He was the first person who actually made me realise what the "point" of the book might be.

Yep, I heard him earlier this year at the North Island Bible School here in New Zealand, having read his book beforehand. I haven't heard a better explanation of Job either.

I remember listening to John Poples talks, that was probably where I heard the idea from.

As to his speculation - He speculated a lot and we don't need to speculate to understand the bible; I think the bible tells us everything it wants us to know without the need for speculation. For that reason im a bit wary on several problems we try to solve, like trying to determine the exact identity of Satan, or trying to determine the date of the book; im fairly convinced that neither of these questions has an answer, ie, God hasn't revealed them to us because they aren't important to the interpretation of Job, but would be interested if anyone could prove anything.

I think the Pople's central ideas were fairly solid, (including human pride starring as Satan, which is important to Pople's understanding of Job) and when something wasn't clear-cut he generally said so. As you say, there are things which aren't answered in the story - or are only hinted at - because they aren't important to it's purpose. So, to answer the dating thing to your satisfaction you might need to go to extra-Biblical sources. How badly do you want an answer, and what kind of sources are you willing to trust? :)

EDIT: Moved the summary list to a later post for tidy-ness sake.

Edited by Kakashi, 23 May 2011 - 11:41 AM.

The best way to convince another is
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#11 The

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:26 AM


I remember listening to John Poples talks, that was probably where I heard the idea from.

As to his speculation - He speculated a lot and we don't need to speculate to understand the bible; I think the bible tells us everything it wants us to know without the need for speculation. For that reason im a bit wary on several problems we try to solve, like trying to determine the exact identity of Satan, or trying to determine the date of the book; im fairly convinced that neither of these questions has an answer, ie, God hasn't revealed them to us because they aren't important to the interpretation of Job, but would be interested if anyone could prove anything.

I think the Pople's central ideas were fairly solid, (including human pride starring as Satan, which is important to Pople's understanding of Job) and when something wasn't clear-cut he generally said so. As you say, there are things which aren't answered in the story - or are only hinted at - because they aren't important to it's purpose. So, to answer the dating thing to your satisfaction you might need to go to extra-Biblical sources. How badly do you want an answer, and what kind of sources are you willing to trust? :)


I didn't badly want an answer to when it was written. From my reading of Job, there are no verses that I know of that date the book, which is slightly odd because most speakers on Job try and date it.

As to what kind of sources I would trust, only solid evidence, so probably just my bible.

#12 Kakashi

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:38 AM

I didn't badly want an answer to when it was written. From my reading of Job, there are no verses that I know of that date the book, which is slightly odd because most speakers on Job try and date it.

As to what kind of sources I would trust, only solid evidence, so probably just my bible.

Alright. Perhaps it'd be worth pursuing the 'serpent from the sea' idea, but perhaps not. I think speakers try to date it because it's one of the mysteries people ask about :) Pople seems to have dated it because it made a nice little echo if it was true.

Here is a summary of the Pople's thoughts about the dating of Job which haven't been mentioned already:
  • Job 42:16 says Job saw his children to the fourth generation, and lived 140 years after his calamity. Gen 5: Pre flood average to see 4 generations = 410 yrs. Gen 10: Post flood average to see 4 generations = 125 yrs. This suggests that Job was after the Flood.
  • The Satan in the 3 friends would indeed be travelling 'to and fro' in the Earth if the story happened during the wilderness wanderings.
  • Job's themes follow the same general pattern as the wilderness wanderings: The children of God get lost, are tempted and wander in the desert, finally coming back to where they began, outside God’s house.
  • It could be that the friends had heard Moses' speech of Deu 28, and used the blessings/cursings as the source of their Doctrine of Retribution.
  • Job's sufferings occur first in the city and country, then in lack of food, and then in the market and at home ('going out and coming in'). This is remarkably similar to the order of the curses in Deu 28.

Edited by Kakashi, 23 May 2011 - 11:42 AM.

The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and accurately.
-- Benjamin Franklin

#13 andrewneileen

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:37 AM


I didn't badly want an answer to when it was written. From my reading of Job, there are no verses that I know of that date the book, which is slightly odd because most speakers on Job try and date it.

As to what kind of sources I would trust, only solid evidence, so probably just my bible.

Alright. Perhaps it'd be worth pursuing the 'serpent from the sea' idea, but perhaps not. I think speakers try to date it because it's one of the mysteries people ask about :) Pople seems to have dated it because it made a nice little echo if it was true.

Here is a summary of the Pople's thoughts about the dating of Job which haven't been mentioned already:
  • Job 42:16 says Job saw his children to the fourth generation, and lived 140 years after his calamity. Gen 5: Pre flood average to see 4 generations = 410 yrs. Gen 10: Post flood average to see 4 generations = 125 yrs. This suggests that Job was after the Flood.
  • The Satan in the 3 friends would indeed be travelling 'to and fro' in the Earth if the story happened during the wilderness wanderings.
  • Job's themes follow the same general pattern as the wilderness wanderings: The children of God get lost, are tempted and wander in the desert, finally coming back to where they began, outside God’s house.
  • It could be that the friends had heard Moses' speech of Deu 28, and used the blessings/cursings as the source of their Doctrine of Retribution.
  • Job's sufferings occur first in the city and country, then in lack of food, and then in the market and at home ('going out and coming in'). This is remarkably similar to the order of the curses in Deu 28.



Hello

None of these points will prove a date for the writing of Job because they are either about the setting of Job or about intertextual links. However, the two types of point here (setting, intertextual) have different value for "sensing" the date of writing. If you read Job with an eye on the other OT books to which it has most links, you should get a feel for its date of writing based on these links. The setting of Job is no guide.

On another note, the Rahab links are about Egypt and part of a pattern of links between Job and Isaiah.

Andrew

#14 The

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 10:41 AM

I found only one verse that gives us an idea as to the date of the book.

Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

So it was written after Adam transgressed in Eden.

Otherwise, I don't think we can prove a specific date for it.

#15 David Brown

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

It seems as though Job is written as a drama / parable rather than a real historical series of events - it's surely much too stylised to be the latter. That doesn't help us date it but it does perhaps make the answer matter less.

#16 Kakashi

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 03:25 AM

It seems as though Job is written as a drama / parable rather than a real historical series of events - it's surely much too stylised to be the latter. That doesn't help us date it but it does perhaps make the answer matter less.

Pople's point of view is that it's a dramatised historical event, because if there were never real characters, then surely the impact for us would be less powerful.

But of course, we often take comfort and lessons from non-historical stories.

Anyway, it doesn't seem very important either way. I've done enough speculation on this subject for now :)
The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and accurately.
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#17 Biblaridion

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 04:52 AM


It seems as though Job is written as a drama / parable rather than a real historical series of events - it's surely much too stylised to be the latter. That doesn't help us date it but it does perhaps make the answer matter less.

Pople's point of view is that it's a dramatised historical event, because if there were never real characters, then surely the impact for us would be less powerful.

But of course, we often take comfort and lessons from non-historical stories.

Anyway, it doesn't seem very important either way. I've done enough speculation on this subject for now :)


Hello,

What if it is a dramatization of a real historical event? What if the character of Job is based on Isaiah's Suffering Servant who was innocent but afflicted? If Job is parabolic the lessons become "timeless". If the Suffering Servant is a portrayl of King Hezekiah (as many suggest) then it is grounded in real historical events. I believe that Andrew Perry has suggested that light can be thrown on the matter if inter-textual research is done with other OT books. Andrew himself has done this in his book on Job and has found correspondaces with Isaiah - he comes to the conclusion that Job is a parabolic dramatization of Hezekiah's plight. Hezekiah was the King who did evrything right but was confronted with death, Assyrian invasion and was betrayed by his colleagues. The plight of Hezekiah raised important theological questions. Like Job...Hezekiah was about to die without any children. Would this nulify the Davidic Covenant? Why did Hezekiah/Job/Suffering Servant have to suffer when he had done nothing wrong?


Paul

#18 Biblaridion

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 05:10 AM

Hello,

I found a book review that I did some time back on Andrew's book on Job (see attached). The review was never published or circulated but I believe that Andrew's book deserves consideration. Obviously my review does not do justice to the in depth analysis that the book presents but it will give readers an idea of where the book is coming from. I know that Andrew will not promote his own work and is probably concerned not to "rock the boat" for those who prefer a more literal reading but I think his work expands our understanding of Job and therefore should gain more recognition. If there are any mistakes (or mis-representations) in the review they are mine because Andrew has not seen this.

Paul

Attached Files



#19 Kay

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:51 PM

Thanks, Biblaridion, for the attached file - appreciated :)
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#20 The

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:57 AM

I found the verse:

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

#21 Biblaridion

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:31 PM

I found the verse:

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:


Hello,

If the book of Job is indeed a parabolic drama based on the reign of Hezekiah (see previous posts and PDF) then the "flood" is a metaphor for the Assyrian invasion, which is likened to the overflowing Euphrates that inundates the land:

Isaiah 28:2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one, Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.

NKJ Isaiah 28:17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.


NKJ Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.




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