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The absurdity of praying to the Lord Jesus but denying He is God


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#1 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:56 AM

Those who deny Christ is God but believe that it is acceptable to pray to Him are holding to an absurd position. For to hear all the prayers directed to Him would require Him to be omniscient and only God is omniscient. In Acts 1:24 the Lord is referred to as kardiognwstes (lit. heart-knower) in this prayer. This means that He is omniscient.

a. NIDNTT: This belief in the omniscience of God is expressed succinctly by the adj. kardiognwstes (2:183, Heart, T. Sorg).
b. TDNT: The designation of God as ho kardiognwstes, "the One who knows the heart," expresses in a single term (Ac. 1:24; 15:8) something which is familiar to both the NT and OT piety (Lk. 16:15; R. 8:27; 1 Th. 2:4; Rev. 2:23 of Christ, cf. 1 Bas. 16:7; 3 Bas. 8:39; 1 Par. 28:9; Psalm 7:9; Ier. 11:20; 17:10; Sir. 42:18 ff.), namely that the omniscient God knows the innermost being of every man where the decision is made either for Him or against Him (3:613, kardiognwstes, Behm).





#2 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:07 AM

I partly agree with your first statement, though not exactly for the reason you give, but in at least one respect what else you say is wrong. I do not pray to Jesus, and I believe those who do so, despite denying Christ is God, are indeed making a mistake.

However, your claim that this "would require (Christ) to be omniscient and only God is omniscient" is faulty. The number of living believers who might be praying at any one time is clearly finite - infinite knowledge is thus not required. Moreover, God has given to Jesus all power (authority) in heaven and in earth (Mt 28:18), with untold numbers of angels, who specifically minister to the future heirs of salvation (Heb 1:14), now being made subject to him (1 Pet 3:22).

So for Christ to know what all his servants are praying for, through the work of the angels, is by no means impossible. Indeed I believe he does know, in exactly this way. This ability he now has clearly exceeds by a long way the powers of mortal human beings today. But it certainly does not imply that he is God. As the angels are not God, but represent him faithfully in all they do, and have powers far beyond human ken, so Christ is even more powerful, having been made superior to them (Heb 1:4-7); nevertheless Christ is himself still subject to the will of God who is his father and his head (1 Cor 11:3). Even his mighty power and authority, which are to be revealed to the world in the day of judgement, are still held under the ultimate and infinite power and authority of God, his father, to whom at the last he will deliver up the kingdom in an act of overt submission (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 08:25 AM.


#3 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

All knowledge of all human hearts means one is omniscient (kardiognwstes).
That is how kardiognwstes is defined.

#4 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:22 AM

Please support your claim with scriptural evidence. Until you do, I am not obliged to accept this assertion.

(Also please note that I have edited my earlier post, subsequent to your most recent comment; I would appreciate your response to the points I have made.)

#5 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

I support my claim with how words of the Scripture are properly defined not what I think/hope they should mean. I cited two sources for it and Danker agrees as well.
In terms of what you added no one but God Himself can know the totality of all human hearts.
kardiognwstes=omniscience=God

Edited by foudroyant, 11 August 2012 - 08:28 AM.


#6 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:36 AM

You cite the opinions of scholars, concerning the supposed "proper" definitions of certain words, as if they were authoritative or constituted proof in themselves. But scripture alone is truly authoritative; those scholars are no less fallible or subject to their own theological biases than you or I. It is the inspired scripture itself, not simply human opinion about it, that we must use to establish truth.

So please show, from direct relevant scriptural statements, firstly that the word 'kardiognwstes' implies absolute omniscience as you claim, and secondly (and most crucially), that the specific referent of "Lord" in Acts 1:24 in is fact Jesus Christ, not God his father.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 08:37 AM.


#7 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

Yeah I know.....deny ever source cited but then at the same time just go by what you think. Thanks for your opinion.
I have already shown that kardiognwstes means omniscience. If you want to bury your head in the sand and refuse to see it that is your choice. The serious Bible student would do otherwise.

#8 Mark Taunton

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:36 AM

OK, suppose I accept that, despite your offering no specific scriptural proof. You still need to show that the apostles' use of "Lord" in Acts 1:24 refers specifically to Jesus and not to God his father. Without that, your claim about the significance of kardiognwstes is irrelevant.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 11 August 2012 - 11:37 AM.


#9 foudroyant

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:42 AM

Lord willing I will start another thread concerning Acts 1:24, 25 later.

The same concept is used of Him in Revelation 2:23.

#10 Richie

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:17 AM

It's pointless trying to prove something as massively important as Jesus being God from something as vague as this. Either he is God or he isn't and since the broad teaching of Scripture, not to mention common sense, is completely against that idea, then this line of argument holds no water.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#11 foudroyant

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:23 AM

This is vague? Only for those who refuse to see it.

#12 nsr

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:56 AM

If Jesus were God he couldn't be born, learn, be tempted, die or be resurrected. He would have to have been just pretending to do all those things. Which would make the entire NT a bit pointless.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#13 foudroyant

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:58 AM

Your welcome to start a thread on any of those issues but this thread has to do with praying to Christ.

#14 Mark Taunton

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

To whom did Jesus pray? If he is God, was he praying to himself?

#15 foudroyant

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:45 PM

The Lord Jesus was praying to the Father.
From your post #8 - My claim about kardiognwstes is relevant based on Revelation 2:23.

#16 Mark Taunton

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:35 PM

He was praying to his father, yes. But Jesus didn't just call his father "father". He also called him "God", e.g. "that they might know you, the only true God". Did God pray to God?

#17 Richie

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:01 PM

The Lord Jesus was praying to the Father.


Case settled then, since "there is one God, the father".
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#18 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:38 AM

1. The Lord Jesus called the Father "Father" in John 17:1. And He can call Him "God" as well. Just like the Father calls the Lord Jesus "God" in Hebrews 1:8.
2. God the Son because He was also a man prayed to God the Father.
------
1. The case is "settled" that the Lord Jesus is God because He receives prayer in Scripture thus necessitating His omniscience.

#19 Mark Taunton

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:35 AM

So according to you, God prayed to God. And since even trinitarians are obliged to say that there is only one God, that means God prayed to himself. You have just confirmed the absurdity of the doctrine of the trinity.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 13 August 2012 - 08:37 AM.


#20 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:43 AM

No, because if God is multi-Personal (and He is) and Christ became a man He would be expected to pray to the Father.
Back to the main subject...the fact that Christ properly receives prayer in Scripture necessitates that He is God. To be able to hear all the prayers and motives behind every single prayer necessitates His omniscience. For to know all the hearts means to be omniscient (God).

a. To know all the hearts means that one is omniscient (God).
b. The Lord Jesus knows all the hearts.
c. Therefore the Lord Jesus is omniscient (God).

#21 Matt Smith

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:00 PM

No, because if God is multi-Personal (and He is)...


You worship a god with multiple personalities?
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#22 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

I will address that when my syllogism above is addressed.

#23 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:19 PM

a. To know all the hearts means that one is omniscient (God) or that one has been given said knowledge/ability by God.
b. The Lord Jesus knows all the hearts.
c. Therefore the Lord Jesus is omniscient (God) or a man given knowledge and ability by God.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#24 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

Already in "a" you are wrong because kardiognwstes as properly defined refutes your opinion.
Since Christ knows all the hearts of all people demonstrates that He is omniscient. And since Christ is not the Father this proves that God is a multi-Personal Being.

Edited by foudroyant, 13 August 2012 - 01:26 PM.


#25 nsr

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:31 PM

Already in "a" you are wrong because kardiognwstes as properly defined refutes your opinion.

How? Please explain in your own words.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#26 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:32 PM

kardiognwstes is not an English word. It is a Greek word and thus dictionaries that define Greek words are to be used.

#27 Richie

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

So if it means "heart-knower" then how does this (a) mean inherit omniscience and (b) mean Jesus is God?

I am not following your logic and it does seem that you are trying to find the most obscure ideas to support a doctrine that even Trinitarians admit is not biblical.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#28 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:33 PM

To know all the hearts means One is omniscient. And if you are saying that God allows the Lord Jesus to be omniscient then you have God creating another God for to only God is omniscient.

In post #20 I put it in simple syllogism form.

Edited by foudroyant, 13 August 2012 - 02:40 PM.


#29 Richie

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:42 PM

Your syllogism is illogical:

a. To know all the hearts means that one is omniscient (God).
b. Those who were given the gift of discerning of spirits knew all the hearts.
c. Therefore those who were given the gift of discerning of spirits were omniscient (God).

You have inserted your own opinion that knowing all hearts means one is omniscient and makes one God.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#30 foudroyant

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

They didn't know the totality of all hearts of all people everywhere. Not the same at all.

Being the omniscient God the Lord Jesus does.

Edited by foudroyant, 13 August 2012 - 02:43 PM.





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