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Matthew 28:18 - Christ is omnipotent (God)


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#91 Jesse2W

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

Wrong? The Lord Jesus has all-power. An all-powerful being is Almighty...that means God.
Theos in Ephesians 4:6 refers to the Father. Some passages say that the Father is supreme while others say that Christ is.


The misses the point that there is an EXCEPTION to Christ's authority - the Father is that exception. There is no exception to God's authority - Christ is included.

Think about what the following scriptures are saying about the supremacy of the Father toward Christ. Now can you even find one clear cerse that says Jesus is equal with God in authority as explicitly as these verses contradict that idea?


1 Corinthians 11:3
John 15:1

1 Corinthians 3:23
1 Corinthians 15:27 (this is the key)
Jesus has a God and that denotes superiority. You will never find the Father calling somone "my God."
Jesus was sent by God.
Jesus was a slave of God (Isaiah 53).

If God and Jesus are equal, then where is Jesus comanding the Father? It is a line of authority - not a system of checks and balances.



#92 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:27 PM

Your constant appeal to your opinions reveals a sever lack of depth of theological perspective.

Do you have anything else to offer besides these silly accusations? I'd much rather discuss the Bible than waste time with this tit-for-tat nonsense.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#93 Mark Taunton

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:18 PM

Christ (who is God) will put down everything that opposes the Father.


Sorry I'm picking up a point that is now a few days old. But there is an issue that remains to be explained.

You claimed that the same Greek phrase translated (in the KJV) as "all power" in Mat 28:18 and "all authority" in 1 Cor 15:24 refers in both cases to God's omnipotence. Yet in 1 Cor 15:24, which the above comment of yours refers to, the "all authority" is itself one of the things that Christ is to put down. As Christ will put down everything that opposes the father (on that we are agreed), and if you are right about "all authority" meaning divine omnipotence, then you are saying that God's omnipotence opposes the father, i.e. that God opposes himself. Really?

Moreover, you have Christ (who is God, you claim) putting down (destroying or removing or nullifying) "all power", that is, according to you, God's own omnipotence. When he has done that, who will be omnipotent if Christ (God) has destroyed his own omnipotence?

Thanks for ignoring Matthew 28:18 (the topic of THIS THREAD).


I'm not ignoring it at all. In direct relation to Mat 28:18, and the particular phrase you're making a claim about there, the same phrase occurs in 1 Cor 15:24. In view of my points above, I'm looking for you to explain exactly how it has the same meaning in both cases, as you asserted - unless you've now changed your mind about that?

Edited by Mark Taunton, 19 August 2012 - 04:44 PM.


#94 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:56 AM

It refers to the fact that His mediatorial role will one day cease.

NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
Don't confuse functional subordination with ontological inferiority.

An all-powerful Being is an omnipotent Being which is the Almighty.

#95 Jesse2W

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:25 AM

It refers to the fact that His mediatorial role will one day cease.

NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
Don't confuse functional subordination with ontological inferiority.

An all-powerful Being is an omnipotent Being which is the Almighty.


You're wrong about that because Jesus was begotten and human, but it's irrelevant to this argument. Jusus is subordinate in auhtority and thus is not the "MOST HIGH."

Edited by Jesse2W, 20 August 2012 - 03:26 AM.


#96 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:00 AM

The Lord Jesus is subordinate in authority?
Matthew 28:18 reads He has "all" of it.

Thanks anyway for your opinion.

#97 Jesse2W

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:30 AM

The Lord Jesus is subordinate in authority?
Matthew 28:18 reads He has "all" of it.

Thanks anyway for your opinion.


But there is an exception to his authority as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:27. The same logic applies to Mathew 28:18. It is OBVIOUS (note Paul says OBVIOUS, meaning it goes WITHOUT SAYING) that the Father is excluded from "ALL things." I charge you with ignoring the obvious truth that Jesus does not have authority over the one who GAVE him all authority. As I have ALREADY shown God has authority over His Anointed.

Edited by Jesse2W, 20 August 2012 - 04:30 AM.


#98 Mark Taunton

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:30 AM

It refers to the fact that His mediatorial role will one day cease.

NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
Don't confuse functional subordination with ontological inferiority.

An all-powerful Being is an omnipotent Being which is the Almighty.


The source you cite is talking about 1 Cor 15:28. This does nothing to answer the problem you have in 1 Cor 15:24. Anyway, where does that context mention mediation? It's about rule, authority and power. Amongst other things it says that Christ will put down/destroy "all authority", just as death will be put down/destroyed (same verb) in v26. If "all authority" means God's omnipotence as you claim, then Christ will destroy God's omnipotence and so God will no longer be omnipotent.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 20 August 2012 - 06:38 AM.

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#99 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:02 AM

It's the same context.
What you have to prove is that functional superiority always necessitates ontological superiority...and that you can not do.
You can start a new thread concerning this or any other passage. This thread concerns itself with Matthew 28:18.


Matthew 28:18 teaches that Christ has all-power. No sources (your opinions do not count) have yet been supplied that somehow limits the use of "all" here...and an all-powerful/omnipotent Being is the same thing as saying the "Almighty".

Danker: the right to control or command, authority, absolute power, warrant
Of Jesus' total authority Mt 28:18 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, exousia, page 353).

Do you know what "total" means?

Edited by foudroyant, 20 August 2012 - 07:27 AM.


#100 Jesse2W

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:30 AM

I'm not even talking about ontology (though we disagree, it's irrelevant). I'm talking about authority. If God asks Jesus to do something, then Jesus must do it or it is sin. If Jesus asks God to do something, then God is not obligated to do it. That's what authority means. Now that I have explained it, where does the Bible say Christ is an EXCEPTION to the Father's authority? You seem to think that Jesus needs to have the CAPACITY (ontology) to exercise his authority. That is adding to the Bible. Jesus can have the RIGHT to do something, but lack the capacity within himself to do it. You can change your mind without fear of embarrassment now that I showed a huge flaw in that argument.

#101 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:45 AM

Your post is confusing. Let's deal with Matthew 28:18 and the use of "all power". This is the passage for this thread. Please supply any sources (not your opinion) that all does not really mean all here.

#102 Jesse2W

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

Your post is confusing. Let's deal with Matthew 28:18 and the use of "all power". This is the passage for this thread. Please supply any sources (not your opinion) that all does not really mean all here.

Then I will make it simple for you. All has an obvious exception based on the CONTEXT that God has GIVEN Jesus authority. It's the same type of logic Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15:27

Where does the Bible say anywhere that Christ is an EXCEPTION to the Father's authority?

You seem to think that Jesus needs to have the CAPACITY (ontology) to exercise his authority. That is adding to the Bible. Jesus can have the RIGHT to do something, but lack the capacity within himself to do it. He may have the right to create a planet, but not the ability and is thus not all-powerful.

Remember authority does not mean POWER in the sense of supernatural powers like God has.

You keep saying that Jesus is all-powerful, but the word is more correctly "authority," not "power."

If God gave YOU all authority, then does that mean He gave you all the power to exercise that authority? No. I imagine Jesus has great supernatural powers like God's angels have, but that is not all-powerful like God.

You have been equivocating authority and ontological power this whole argument so please stop and think about what I've shown.

Edited by Jesse2W, 20 August 2012 - 07:58 AM.


#103 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:08 AM

Let's deal with Matthew 28:18 and the use of "all power". This is the passage for this thread. Please supply any sources (not your opinion) that all does not really mean all here.

#104 Mark Taunton

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:28 PM

It's the same context.
What you have to prove is that functional superiority always necessitates ontological superiority...and that you can not do.


I don't have to prove any such thing - it's not relevant to the issue in 1 Cor 15:24.

You can start a new thread concerning this or any other passage. This thread concerns itself with Matthew 28:18.


You have been creating and posting in quite enough different threads as it is; there's no need for more on the issue of "all power" or "all authority". Indeed, Matt 28:18 and 1 Cor 15:24 are the only two verses containing this exact Greek phrase. And since it is central to your claim about the Matthew passage, and you say it has the same meaning in Corinthians, then the latter verse is equally relevant to this discussion thread.

Matthew 28:18 teaches that Christ has all-power. No sources (your opinions do not count) have yet been supplied that somehow limits the use of "all" here...and an all-powerful/omnipotent Being is the same thing as saying the "Almighty".

Danker: the right to control or command, authority, absolute power, warrant
Of Jesus' total authority Mt 28:18 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, exousia, page 353).

Do you know what "total" means?


No, in point of fact, Mat 28:18 does not teach that Jesus has all power, i.e. authority. To do that, he would have said "I have all authority", and the record of his words would use the verb 'echo' - "I have". But he didn't say that. The verb is in fact a form of 'didomi' - to give, So, exactly as has been repeatedly pointed out, this passage teaches that all power has been given to Jesus. This teaching directly and totally precludes the possibility that Jesus is God, for who could give God authority that he does not already have?

You consistently fail to address this most basic point, just as you fail to answer the problem you created for yourself by claiming that "all authority" in 1 Cor 15:24 means God's omnipotence. Your interpretation in that latter verse directly leads to absurd consequences, but still you won't acknowledge that your interpretation must therefore be wrong.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 20 August 2012 - 07:39 PM.





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