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Matthew 28:18 - Christ is omnipotent (God)


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#1 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:17 AM

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18, KJV).

Christ has "all power". To have all power means that one is omnipotent/Almighty and only God is omnipotent/Almighty.

#2 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:48 AM

In this statement, Jesus did not say that he possessed all power in heaven and in earth inherently, and had always done so (which would have to be true if he were in fact God in the absolute sense you claim), but explicitly to the contrary, in the very words you quote he says it was given to him. So prior to this event of giving (which occurred after his resurrection, at the declaration of his righteousness and the authority therefore granted to him as the son of God - see Rom 1:3-4, Psa 2:7; Act 13:33, Heb 1:5, Heb 5:5), he could not possibly have been God. Logically it follows that he neither ever was, nor yet now is, God in that absolute sense.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 08:51 AM.


#3 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:35 AM

Refusal to use one's power does not necessitate inability to do so.

TDNT: Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8 -> kenow 3, 661, 13-28, cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact.
A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world, Mt. 28:18: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Cf. the proclamations of the heavenly King in Rev., e.g., concerning Alpha and Omega (5:895, pas - Reicke).

Before His ascension Christ employed all His power, during His incarnation He refused to always employ it and after His resurrection He once again fully employed it.
Matthew 28:18 reads that He has "all power" while you assert ...not really. I'll stick with what Matthew teaches.

#4 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:41 AM

You have not addressed my point. Jesus says explicitly that all power was (at a particular time) given to him. So previously he did not have it, and hence was not (and is not) the one absolute God.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 11:42 AM.


#5 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:45 AM

That's your assumption that He didn't have it. He simply refused to always employ His ability. Can't an omnipotent Being refuse to always employ His omnipotence?

#6 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

No it's not merely my assumption: it follows directly from the clear meaning of the verb 'didomi', ("to give") that Jesus uses. It makes no sense for him to say specifically that he had been given all power, when according to you he already had it.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#7 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:46 PM

I already cited a source for my assertion. More can be added to that while you simply give your opinion.
My Bible reads that He has "all-power". An all-powerful Being is by definition "God".

#8 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:06 PM

Your source didn't even mention the word "given" in Matt 28:18, far less does it address the primary issue that word raises directly. So it has no value at all in respect of your assertions. Again I say, what matter is the fact of the text, not the opinions of uninspired human beings about it.

#9 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

While at the same time you give your uninspired opinion.

By the way the word "given" was mentioned in what I cited...read it again.

Edited by foudroyant, 11 August 2012 - 01:15 PM.


#10 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:18 PM

While at the same time you give your uninspired opinion.


Yes, indeed I give my uninspired opinion, as do you. I may be wrong in my understanding, just as I believe you are in yours in this instance. But I seek to build my understanding on the inspired words of scripture, not on anyone else's likewise uninspired opinion, no matter how valued by other men it may be. And because I seek for truth, and I believe the truth of God's word is vital to salvation of all men, I desire that others may likewise gain the hope of eternal life by respecting and heeding God's word, as I strive to do. But in the end, what matters is not me, or my opinion of itself, but whether my opinion is truly consistent with and founded in the word of God. To the extent that it is, to the extent that I reflect, even in my uninspired writing, what God's spirit presents to all men in his inspired scripture, then there can be some measure of value in my words.

By the way the word "given" was mentioned in what I cited...read it again.


OK, yes, I now see that it was present; strictly speaking you are correct. However, the word occured only in the quotation of Matt 28:18; it was not used or referred to at all in the explanation around that quotation. Nor have you, as yet in this thread, made any attempt to engage with its significance in what Jesus says here. This complete failure to address that central crucial fact of the text highlights the problem you have: Jesus' actual words don't support your understanding of him, instead they directly oppose it, because what you say about him contradicts what he says about himself.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#11 vic

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:12 PM

Hello
foudroyant


All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

Heaven and earth are not the universe. God the Father's throne is not limited to the earth!
It is not on earth.

Attached File  A Hundred Reasons. 12.8.12.rtf   23.17KB   2 downloads

Christ will return and rule on the "earth", this earth. Rev 5:10. All the faithful believers will rule with Christ on this earth after the marriage of Rev 19:9.

Vic

#12 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

Heaven and earth is the universe.

a. NIDNTT: As in the OT, the expression "heaven and earth" means the universe (Matt. 5:18, 34f.; 11:25; 24:35; Lk. 12:56, etc) (2:192, Heaven, H. Bietenhard).
b Louw/Nida: (a more or less fixed phrase equivalent to a single lexical item) the totality of God's creation - 'heaven and earth, universe' (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 1.3, ouranos, page 1).
c. Mounce: As in the OT, at times ge is combined with "heaven" to refer to all of creation (Mt. 5:18; Rev. 5:3) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Earth, page 204).
----------
all-power=omnipotence = Almighty
Mark, if we go by your position then you have the Almighty creating another Almighty.

#13 Kay

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:46 AM

foudroyant, welcome to Bible Discussion Forum :)

It would be appreciated if you didn't open further threads until the one's you have opened, several (and in relation to the trinity), have been fully discussed.

You would, if you search most topics, find that such issues have already been raised, even if sometime ago, a new post will bring it to the "top" again.

Many thanks :)

"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#14 foudroyant

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:47 AM

Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

#15 Kay

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:52 AM

Thank you for your reply - even one thread, general, to discuss issues about the trinity would have sufficed but as you have already commenced the other threads they will be left for continued discussion.

Again, welcome to the board :)
"seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" Matthew 6:33

#16 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:40 AM

So the anti-Trinitarian position is that the Lord Jesus received "all-power".
But somehow all-power does not mean omnipotence/Almighty.

Strange how they resort to such contradictions.

#17 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

There is no contradiction at all. "All power" does not mean universal omnipotence such as the one true God alone possesses.

Firstly, the word translated (in some versions) as "power" is 'exousia', which carries the sense of authority or right, more than of (physical) power. It is used of the authority one man may have over others, as well as of God's authority.

Secondly, the same Greek phrase for "all power" occurs in 1 Cor 15:24-28, translated "all authority":

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power,
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


From this it is explicit that "all authority" is not a reference to God's absolute omnipotence: it is a reference to the authority operating amongst men, where one rules over others, and the context is not God's rule but rule by Christ's enemies, which Christ through his future reign will subdue and abolish entirely. He will put down, or bring to nothing, the "all power"/"all authority" that the rulers of the world exercise, and at the end of his reign he will deliver up the perfected kingdom to God.

This will happen because Christ himself is subject to God, being subordinate to him. As the apostle Paul goes on to explain:

1 Cor 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


When did God put all things under christ? This occured when he was declared to be the son of God at his resurrection (Psa 2:7,Rom 1:1-4). In view of that authority, he has been raised up to heaven, to sit at God's right hand (Psa 110:1, Luke 22:69, Heb 1:3, Eph 1:19-23), from where he now exercises it. There is nothing in heaven and earth that is not now subject to his authority. That is explicitly because God, his father, has put all things under him; angels, authorities ('exousia') and powers have been made subject to him (1 Pet 3:21-22, Heb 2:5-9). God has delegated rulership over all those powers and authorities to the one he declared to be his son, that is Jesus, who following his resurrection was made lord ('kurios') and christ (Acts 2:32-36).

Scripturally them, this is all perfectly clear and consistent: Jesus, God's anointed, now has all authority, not because he always has had, being himself God (according to the Trinitarian notion), but because God, his father, has given it to him, and has put everything under him, as reward for his righteousness and complete submission to God's will, even to his dying on the cross. He did not previously possess it, and it was not previously under him. But now, God has made him lord and christ, and has put all things under his feet.

This is what Jesus meant when he said that all power in heaven and earth has been given to him (Mt 28:18).

Edited by Mark Taunton, 13 August 2012 - 08:09 AM.


#18 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:35 AM

All power in heaven and earth refers to all power everywhere. I already addressed that but you refuse to see it/ believe it.
Nice to see that anti-Trinitarians read all-power but then say...well not really.

#19 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

A. You have not explained how the same phrase, "all authority", in 1 Cor 15:24 means God's omnipotence, as according to you it must. You can't, because it doesn't.

B. You have still not addressed the crucial detail in what Jesus said: "all power is given to me" in Matt 28:18. Those latter four words won't go away simply by your ignoring them.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 13 August 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#20 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:58 AM

1. It does mean God's omnipotence in 1 Corinthians 15:24.
2. I already addressed your point concerning "given" in Matthew 28:18 in post #3.

Christ has all-power but having all power doesn't really mean omnipotent/being Almighty? Sad that simple words are redefined. This is why lexicons are needed because even the most simple words get all changed around.

#21 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:18 PM

So Jesus is going to put down / destroy / nullify God's omnipotence?! If your claim about about the meaning of phrase in 1 Cor 15:24 is true, that's what you imply. I suggest you read that verse in context more carefully before making such a bizzare claim.

#22 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:23 PM

Bizarre describes your misunderstanding.
Christ (who is God) will put down everything that opposes the Father.

Thanks for ignoring Matthew 28:18 (the topic of THIS THREAD).

#23 Matt Smith

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:02 PM

Bizarre describes your misunderstanding.
Christ (who is God) will put down everything that opposes the Father.

Thanks for ignoring Matthew 28:18 (the topic of THIS THREAD).


Define "given".
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#24 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

See post #3.

#25 Matt Smith

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:11 PM

See post #3.


Define the same word in this context:

I was given the gospel to the Gentiles.
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#26 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

God allowed you to have the responsibility to present the gospel to the Gentiles.

#27 Matt Smith

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:17 PM

So when you "give a gift" to your children, you allow them to have something they already have?
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#28 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:22 PM

Possibly.
If they chose to put their full access to their gift aside and say that for a certain time period they won't make full use of it but at a certain point they will and then that day comes I give them full use of it then yes they already had it but willingly chose not to make full use of it.

#29 Matt Smith

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

Oh, yes the pre-existence trick... I'm god, and I will pretend to be human so I will not use my god powers, and after I pretend to die, I will take my god powers and pretend I allowed myself to have them again...
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#30 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:36 PM

But how did you perform all those miracles without your god powers? How could you be sufficiently omniscient to read people's hearts, but not sufficiently omniscient to know the day of your return?

Would you have still been able to take your god powers back again if you had sinned while pretending to be human? Were you even capable of sinning while human? Not much of an achievement if you weren't.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)




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