200 replies to this topic

[Jeremy]

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

'lest they be molested'

after all, men are liable to do that. to be walking along a street and see a beautiful woman across the road, desire kicks in and then possibly he will attempt to touch her, or rape, molest assault her.

That doesn't say much for the men in cultures where women have to cover up!

[Fortigurn]

EliYah, on Jan 1 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

haha - PICS OF WOMEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING! LOL

You've put your finger right on it. Without pics, how do you know what they wore, especially since the text to which you're referring says nothing of veils with eye slits? We know what 1st to 5th century veils looked like, and they didn't have eye slits.

[Jeremy]

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

haha - PICS OF WOMEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING! LOL

There were plenty at Pompeii when I went there. The Graeco-Roman world was full of portrayals of women wasn't it?

(Not sure if I might have missed the point here - sorry if so.)

[Fortigurn]

Jeremy, on Jan 1 2009, 01:07 AM, said:

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

haha - PICS OF WOMEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING! LOL

There were plenty at Pompeii when I went there. The Graeco-Roman world was full of portrayals of women wasn't it?

Quite.

[Fortigurn]

I have to say, the evidence just keeps stacking up.

[Huldah]

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

hahaha, then they're telling you porkies!

sure, there isn't a prescribed punishment for not wearing the hijab in the qur'an

BUT it is a command

'lest they be molested'

after all, men are liable to do that. to be walking along a street and see a beautiful woman across the road, desire kicks in and then possibly he will attempt to touch her, or rape, molest assault her. where the hijab is generally worn, this occurs less often, thus ensuring the protection of women from perverts.

anyhow, I can prove that women of the Old Testament among the Children of Israel, would have traditionally covered their heads too. not to mention that the veils with slits for eyes were worn by 1st century christians, and contemporary at the time of Paul, when he in the New Testament commanded the wearing of the VEIL to COVER YOUR HEADS. and yes, ive heard the prostitute argument, but that only explains half the argument he was making, not all of it.

hope i didnt diverge too much

Oh dear, Eliyah. I had better make sure that I tell them all from you to don their hijabs then

Isn't it funny how in 34 years, I've never been harrassed on the street for walking around without my hair covered up - Muslim area or not. That includes over 12 years of teaching in Muslim areas and dealing with fathers, uncles and older brothers who've never given me hassle on account of my hair in parent evenings.

On a side note though, the two naughtiest boys in my form both have mothers who wear the jilibab. Any connection there do you think?

[Fortigurn]

Huldah, on Jan 1 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

On a side note though, the two naughtiest boys in my form both have mothers who wear the jilibab. Any connection there do you think?

Well if they've never seen her, they might not know who she is.

[Alethinos]

Fortigurn, on Dec 31 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jan 1 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

On a side note though, the two naughtiest boys in my form both have mothers who wear the jilibab. Any connection there do you think?

Well if they've never seen her, they might not know who she is.

Fort, I have to confess you do not often make me laugh, but this time .....

All the Best
Alethinos

[Huldah]

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

sure, there isn't a prescribed punishment for not wearing the hijab in the qur'an

BUT it is a command

'lest they be molested'

after all, men are liable to do that. to be walking along a street and see a beautiful woman across the road, desire kicks in and then possibly he will attempt to touch her, or rape, molest assault her. where the hijab is generally worn, this occurs less often, thus ensuring the protection of women from perverts.

Eliyah, were you thinking of this verse?

Qur'an 33.59 said:

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِىُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَٰجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَٰبِيبِهِنَّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰٓ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ ۗ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُورًۭا رَّحِيمًۭا ﴿٩٥

If so, then I'd conclude that over-garment could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Edited by Huldah, 31 December 2008 - 07:43 PM.

[Evangelion]

Alethinos, on Dec 31 2008, 12:47 PM, said:

Ev this is what I said

Alethinos, on Dec 29 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Dec 29 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Dawn, on Dec 29 2008, 06:36 PM, said:

The rise of Islam and how it has spread in the last 20 years is phenomenal - especially in the West. Just look how many mosques there are in the UK!!!

That is not about the rise of Islam. It's about the rise of Muslim immigrants.

You lost me there, what is the difference? Surely a rise in Muslim Immigration = the rise of Islam, or to be more precise the rise of Islamic influence in the world? When I moved to the North West 10 years ago that influence was already very evident, but now the force is almost overwhelming.

I said “almost”, I was expressing an opinion based on my own personal experience, and on reflection I would say “palpable” would have been a better word to use, that is actually what I meant. Most of the evidence I can give you would be purely “anecdotal”, although I do have a bunch of News cuttings somewhere on this subject. Just because it is anecdotal does not make it wrong, have you not noticed that most people who write News Papers have a political bias?! I read News papers, and I listen to the BBC but there is nothing like being “on the ground” for getting a perspective.

Yes, I've and noticed that most people who read newspapers have a political bias too. By the way, where in the north west do you live? I wasn't aware that it had become such a hotbed of Muslim influence. I mean, it's not as if you're in Barnsley or Bradford, is it?

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20 years ago how many Mosques do you think there were in the UK? How many schools do you think there were that were almost, if not completely Muslim? How many Muslim politicians & Lawyers were there? How many women wore the Hijab, etc. etc.?

Fewer mosques; not so many part- or wholly-Muslim schools; even fewer MP politicians and lawyers than we have now; not as many women wearing the hijab. And your point is?

By the way, do you know how many Muslim MPs there are now? Less than 20. Less than 20 Muslim MPs in a nation with a population of 60 million. How much influence do you think those guys have? Honestly? I'll tell you: virtually none.

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Are you saying that this has no influence on the local culture, politics, economy etc? Surely not? thus all we are talking about is the level of that influence.

On the local culture? A tiny influence; the local culture becomes more culturally diverse. That's all. It does not lose its central, dominating identity (ie. British). On politics? Negligible. Got any examples? I didn't think so. On the economy? A tiny influence, predominantly positive. More people = greater economic stimulation and that's always good. It also means greater business opportunities and greater diversity of goods and services.

I had asked you for examples. You haven't given me any. I've been offered an anecdote and a vague feeling that something is rotten in the state of Great Britain. There is simply no substance to what you are saying.

And now I'll ask you something: can you tell me the SINGLE MOST POWERFUL CULTURAL INFLUENCE on the UK in the past 20 years? It is well documented, so I'm sure you're familiar with it. I'd like to see if you can tell me what it is.

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At the end of the day I view the rise of Muslim influence in the UK and Europe as one of the many sign’s of the times, and in essence I don’t think it is something that those looking for the Lord’s return need worry about.

I might too, if I could see any evidence of this alleged "Muslim influence". As it is, I just have to keep scratching my head and wondering what on Earth you're talking about.

[Huldah]

I can hear Shakespeare turning in his grave...

[Evangelion]

Dawn, on Dec 31 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

Ev - I can't really answer your questions specifically so I guess you win! lol......

I'm more in tune with Alethinos on it - it's more from personal experience and just a sensing of the creeping influence of Islamization and that things are different from 20-30 years ago. I'm glad Alethinos feels the same as I do as it helps me to realise it's not all in my head and I'm not going completely loopy over it! ....and as to whether it's anything to do with how God will judge any nation - I really do not know. It was just a thought. God has used Islam in the past as a judgement, He *might* do it again was what crossed my mind. If He does He does, if He doesn't He doesn't.

You see, this is what it comes down to: a general feeling that things are not as they should be. This is a very common phenomenon, and well documented. It's the sort of thing that led people like Enoch Powell to say the things they said.

But mere feelings do not equate to facts, let alone factual evidence.

You know, it's a funny thing... I have had this exact same conversation twice in the last year. The only difference was that it took place on two other forums (entirely unconnected to each other) and the subject was not Muslims but East European immigrants. Virtually everything that you and Alethinos have said about Muslims, was said about East European immigrants. And although I repeatedly asked for evidence to support the many assertions being thrown around, I never actually received any. It was all just a vague jumble of feelings, anecdotes, assumptions and speculations.

Isn't that interesting?

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The muslims reported us to the police for showing this Documentary at a Holocuast Memorial Service in January 2005.

Ah yes, I remember you telling us about that. Well, the police have a duty to investigate, and the Muslims were just idiots for reasons with which we are all doubtless familiar. Reason prevailed, and you guys were vindicated. End of story.

[Evangelion]

Huldah, on Dec 31 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

I can hear Shakespeare turning in his grave...

I blame the Muslims!

[Evangelion]

Dawn, on Dec 31 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

....and Ev wants me to believe the French don't try to appease them? ....they only sacked one of the editors over it.

One single French editor removed by one single French newspaper... hardly evidence of appeasement. If the French had been aiming for appeasement, they wouldn't have published them in the first place!

The owner got cold feet because he feared for his cash cow. It was purely his decision; the newspaper itself was unrepentant. That is not evidence of French appeasement. That is evidence of one cowardly individual who just happens to hold executive power over majority of people who take an entirely different view.

[Evangelion]

EliYah, on Dec 31 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

hahaha, then they're telling you porkies!

sure, there isn't a prescribed punishment for not wearing the hijab in the qur'an

BUT it is a command

'lest they be molested'

after all, men are liable to do that. to be walking along a street and see a beautiful woman across the road, desire kicks in and then possibly he will attempt to touch her, or rape, molest assault her. where the hijab is generally worn, this occurs less often, thus ensuring the protection of women from perverts.

anyhow, I can prove that women of the Old Testament among the Children of Israel, would have traditionally covered their heads too. not to mention that the veils with slits for eyes were worn by 1st century christians, and contemporary at the time of Paul, when he in the New Testament commanded the wearing of the VEIL to COVER YOUR HEADS. and yes, ive heard the prostitute argument, but that only explains half the argument he was making, not all of it.

hope i didnt diverge too much

It's OK Eliyah; Mohammed was only talking about Middle Eastern men, who are often have very little respect for women. Mohammed was not familiar with Western men, who are generally civilised, having been raised in a culture which values and respects women. It's just one of those little things which separates the Middle East from the West: we treat women like human beings, while the Middle East treats them like animals and personal belongings.

I'm sure you've noticed that Western women regularly walk the streets without fear, despite remaining largely uncovered (by Muslim standards). This is the result of successful socialisation. In a society which respects women, women's bodies will be generally respected. In a society which does not respect women (ie. just about every society in the Middle East), women will be molested, beaten, murdered, abused and treated like animals. As, indeed, they so frequently are.

Islam has a great many things to learn from the West. The correct treatment of women is just one of these.

[Huldah]

Evangelion, on Dec 31 2008, 08:54 PM, said:

Huldah, on Dec 31 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

I can hear Shakespeare turning in his grave...

I blame the Muslims!

<<<loud cough!>>>
Shakespeare is turning in his grave because you called his country a state!!!

[Evangelion]

He'd give me credit for adapting his line.

"State" is another term for "government" or "political system".

[Dawn]

Huldah, on Dec 31 2008, 03:42 PM, said:

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I would not like to see the hajib being worn by muslim women in British towns and cities.

Do you mean the hijab, Dawn? The hijab is the headscarf. It has absolutely no effect on me to see a Muslim woman wearing one out and about, it seems perfectly reasonable for them to wear them as it is for modesty purposes. I'd be more concerned if I saw the jilibab (long outfit with an eye-slit) or burka (Afghanistan version with a net for the eyes) being widely worn. Most of my Muslim friends don't wear the hijab anyway, and say that it is not strictly taught in the Qur'an for them to wear it.

...lol yes I mean the hijab (trust me to get it the wrong way round) - but really I didn't mean it as I don't mind just the head scarf - I think they look quite nice. I evidently meant the jilibab - long black frock with slit eyes. I don't like it and I don't want to see women in this country dressed like that.

[Dawn]

Evangelion, on Dec 31 2008, 07:53 PM, said:

Dawn, on Dec 31 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

Ev - I can't really answer your questions specifically so I guess you win! lol......

I'm more in tune with Alethinos on it - it's more from personal experience and just a sensing of the creeping influence of Islamization and that things are different from 20-30 years ago. I'm glad Alethinos feels the same as I do as it helps me to realise it's not all in my head and I'm not going completely loopy over it! ....and as to whether it's anything to do with how God will judge any nation - I really do not know. It was just a thought. God has used Islam in the past as a judgement, He *might* do it again was what crossed my mind. If He does He does, if He doesn't He doesn't.

You see, this is what it comes down to: a general feeling that things are not as they should be. This is a very common phenomenon, and well documented. It's the sort of thing that led people like Enoch Powell to say the things they said.

But mere feelings do not equate to facts, let alone factual evidence.

You know, it's a funny thing... I have had this exact same conversation twice in the last year. The only difference was that it took place on two other forums (entirely unconnected to each other) and the subject was not Muslims but East European immigrants. Virtually everything that you and Alethinos have said about Muslims, was said about East European immigrants. And although I repeatedly asked for evidence to support the many assertions being thrown around, I never actually received any. It was all just a vague jumble of feelings, anecdotes, assumptions and speculations.

Isn't that interesting?

Well I've lived in the Uk for nearly half a century and there have always been minority groups. You've only lived in the UK a few years, so you wouldn't know what it was like living here 20 or 30 years ago. The big threat back then was the IRA and I well remember the Birmingham pub bombings and we all had to keep an eye open from strange packages on buses and in shops, streets and litter bins - but that era has passed thankfully. There was a bit of trouble with ethnic riots in Handsworth in Birmingham about 25 years ago, but that's all I ever remember on that issue.

There are all kinds of minority groups in the UK - Chinese, Jamaicans (including Rastafarians), Poles, Yugoslavians (well, it used to be Yugoslavia - my aunt's husband was a refugee from there), plus many other ethnic groups, but never ever have any of them ever brain-washed a mentally ill person to convert to their religion who then tried to blow himself up in a restaurant 30 miles from where I live, and none of them have ever reported me to the police before. Those are not speculations or assumptions - they are facts.

As for anecdotes and jumble of vague feelings - maybe, but I've never had them before regarding any other minority group. Not even the Irish when they were blowing up Birmingham people who went out for an innocent drink.

So yes, I find muslim influence intrusive in a way that no other minority group is or ever has been.

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The muslims reported us to the police for showing this Documentary at a Holocuast Memorial Service in January 2005.

Ah yes, I remember you telling us about that. Well, the police have a duty to investigate, and the Muslims were just idiots for reasons with which we are all doubtless familiar. Reason prevailed, and you guys were vindicated. End of story.

I hope so yes. The diversity officer assured us they were harmless moderate muslims that reported us.

Let's hope they don't get hold of any more mentally unstable people and convert and brainwash them about promises of paradise with the virgins.

[Huldah]

Poor Handsworth always getting blamed for the riots. They actually happened in Lozells, but few people know that because of the media.

[Huldah]

Dawn, on Dec 31 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

...lol yes I mean the hijab (trust me to get it the wrong way round) - but really I didn't mean it as I don't mind just the head scarf - I think they look quite nice. I evidently meant the jilibab - long black frock with slit eyes. I don't like it and I don't want to see women in this country dressed like that.

I have to say that I don't like it either. You don't get that many round where we live wearing it, but on the East side of Birmingham there is more of it.

[Evangelion]

Dawn, on Dec 31 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Well I've lived in the Uk for nearly half a century and there have always been minority groups. You've only lived in the UK a few years, so you wouldn't know what it was like living here 20 or 30 years ago. The big threat back then was the IRA and I well remember the Birmingham pub bombings and we all had to keep an eye open from strange packages on buses and in shops, streets and litter bins - but that era has passed thankfully. There was a bit of trouble with ethnic riots in Handsworth in Birmingham about 25 years ago, but that's all I ever remember on that issue.

There are all kinds of minority groups in the UK - Chinese, Jamaicans (including Rastafarians), Poles, Yugoslavians (well, it used to be Yugoslavia - my aunt's husband was a refugee from there), plus many other ethnic groups, but never ever have any of them ever brain-washed a mentally ill person to convert to their religion who then tried to blow himself up in a restaurant 30 miles from where I live, and none of them have ever reported me to the police before. Those are not speculations or assumptions - they are facts.

That's true, the IRA has never done this (at least, to my knowledge) and of course they haven't reported you to the police (because they have no reason to do so). But IRA has launched more terrorist attacks on British soil than any Muslim group which has ever existed, and it has brainwashed hundreds (perhaps thousands) of willing terrorist volunteers throughout the decades.

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As for anecdotes and jumble of vague feelings - maybe, but I've never had them before regarding any other minority group. Not even the Irish when they were blowing up Birmingham people who went out for an innocent drink.

That is because the IRA's cultural and religious background is very familiar to you. It does not feel different; there is no sense of "otherness". Their religion does not intimidate you because it is your own religion (albeit hopelessly screwed by heresy). Their culture does not intimidate you because it is almost identical to your own culture. They have the same coloured skin; they have the same coloured hair; they speak the same language; they wear the same clothes; their society corresponds to yours. Additionally, the IRA always possessed a political wing with which the British government maintained dialogue, and it usually (always?) gave warnings before an attack.

The Islamic threat appears as an unknown or unfamiliar menace, and so appears more dangerous than it actually is. Even the last attempted terrorist attack on Britain (nightclub/airport) was hopelessly amateurish affair, killing only one person (a terrorist). The IRA were never so disorganised. When they attacked, they did the job properly.

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So yes, I find muslim influence intrusive in a way that no other minority group is or ever has been.

Based on a mere two incidents?

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I hope so yes. The diversity officer assured us they were harmless moderate muslims that reported us.

If they'd been extremists, they wouldn't have gone to the police; you would have been notified of their displeasure by more unconventional means.

[Dawn]

Evangelion, on Jan 1 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

That's true, the IRA has never done this (at least, to my knowledge) and of course they haven't reported you to the police (because they have no reason to do so). But IRA has launched more terrorist attacks on British soil than any Muslim group which has ever existed, and it has brainwashed hundreds (perhaps thousands) of willing terrorist volunteers throughout the decades.

That is because the IRA's cultural and religious background is very familiar to you. It does not feel different; there is no sense of "otherness". Their religion does not intimidate you because it is your own religion (albeit hopelessly screwed by heresy). Their culture does not intimidate you because it is almost identical to your own culture. They have the same coloured skin; they have the same coloured hair; they speak the same language; they wear the same clothes; their society corresponds to yours. Additionally, the IRA always possessed a political wing with which the British government maintained dialogue, and it usually (always?) gave warnings before an attack.

Usually they gave warnings yes. Soemthing went wrong with the pub bombings - can't remember what it was.

But I agree - with the IRA people knew what it was and no-one talked of "the rise of Catholicism" or linked it to anything to do with the religion. We all knew what they wanted - the question was how to give it them without losing face. And at one time, Gerry Adams voice wasn't even allowed on the TV or Radio - it always had to be an actor reading out his words.

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The Islamic threat appears as an unknown or unfamiliar menace, and so appears more dangerous than it actually is.

Yes I'm sure that is true. I guess maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age .....nevertheless, the Islamic influence is something which is spreading, whereas IRA stuffs were very localised. I guess I identify the most with Wilders words about his Fitna film where he described as

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a call to shake off the creeping tyranny of Islamization, and a push for a Leitkultur, a culture that “draws on Christian, Jewish, humanistic traditions and that poses a challenge to the Islamic problem.”

....I really identify with that - especially the words "creeping tyranny" - just about sums it up for me. The IRA were terrorists of the highest order, but it was no "creeping tyranny" spreading northwards, southwards, westwards and eastwards across the globe.

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So yes, I find muslim influence intrusive in a way that no other minority group is or ever has been.

Based on a mere two incidents?

Yes. Two is enough for me. I'd rather not have any more thanks!

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If they'd been extremists, they wouldn't have gone to the police; you would have been notified of their displeasure by more unconventional means.

A truer statement you could not have made.

[Dawn]

Hudders, on Jan 1 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jan 1 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

Poor Handsworth always getting blamed for the riots. They actually happened in Lozells, but few people know that because of the media.

I knew it was Lozells.

You dont wanna walk down the main road through Lozells in broad day light, never mind at night time.

.....well some very good friends of mine live in Handsworth and they've had some hairy moments I can tell you!

....but it's true, it was Lozells where it happened. I was working the Central Office of Information (a Government Press Office) at the time of the riots in 1985, and the Press Officer who put out the reports was happy to use Handsworth as the location of the riots, along with the rest of the media. I don't know why this was - maybe they thought everyone would know where Handsworth was mentally: whereas Lozells is one of those odd city places one can't quite mentally locate in the brain when you think of it.

I used to do a lot of my VAT visits in Lozells. I felt very conspicuous walking those streets with my brief case, though never had any problems. Female VAT officers had no choice but to undertake Lozells VAT visits due to "equal opportunites". Just because we were women, we couldn't refuse VAT visits in dangerous places - we got paid the same as the men, so we did the same job as the men. However, we were offered one of those screeching alarms - which we all declined. The worse thing that ever happened to me on a VAT visit was that someone nicked my wheel trims from my Maestro while I was in someone's house doing a VAT visit. Cheeky blighters.

[Fortigurn]

Alethinos, on Jan 1 2009, 03:27 AM, said:

Fortigurn, on Dec 31 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jan 1 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

On a side note though, the two naughtiest boys in my form both have mothers who wear the jilibab. Any connection there do you think?

Well if they've never seen her, they might not know who she is.

Fort, I have to confess you do not often make me laugh, but this time .....

[Huldah]

Dawn, on Jan 1 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Hudders, on Jan 1 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jan 1 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

Poor Handsworth always getting blamed for the riots. They actually happened in Lozells, but few people know that because of the media.

I knew it was Lozells.

You dont wanna walk down the main road through Lozells in broad day light, never mind at night time.

.....well some very good friends of mine live in Handsworth and they've had some hairy moments I can tell you!

....but it's true, it was Lozells where it happened. I was working the Central Office of Information (a Government Press Office) at the time of the riots in 1985, and the Press Officer who put out the reports was happy to use Handsworth as the location of the riots, along with the rest of the media. I don't know why this was - maybe they thought everyone would know where Handsworth was mentally: whereas Lozells is one of those odd city places one can't quite mentally locate in the brain when you think of it.

I used to do a lot of my VAT visits in Lozells. I felt very conspicuous walking those streets with my brief case, though never had any problems. Female VAT officers had no choice but to undertake Lozells VAT visits due to "equal opportunites". Just because we were women, we couldn't refuse VAT visits in dangerous places - we got paid the same as the men, so we did the same job as the men. However, we were offered one of those screeching alarms - which we all declined. The worse thing that ever happened to me on a VAT visit was that someone nicked my wheel trims from my Maestro while I was in someone's house doing a VAT visit. Cheeky blighters.

Ha! That's Lozells for you!!! I used to live in Handsworth, and that was not without incident (usually my wing mirror getting damaged, or my car getting an unwelcome lick of paint), but it was not really a 'riot' place. The only place to avoid was the park at night time, but that's common sense anywhere these days.

[Alethinos]

Evangelion, on Dec 31 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

Alethinos, on Dec 31 2008, 12:47 PM, said:

Ev this is what I said

Alethinos, on Dec 29 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Dec 29 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Dawn, on Dec 29 2008, 06:36 PM, said:

The rise of Islam and how it has spread in the last 20 years is phenomenal - especially in the West. Just look how many mosques there are in the UK!!!

That is not about the rise of Islam. It's about the rise of Muslim immigrants.

You lost me there, what is the difference? Surely a rise in Muslim Immigration = the rise of Islam, or to be more precise the rise of Islamic influence in the world? When I moved to the North West 10 years ago that influence was already very evident, but now the force is almost overwhelming.

I said “almost”, I was expressing an opinion based on my own personal experience, and on reflection I would say “palpable” would have been a better word to use, that is actually what I meant. Most of the evidence I can give you would be purely “anecdotal”, although I do have a bunch of News cuttings somewhere on this subject. Just because it is anecdotal does not make it wrong, have you not noticed that most people who write News Papers have a political bias?! I read News papers, and I listen to the BBC but there is nothing like being “on the ground” for getting a perspective.

Yes, I've and noticed that most people who read newspapers have a political bias too. By the way, where in the north west do you live? I wasn't aware that it had become such a hotbed of Muslim influence. I mean, it's not as if you're in Barnsley or Bradford, is it?

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20 years ago how many Mosques do you think there were in the UK? How many schools do you think there were that were almost, if not completely Muslim? How many Muslim politicians & Lawyers were there? How many women wore the Hijab, etc. etc.?

Fewer mosques; not so many part- or wholly-Muslim schools; even fewer MP politicians and lawyers than we have now; not as many women wearing the hijab. And your point is?

By the way, do you know how many Muslim MPs there are now? Less than 20. Less than 20 Muslim MPs in a nation with a population of 60 million. How much influence do you think those guys have? Honestly? I'll tell you: virtually none.

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Are you saying that this has no influence on the local culture, politics, economy etc? Surely not? thus all we are talking about is the level of that influence.

On the local culture? A tiny influence; the local culture becomes more culturally diverse. That's all. It does not lose its central, dominating identity (ie. British). On politics? Negligible. Got any examples? I didn't think so. On the economy? A tiny influence, predominantly positive. More people = greater economic stimulation and that's always good. It also means greater business opportunities and greater diversity of goods and services.

I had asked you for examples. You haven't given me any. I've been offered an anecdote and a vague feeling that something is rotten in the state of Great Britain. There is simply no substance to what you are saying.

And now I'll ask you something: can you tell me the SINGLE MOST POWERFUL CULTURAL INFLUENCE on the UK in the past 20 years? It is well documented, so I'm sure you're familiar with it. I'd like to see if you can tell me what it is.

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At the end of the day I view the rise of Muslim influence in the UK and Europe as one of the many sign’s of the times, and in essence I don’t think it is something that those looking for the Lord’s return need worry about.

I might too, if I could see any evidence of this alleged "Muslim influence". As it is, I just have to keep scratching my head and wondering what on Earth you're talking about.

Ev

Sorry no time today Have you ever been to Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, & Oldham & etc..., and BTW how long have you lived in the UK? How can you tell the difference if you were not here 20, 30 years ago?!! I guess you just have to rely on the testimony of others or all those wonderful "Statistics" which of course are infallible.

All The Best
Alethinos

[Dawn]

I watched the Fitna movie this afternoon on google video (and if I'd watched it earlier i would have seen that those pics i pasted up a few days ago were much older than i thought!). It's only about 17 minutes long.

It wasn't pleasant viewing, but I was glad I watched it as it does show that others feel the same about the "creeping tyranny" of Islam. Including the Netherlands. That far north. I never realised the Islamic influence was that strong in Holland. I was rather shocked.

[Gileade]

Indulgence of Islam is harming society

Interesting article on Islam and the Uk.

[Alethinos]

Gileade, on Jan 1 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

Indulgence of Islam is harming society

Interesting article on Islam and the Uk.

Gileade

Thanks very much for that, I have some cuttings of similar articles but have not had time to scan them in.

All the Best
Alethinos