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Matthew 28:18 - Christ is omnipotent (God)


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#61 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:53 PM

Omnipotent: (1) almighty (4) the Omnipotent, God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).

So the Almighty created another Almighty?

#62 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

No, he caused a man to be miraculously born of a virgin. He then gave that man power and authority and understanding which he wouldn't have had otherwise.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#63 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

He is right now omnipotent/Almighty.

#64 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:58 PM

Because God gave him power and authority and immortality which he did not have before and could not have obtained except by God giving it to him. And he is still subordinate to God and always will be.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#65 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:59 PM

So since you assert that God gave Jesus the power (it was foreign to the Lord Jesus) then God created another all-powerful/omnipotent/Almighty Being.
But somehow the Almighty is not the Almighty like the other Almighty?
I didn't know the Almighty came in different categories.

Edited by foudroyant, 13 August 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#66 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:02 PM

Jesus was not created with the power and authority and knowledge he has now. He received them in part at his baptism for use during his earthly ministry, and then in full at his resurrection and ascension to heaven. He remains subordinate to God, yet superior to the angels, who are in turn superior to men and women.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#67 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

So the Almighty created another Almighty?

#68 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:06 PM

No. He was not created Almighty. He was raised to a position subordinate to God at his resurrection and ascension. He was, is, and always will be in a position subordinate to God. He did not exist before his conception in Mary's womb.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#69 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:33 AM

But since you agree that He now has all-power that is the same thing as being Almighty.

#70 Matt Smith

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:08 AM

But since you agree that He now has all-power that is the same thing as being Almighty.


Nope. It is the same thing as delegated responsibility.
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#71 Evangelion

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:53 AM

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18, KJV).

Christ has "all power". To have all power means that one is omnipotent/Almighty and only God is omnipotent/Almighty.


The word here means 'authority', not 'power.' The Greek word for 'almighty' is pantokrator, and it is only ever applied to the Father. It is never applied to the Son.
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#72 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:53 AM

But since you agree that He now has all-power that is the same thing as being Almighty.

Why? The first officer on a ship can exercise all power and authority if the captain gives him permission, but it does not make him captain. The captain remains superior and can take away that power and authority if he wishes.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#73 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

We are not dealing with captains of ships but with who God is.
With this authority comes power. You make a false dichotomy. Plus the fact there is more than one way to express a truth claim. An all powerful Being is the Almighty.
Sad that all of you make up your own definitions for words.

#74 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:13 PM

It's an analogy. Someone with supreme power can delegate it to a subordinate if they wish, but the subordinate remains subordinate, as the power and authority still belongs to the superior entity. All of your arguments are basically "Jesus can do/has/is called X, and so is God, therefore Jesus is God".
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#75 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:09 PM

Says you. The dictionary defines omnipotence as having all-power. Does Christ have all-power? Yes. Thus Christ is omnipotent/Almighty.

#76 Richie

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:25 PM

Which dictionary?
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#77 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:46 PM

Says you. The dictionary defines omnipotence as having all-power. Does Christ have all-power? Yes. Thus Christ is omnipotent/Almighty.

But Christ was given this power. It isn't his power, it's God's, which God has given him, because God is greater. God could take it away from Jesus if he chose to.

God on the other hand wasn't given this power, because it is innately is, which no-one gave him, because no-one is greater. God cannot have his power taken away from him.

That's the difference between the two. It's a simple matter of the delegation of power. It's the same situation with a ship's captain and first officer. Or a company owner and a manager who reports to him.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#78 Jesse2W

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:30 PM

The Father has power over His Anointed One.

Since Jesus is both subordinate to the Father and does not have authority over the Father like the Father has over Jesus, then Jesus is not the Almighty.

While it is true that Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth, it is clear as Paul says, that the Father is not subject to the Son. The Father is excluded from Jesus' authority. I can't say the same for Jesus because there is no scripture that does. Jesus is therefore still under the Father's authority. God gave it and has the authority to take it away.

With regaurds to the false dichotomy. It is not a false dichotomy because you assume we are talking about who God is in Mathew 28:18. When we are talking about Jesus. You can't say authority means "power" here because it's talking about Jesus who is God and then say therefore Jesus is God because authority means power here.

Let's summarize:
1. Jesus doesn't have authority over the Father, but the Father is greater than all - with no exceptions found anywhere in the Bible.
2. Jesus doesn't have all "power" in the sense of his words turning into reality "let there be light." He has all authority which means he rules with God's power - not his own for he says "I can do nothing by myself."

Edited by Jesse2W, 17 August 2012 - 07:32 PM.

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#79 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 shows that even in the Kingdom age Jesus will still be subordinate to God.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#80 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:42 PM

Since you insist that Her was given this power in that he never had it before then you have the Father creating another Almighty God.

Edited by foudroyant, 17 August 2012 - 11:42 PM.


#81 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:50 PM

No I don't, and I've explained why several times. You're just repeating yourself and ignoring what we say in reply, a sure sign you've run out of answers. That's OK - your position is so weak it was inevitable.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#82 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:35 AM

In post #53 I wrote:

Based on Matthew 28:18 right now Christ has all-power in the universe.
Agree?

In post #58 you wrote "Yes".

I keep repeating the same thing because you keep denying what words mean.

An all-powerful Being is the same thing as an omnipotent Being which is the same thing as saying "Almighty".

Yeah I know I know you say but he was given this power. Then that means the Almighty created another Almighty. If not, then why not?

#83 Jesse2W

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

If he said that, then I think he was wrong to say Jesus has all the power in the universe. Jesus has all authority save for authority over his Father, thus he is not almighty like his Father who is over all (John 10:29, Ephesians 4:6) with no exceptions found anywhere in the Bible.

#84 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:27 AM

Having all authority connotes having all power.

a. NIDNTT: The exaltation of the Son confirms that all authority (-> Might) has been given to him (Matt. 28:18) (1:95, All, F. Graber ).

b. NIDNTT: All power in heaven and on earth has been given to the Risen One (Matt. 28:18) (2:194, Heaven, H. Bietenhard).
c. TDNT: The inclusion of heaven and earth in the saving event in Jesus Christ means that no entity in heaven or on earth can possess autonomy: Mt. 28:18. By the resurrection all power has been placed exclusively in the hands of the risen Lord (5:518, ouranos, Traub).
d. Thayer: the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed, [generally translated authority]); a. univ.: Mt. 28:18 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, exousia, page 225).
e. Vine: the power of one whose will and commands must be obeyed by others, e.g., Matt. 28:18 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Authority, page 81).


The Lord Jesus does not have power over the Father but in equality with Him - thus proving that He is God.



#85 Jesse2W

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:45 AM

The Lord Jesus does not have power over the Father but in equality with Him - thus proving that He is God.


Your saying it does not make it so. You are wrong. The Father is greater than Jesus as Jesus himself said twice.

There is no place that says Jesus is equal with God. Ephesians says God is over all. Do you think the God in Ephesians 4:6 is all three persons or just the Father?

#86 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:00 AM

Wrong? The Lord Jesus has all-power. An all-powerful being is Almighty...that means God.
Theos in Ephesians 4:6 refers to the Father. Some passages say that the Father is supreme while others say that Christ is.

#87 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

Christ:
- given power
- power not his own
- received it from one greater
- there was a time when he did not have it
- could have it taken away from him again

God
- not given power
- power is his own
- there is no one greater
- always had it
- cannot have it taken away from him

God didn't create an equal. He appointed and delegated his power to a subordinate. If you believe God created Jesus as another God then that's a heresy according to the Nicene creed, by the way.

Your posts demonstrate that belief in Trinitarianism is based entirely on an emotional attachment to a set of assertions, and is incapable of standing up to proper logical analysis of the text.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#88 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:57 AM

You are still ignoring what omnipotent (all-powerful) means.....Almighty.

In terms of your opinion about what given means I already addressed that in post #3 but you since you have no refutation to that you think just repeating the same thing over and over will somehow refute that. Won't work.

Edited by foudroyant, 18 August 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#89 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:21 AM

Your constant references to citations from scholars and unwillingness (or is it inability?) to support your beliefs in your own words makes discussion pointless. Can you please just address what we write? If it's wrong, show us why. If you can't show why it's wrong, maybe you need to consider that your own beliefs might be wrong.

The point you're constantly missing is that athough Jesus has all power/authority, it isn't his own. It's someone else's. It's God's. That's the difference. Jesus doesn't have power or authority of his own. He is exercising God's power and authority with God's permission. Jesus is the means by which God exercises his power and authority.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#90 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

Your constant appeal to your opinions reveals a sever lack of depth of theological perspective.




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