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The absurdity of praying to the Lord Jesus but denying He is God


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#31 Richie

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

He was given that power. It was not part of his nature, he had to be given it.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#32 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:50 PM

So God gave the Lord Jesus omniscience.
Omniscient: the Omniscient God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).

So you now have two Gods.

#33 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:10 PM

No. Jesus is in a subordinate position to God. He exercises power, authority and judgement on God's behalf.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#34 Richie

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:13 PM

So God gave the Lord Jesus omniscience.
Omniscient: the Omniscient God (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, page 1005, NY: Gramercy Books, c. 1996).

So you now have two Gods.


Look you're the one preaching polytheism!
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#35 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:36 AM

No, you are. You are agreeing that the Lord Jesus is omniscient and to be omniscient means to be God.

#36 Matt Smith

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:10 AM

No, you are. You are agreeing that the Lord Jesus is omniscient and to be omniscient means to be God.


No one has agreed that Jesus is (or was) omniscient. We agree that Jesus knew what was in men's hearts. It's a huge step from that to omniscient.
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#37 Evangelion

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:57 AM

I don't see how awareness of people's prayers makes Jesus omniscient. Jesus himself denied omniscience, telling the disciples he does not know the time of his second advent.

In Acts 1:24 the Lord is referred to as kardiognwstes (lit. heart-knower) in this prayer. This means that He is omniscient.


Firstly, there's no indication that this prayer is directed to Jesus. It could be directed to the Father.

Secondly, kardiognwstes does not mean 'omniscient.' Angels and prophets have demonstrated the ability to know people's hearts, but this doesn't equate to omniscience.

Edited by Evangelion, 17 August 2012 - 05:57 AM.

In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
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#38 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:56 AM

No, you are. You are agreeing that the Lord Jesus is omniscient and to be omniscient means to be God.

Why? Even if he is omniscient now, he wasn't during his earthly ministry, because he had to learn things and there were things he didn't know.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#39 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

Matt,
To know all the hearts means to be omniscient. And nsr that is the same thing as meaning "God".
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Evangelion,
Revelation 2:23 is also cited in the definition for kardiognwstes - which means to be omniscient.
No one else knows the TOTALITY of ALL human hearts. That is the difference. So your appeal to certain prophets and angels does not apply.

#40 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

To know all the hearts means to be omniscient.

No it doesn't. You can know all the hearts and not know other things.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#41 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:10 PM

Thanks for redefining (of course without any sources at all) the meaning of kardiognwstes.

#42 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:41 PM

How have I redefined the meaning? What have I redefined it to?

You have said that it means "able to read minds and hearts". Where have I said it means anything else? You have also said that this is equivalent to being omniscient. That's what I have disputed.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#43 foudroyant

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:36 PM

1. NIDNTT: kardiognwstes is unknown to secular Gk. and to the LXX, and occurs in the NT only in Acts 1:24 and 15:8 and later in patristic writings. It describes God as the knower of hearts. The fact that God sees, tests and searches the hidden depths of the human heart is commonly stated in both the OT and the NT (1 Sam. 16:7; Jer. 11:20; 17:9f.; Lk. 16:15; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 2:23, cf. above OT, 3). This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognwstes (2:183, Heart - T. Sorg).
2. TDNT: The designation of God as ho kardiognwstes, "the One who knows the heart," expresses in a single term (Ac. 1:24; 15:8) something which is familiar to both the NT and OT piety (Lk. 16:15; R. 8:27; 1 Th. 2:4; Rev. 2:23 of Christ, cf. 1 Bas. 16:7; 3 Bas. 8:39; 1 Par. 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Ier. 11:20; 17:10; Sir. 42:18 ff.), namely that the omniscient God knows the innermost being of every man where the decision is made either for Him or against Him (3:613, kardiognwstes - Behm).

Danker agrees with the TDNT.

That is kardiognwstes as properly defined.

#44 nsr

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:44 PM

So it means knowing the heart. Which is not the same thing as omniscience.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#45 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:25 AM

Since you couldn't "see" it I made it easier for you:

NIDNTT: This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognwstes (2:183, Heart - T. Sorg).

I'm sure if you go back and read the citation from the TDNT you will see it as well.

Let me know if you need more help.

#46 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:07 AM

But that's just someone's opinion, right? The word doesn't actually mean "omniscient".
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#47 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

I cited dictionaries and Danker agrees with the TDNT. Let me know when you or any other Unitarian reach his Greek expertise.

#48 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:15 AM

But the Greek word means "the one who knows the heart". It doesn't mean "omniscient".
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#49 foudroyant

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:35 PM

Says you.

#50 nsr

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:23 PM

:rolleyes:

Prove otherwise.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#51 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:59 AM

Did so in post #45.

#52 Matt Smith

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:55 AM

Did so in post #45.


not really
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#53 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:57 AM

Yes, really.

NIDNTT: This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognwstes (2:183, Heart - T. Sorg).

#54 nsr

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:49 AM

In your own words, please. That's just someone's opinion, and even he isn't saying the word actually *means* omniscient.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#55 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:09 AM

Nope, it's from a dictionary.

Define "actually". You used it so please define it.

Edited by foudroyant, 20 August 2012 - 10:11 AM.


#56 nsr

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

:rolleyes:

You're being silly now. The dictionary does not say the word means "omniscient", and the source you are quoting does not say it means that either. The dictionary says the word means "the one who knows the hearts".
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#57 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

You locked the other thread when there is nowhere else that discusses the use of proseuchomai.
http://www.thechrist...showtopic=16744
But leave it to those who deny the fact that the Lord Jesus is God to act in such a way because the truth refutes them.
------------------
You use a word and can't even define it. Pathetic.

Edited by foudroyant, 20 August 2012 - 01:09 PM.


#58 nsr

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:15 PM

Put it in this thread, then, instead of making a fuss. I'm getting a little tired of your petulant behaviour. Every single one of your arguments is nothing more than "Jesus does/has/receives/is called X, and so is God, therefore Jesus is God". You don't even realise that the issue isn't whether or not Jesus is omniscient now, the issue is whether or not that makes him God.

How do you know the "Lord" being prayed to in Acts 1:24 is Jesus? Let me guess: Jesus is "the one who knows the hearts" in Rev 2, so it must be him here as well? :rolleyes:
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"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#59 Matt Smith

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

kardiognostes

Thayer: knower of the hearts

Strongs: heart knower

NASEC: knower of hearts

Theological WordStudy: One who knows the heart, searcher of hearts

Vines: heart-knower


The Jews of Moses' era must have be omniscient also... They "know the heart of a stranger"...
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#60 foudroyant

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

No, I'm not going to put it in this thread. I had it in the other thread (where it belongs) but you come bumbling along and lock it.
How do I know that the "Lord" being prayed to in Acts 1:24 is Jesus? duhhhhhhh I supplied the evidence within the prayer that shows it refers to Him..but since that thread is locked it can't be further discussed where it belongs thanks to you.
Typical behavior by anti-Trinitarians...always out to squelch the truth.

just saw your post before I was about to send this in Matt.. you are not looking at ALL the evidence for how kardiognwstes is defined. When you or any other Unitarian reach Danker's expertise then what you say would carry some weight but until then you are just spouting off your worthless opinions.
In terms of your other so-called refutation how many times will you people need to be told that no one besides the Triune God can know ALL the hearts of ALL people. Get it? It is not the same at all as to what certain prophets knew.

Remove my account. I am out of here. I deal with people who at least know how to define words and have put fairy tale word games behind once they have left the 3rd grade.

goodbye




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