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Why is the Father alone God?


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#1 Jesse2W

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 12:44 AM

I was asked to put together a list of reasons for why the Father alone is God, but this is tricky because even angels are called Yahweh.
What are a few strong answers? I like that there is only one person of the alleged Godhead who is called the almighty.

Edited by Jesse2W, 24 October 2011 - 12:45 AM.


#2 Mark Taunton

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:35 AM

A simple test is to count the number of occurrences in scripture of various relevant terms:

"God the father" : 13
"God the son" : 0
"God the holy spirit" : 0

That tells us something, I suggest...

#3 nsr

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:50 AM

1 Cor 8:6
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#4 Jesse2W

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 08:02 AM

That was funny, Mark, thanks. It's true. haha
Hey I'm talking to this guy on youtube about this and he says 1 Tim 6:15-16 is about Jesus, but it says no one has ever seen him. My thoughts are that if it is about Jesus, then it's his post-resurrection state in which he blinded Paul. Is there a link to the arguments for and against or just a plain exegesis?

Edited by Jesse2W, 24 October 2011 - 08:03 AM.


#5 Matt Smith

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 01:16 PM

If 1 Tim 6 is about a post-resurrection Jesus, then the end of the gospels and the first bit of Acts are a lie...
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#6 Jeremy

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:47 PM

For me, one of the most persuasive answers to this is to look carefully at how the Lord Jesus Christ himself describes his Father, and his own relationship with Him. John's Gospel (perhaps ironically, for Trinitarians) might be a good place to start. It's worth bearing in mind too that Jesus has a God (not just a father): John 20 v 17; Rev. 3 v 12.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#7 LioneDea

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

Why is the Father alone God?


There is only one God - the Father. The Holy Spirit is God's power.

Jesus is the Son of God, and a human being, through his mother Mary.




Lione D' ea: The Father and the begotten Son are both God, how come God is alone which is the Father carrying His Son in eternal, God is alone are erroneous doctrine.

(end.)

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#8 Mark Taunton

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:47 PM

What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 24 May 2012 - 12:50 PM.


#9 LioneDea

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:54 PM

What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#10 Matt Smith

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:06 PM


What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters
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#11 Mark Taunton

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:10 PM

Where does the Bible say "the Son is part of the Godhead"?

#12 LioneDea

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:24 PM



What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters



Lione D' ea: I Corinthians 8:6 Let us read:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Lione D' ea: In the aspect which verse state is the God is one in being a Father, Jesus Christ which is the Son is came from Him also that is why He is part of His Godhead. The verse did not say the Son is not God it say "whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." To testify my statement the Son is came from Him and the Son is God and part of the Godhead in I John 1:18 Read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is part of the Godhead of the Father and He is God because He is begotten which came from the bosom of the Father, when the Father brought forth His Son what the Father do. In Psalms 2:7 Read:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Lione D' ea: The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man. For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


(end.)

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#13 LioneDea

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

Where does the Bible say "the Son is part of the Godhead"?



Lione D' ea: John 1:18 I'll read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is in the bosom of the Father, the bosom of the Father is part being of God.


(end.)

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#14 Mark Taunton

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:05 PM

1. You said Jesus was part of the Godhead. John 1:18 does not even mention "the Godhead", or the word "part". So this passage does not say what you claimed it says.

2. This passage says Jesus is IN the bosom of the father. That is different from saying he IS the bosom of the father (part of the father). At the supper before Jesus was crucified, one of his disciples lay in Jesus' bosom (John 13:23). But that does not make the disciple and Jesus actually the same person, Jesus: how can Jesus be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense. Likewise, John 1:18 does not make Jesus and the father the same person, God: how can God be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 24 May 2012 - 02:08 PM.

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#15 Mark Taunton

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:16 PM

The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man.


Why can God not beget a man? Jesus is repeatedly described as a man, and called himself the son of man. He was begotten in Mary by the holy spirit which came upon her. We are told that God sent forth his son, made out of a woman.

For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


There doesn't need to be a passage saying that the son is not God. The Bible consistently says Jesus is the son of God, so I believe Jesus is the son of God. The Bible never says Jesus actually is God. so I don't believe Jesus actually is God, as that would contradict the fact that Jesus is the son of God, because no-one can be his own son. I am the son of my father, and I also have a son of my own. I am somewhat like my father, and my son is somewhat like me. But I, my father, and my son are all distinct people.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 24 May 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#16 Jesse2W

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:32 AM

God the Father or God our Father -- 20+29+(2 times in one verse 10 times): 59 times
God the Son: 0times
God the Holy Spirit: 0times

So the Bible says "God the Father" over 20 times.

Isaiah 44:24 says God made the Earth by himself, so he was alone unless he had some heavenly hosts with him, but surely they aren't eternal.

#17 Matt Smith

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:37 AM




What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters



Lione D' ea: I Corinthians 8:6 Let us read:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Lione D' ea: In the aspect which verse state is the God is one in being a Father, Jesus Christ which is the Son is came from Him also that is why He is part of His Godhead. The verse did not say the Son is not God it say "whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." To testify my statement the Son is came from Him and the Son is God and part of the Godhead in I John 1:18 Read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is part of the Godhead of the Father and He is God because He is begotten which came from the bosom of the Father, when the Father brought forth His Son what the Father do. In Psalms 2:7 Read:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Lione D' ea: The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man. For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


(end.)


The phrase "But to us there is but one God, the Father" eliminates everyone else from the equation. Your logic is faulty.
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#18 nsr

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:40 AM

If Jesus was God, he couldn't have been born, tempted, taught, killed, or resurrected. The whole point of the whole Bible is that Jesus did experience all of those things, and in the process made our hope of salvation possible. If he was God then he was just pretending that all of those things happened, or at best they were only happening to the human body he was trundling around in for 33 years.

The really amazing thing about Jesus was that he had man's nature but God's character, and was able to bridge the gap between us (man's nature and man's character) and God (God's nature and God's character). If he was God then that didn't happen. If he was God then it's impossible to have man's nature but God's character. Interestingly though, it is possible to have God's nature but man's character, if you believe in the false idea of Satan as a fallen angel, but that's another story.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#19 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:16 PM





What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters



Lione D' ea: I Corinthians 8:6 Let us read:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Lione D' ea: In the aspect which verse state is the God is one in being a Father, Jesus Christ which is the Son is came from Him also that is why He is part of His Godhead. The verse did not say the Son is not God it say "whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." To testify my statement the Son is came from Him and the Son is God and part of the Godhead in I John 1:18 Read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is part of the Godhead of the Father and He is God because He is begotten which came from the bosom of the Father, when the Father brought forth His Son what the Father do. In Psalms 2:7 Read:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Lione D' ea: The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man. For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


(end.)


The phrase "But to us there is but one God, the Father" eliminates everyone else from the equation. Your logic is faulty.



Lione D' ea: Jeremiah 26:2 Read:

Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: It is prohibited to lessen the word or phrase in the Bible because God command that all His law must speak. Concern in 8:6 the passage did not tell there is only absolute one God because His Son is God, the verse telling us that all things are came from Father including the Son. Let us read:

But to us there is but one God the Father, of...?

Lione D' ea: You have to acknowledge the little comma between two phrase there and also you have to consider the phrase or the word OF Matthew 5:18 Read:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lione D' ea: Therefore we have to acknowledge the little jot and one title because it is include in the law that is why Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 4:6 Read:I Corinthians 4:6 Read:



And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


Lione D' ea: Therefore you don't have to above what is written ever passage to say there is only one God. So Your logic is very faulty.


end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#20 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:18 PM

1. You said Jesus was part of the Godhead. John 1:18 does not even mention "the Godhead", or the word "part". So this passage does not say what you claimed it says.

2. This passage says Jesus is IN the bosom of the father. That is different from saying he IS the bosom of the father (part of the father). At the supper before Jesus was crucified, one of his disciples lay in Jesus' bosom (John 13:23). But that does not make the disciple and Jesus actually the same person, Jesus: how can Jesus be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense. Likewise, John 1:18 does not make Jesus and the father the same person, God: how can God be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense.




Lione D' ea: How come the Son is not part of the Godhead that the passage says the Son came from the bosom of the Father. John 1:18 Let us read again in King James Version and New Living translation:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (King James Version)

No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God,g is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us. (New Living Translation)

Lione D' ea: Father is God the bosom mention of the passage is part of being of the Father which is the Son came from that bosom, when the Father beget His Son the Bible state it the only begotten Son because He came from Father's being wherefore the Son is part by the Father known as a Godhead, He was possessed by the Father when the Son is in the bosom in that moment Proverbs 8:22 Read:

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: The Lord possessed Him in the beginning in that moment, when the Father beget His Son, The Father said unto His Son

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: The Son is came from Him and He is God. So when the two God prepared the heavens and earth the Son was there with the Father. Proverbs 8:27 Read:

When he prepared the heavens, I was there:

Lione D' ea: When the two God not yet create the Heavens there was no angels in that time so the existing of the Son testify us He is God He was with the Father. Angels are son of God but they are not begotten sons and not as true God as the Son had it Hebrews 1:5 Read:

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Lione D' ea: Angels are not begotten Son of God. Therefore before the Heavens was create the Father which is God is not alone because there was with Him and He is God and that is His Son, so my answer there is...God is not alone God.



2. This passage says Jesus is IN the bosom of the father. That is different from saying he IS the bosom of the father (part of the father). At the supper before Jesus was crucified, one of his disciples lay in Jesus' bosom (John 13:23). But that does not make the disciple and Jesus actually the same person, Jesus: how can Jesus be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense. Likewise, John 1:18 does not make Jesus and the father the same person, God: how can God be in his own bosom? - it makes no sense.






Lione D' ea: First let us look in Bible Dictionary what is the Bosom which the passage telling us:

kolpos: the bosom
Original Word: κόλπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kolpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-pos)
Short Definition: bosom, bosom of a garment, a bay, gulf
Definition: (a) sing. and plur: bosom; (sinus) the overhanging fold of the garment used as a pocket, (b) a bay, gulf.

2859 kólpos – properly, the upper part of the chest where a garment naturally folded to form a "pocket" – called the "bosom," the position synonymous with intimacy (union).

Lione D' ea: The bosom which the passage of John 1:18 referring is the upper part of the chest therefore the Son is part by ht Father. Just like Adam and Eve, Eve is part being of Adam because God took her to Adam so Eve is part of Adam this is an example why the Son is part of the Godhead because Father is Godhead so from bosom God brought forth His Son and Father call His Son "God" that is my answer.

end.

Edited by LioneDea, 25 May 2012 - 12:24 PM.

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#21 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:30 PM

If Jesus was God, he couldn't have been born, tempted, taught, killed, or resurrected. The whole point of the whole Bible is that Jesus did experience all of those things, and in the process made our hope of salvation possible. If he was God then he was just pretending that all of those things happened, or at best they were only happening to the human body he was trundling around in for 33 years.

The really amazing thing about Jesus was that he had man's nature but God's character, and was able to bridge the gap between us (man's nature and man's character) and God (God's nature and God's character). If he was God then that didn't happen. If he was God then it's impossible to have man's nature but God's character. Interestingly though, it is possible to have God's nature but man's character, if you believe in the false idea of Satan as a fallen angel, but that's another story.



Lione D' ea: I refute your statement there brother because there is nature in man which Jesus Christ did not do that is why when He said that...I was amaze and He is God.

end.

Edited by LioneDea, 25 May 2012 - 12:32 PM.

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#22 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:44 PM


The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man.



Why can God not beget a man? Jesus is repeatedly described as a man, and called himself the son of man. He was begotten in Mary by the holy spirit which came upon her. We are told that God sent forth his son, made out of a woman.

For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


There doesn't need to be a passage saying that the son is not God. The Bible consistently says Jesus is the son of God, so I believe Jesus is the son of God. The Bible never says Jesus actually is God. so I don't believe Jesus actually is God, as that would contradict the fact that Jesus is the son of God, because no-one can be his own son. I am the son of my father, and I also have a son of my own. I am somewhat like my father, and my son is somewhat like me. But I, my father, and my son are all distinct people.



Lione D' ea: That is not logic you have and very blard, because God which He beget is the Spirit of Christ and that spirit is God. John 3:6 Read:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: God is spirit according in the passage: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Concern of the flesh of Christ it is Mary who beget it and not God: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" that is the son which Christ referring, but in the Bible did not state He is really a human.


There doesn't need to be a passage saying that the son is not God. The Bible consistently says Jesus is the son of God, so I believe Jesus is the son of God. The Bible never says Jesus actually is God. so I don't believe Jesus actually is God, as that would contradict the fact that Jesus is the son of God, because no-one can be his own son. I am the son of my father, and I also have a son of my own. I am somewhat like my father, and my son is somewhat like me. But I, my father, and my son are all distinct people.


Lione D' ea: Very blard you had almost you contradict what you saith.

end.

Edited by LioneDea, 25 May 2012 - 12:46 PM.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#23 Matt Smith

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:12 PM






What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters



Lione D' ea: I Corinthians 8:6 Let us read:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Lione D' ea: In the aspect which verse state is the God is one in being a Father, Jesus Christ which is the Son is came from Him also that is why He is part of His Godhead. The verse did not say the Son is not God it say "whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." To testify my statement the Son is came from Him and the Son is God and part of the Godhead in I John 1:18 Read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is part of the Godhead of the Father and He is God because He is begotten which came from the bosom of the Father, when the Father brought forth His Son what the Father do. In Psalms 2:7 Read:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Lione D' ea: The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man. For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


(end.)


The phrase "But to us there is but one God, the Father" eliminates everyone else from the equation. Your logic is faulty.



Lione D' ea: Jeremiah 26:2 Read:

Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: It is prohibited to lessen the word or phrase in the Bible because God command that all His law must speak. Concern in 8:6 the passage did not tell there is only absolute one God because His Son is God, the verse telling us that all things are came from Father including the Son. Let us read:

But to us there is but one God the Father, of...?

Lione D' ea: You have to acknowledge the little comma between two phrase there and also you have to consider the phrase or the word OF Matthew 5:18 Read:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lione D' ea: Therefore we have to acknowledge the little jot and one title because it is include in the law that is why Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 4:6 Read:I Corinthians 4:6 Read:



And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


Lione D' ea: Therefore you don't have to above what is written ever passage to say there is only one God. So Your logic is very faulty.


end.


I acknowledge the "of", and your logic is still faulty. If, as the passages says "of whom are all things, and we in him", this also eliminates Jesus from being God, for this tells us that the Father (who is God) is the originator of all things, including "the one Lord Jesus Christ".

God has no beginning (Psalm 90:2) - Jesus had a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31-35)
God cannot die (1 Timothy 1:17) - Jesus died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) - Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)
No man or woman has ever seen God (1 John 4:12) - Jesus was seen by both men and women (John 1:29)
God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) - Jesus was and is a man (1 Timothy 2:5)
God does not ever need to learn (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus had to grow and learn (Hebrews 5:8-9)
God does not need to be saved (Isaiah 45:7; 43:11) - Jesus needed salvation (Hebrews 5:7)
God cannot grow weary (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus grew weary (John 4:6)
God does not sleep (Psalm 121:2-4) - Jesus slept (Matthew 8:24)
God's power is unlimited (Isaiah 45:5-7) - Jesus was limited in his power (John 5:19)
God knows all (Isaiah 46:10) - Jesus had limited knowledge (Mark 13:32)
Matt Smith
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Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

#24 nsr

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:21 PM


If Jesus was God, he couldn't have been born, tempted, taught, killed, or resurrected. The whole point of the whole Bible is that Jesus did experience all of those things, and in the process made our hope of salvation possible. If he was God then he was just pretending that all of those things happened, or at best they were only happening to the human body he was trundling around in for 33 years.

The really amazing thing about Jesus was that he had man's nature but God's character, and was able to bridge the gap between us (man's nature and man's character) and God (God's nature and God's character). If he was God then that didn't happen. If he was God then it's impossible to have man's nature but God's character. Interestingly though, it is possible to have God's nature but man's character, if you believe in the false idea of Satan as a fallen angel, but that's another story.



Lione D' ea: I refute your statement there brother because there is nature in man which Jesus Christ did not do that is why when He said that...I was amaze and He is God.

end.

He can have one nature or the other. It isn't possible to have both. One is immortal and immune to temptation and unable to sin. The other is mortal and susceptible to temptation and capable of sin. The two are mutually incompatible.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#25 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:44 PM







What you say is not true according to the Bible. In the Bible we find the words "God the father" at least 12 times. But the words "God the son" are not found at all. God is the father; Jesus is his son, the son of the father. Jesus is the son of God; he is not himself God.



Lione D' ea: Wrong, In the Bible doesn't mean the phrase did not letter there God the Son in the context you will conclude the Son is not God, the truth is Bible teach to the reader the Son is God because He is part of the Godhead. If you insist the Son is not God then where we can read in the Bible the Son is not God?

(end.)


1 Corinthians 8:6 for starters



Lione D' ea: I Corinthians 8:6 Let us read:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Lione D' ea: In the aspect which verse state is the God is one in being a Father, Jesus Christ which is the Son is came from Him also that is why He is part of His Godhead. The verse did not say the Son is not God it say "whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." To testify my statement the Son is came from Him and the Son is God and part of the Godhead in I John 1:18 Read:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lione D' ea: The Son is part of the Godhead of the Father and He is God because He is begotten which came from the bosom of the Father, when the Father brought forth His Son what the Father do. In Psalms 2:7 Read:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Lione D' ea: The Father beget His only begotten Son, this is not referring to David because he is man not God because God cannot beget a man. For the manager who quoted the context, did the passage say the Son is not God there?


(end.)


The phrase "But to us there is but one God, the Father" eliminates everyone else from the equation. Your logic is faulty.



Lione D' ea: Jeremiah 26:2 Read:

Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: It is prohibited to lessen the word or phrase in the Bible because God command that all His law must speak. Concern in 8:6 the passage did not tell there is only absolute one God because His Son is God, the verse telling us that all things are came from Father including the Son. Let us read:

But to us there is but one God the Father, of...?

Lione D' ea: You have to acknowledge the little comma between two phrase there and also you have to consider the phrase or the word OF Matthew 5:18 Read:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lione D' ea: Therefore we have to acknowledge the little jot and one title because it is include in the law that is why Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 4:6 Read:I Corinthians 4:6 Read:



And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


Lione D' ea: Therefore you don't have to above what is written ever passage to say there is only one God. So Your logic is very faulty.


end.


I acknowledge the "of", and your logic is still faulty. If, as the passages says "of whom are all things, and we in him", this also eliminates Jesus from being God, for this tells us that the Father (who is God) is the originator of all things, including "the one Lord Jesus Christ".

God has no beginning (Psalm 90:2) - Jesus had a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31-35)
God cannot die (1 Timothy 1:17) - Jesus died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) - Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)
No man or woman has ever seen God (1 John 4:12) - Jesus was seen by both men and women (John 1:29)
God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) - Jesus was and is a man (1 Timothy 2:5)
God does not ever need to learn (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus had to grow and learn (Hebrews 5:8-9)
God does not need to be saved (Isaiah 45:7; 43:11) - Jesus needed salvation (Hebrews 5:7)
God cannot grow weary (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus grew weary (John 4:6)
God does not sleep (Psalm 121:2-4) - Jesus slept (Matthew 8:24)
God's power is unlimited (Isaiah 45:5-7) - Jesus was limited in his power (John 5:19)
God knows all (Isaiah 46:10) - Jesus had limited knowledge (Mark 13:32)



I acknowledge the "of", and your logic is still faulty. If, as the passages says "of whom are all things, and we in him", this also eliminates Jesus from being God, for this tells us that the Father (who is God) is the originator of all things, including "the one Lord Jesus Christ".


God has no beginning (Psalm 90:2) - Jesus had a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31-35)



Lione D’ ea: Why Jesus Christ had no beginning Mathew 1:21,23 Read:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lione D’ ea: Jesus Christ is not man because according in the scripture the God is with us therefore Christ is God, in Luke 1:32,35 Read:

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lione D’ ea: The born baby which mary concieving is Jesus Christ and the Bible call Him as Son of God. What is the Holy Spirit that come upon to Mary that the power of the highest shall overshadow to her what in Hebrews 10:5 Read:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Lione D’ ea: there was a body which prepared for Him by God the Father so that the Son which is God will enter in that Body so the spirit of Christ was existed when He not yet manifest in the flesh because He was cometh into the world, He only made likeness of men meaning He was manifesting in the flesh in Ephesians 2:5-7

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Lione D’ ea: Therefore He is not Man He is God and HE is equal in God not in being a Father because HE is Son in eternal, and He did not first exist in earth He was exist in eternal was in Proverbs 8:22 Read:

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,

Lione D’ ea: The Lord possessed Him in eternal in where. In John 1:18 Read?

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father,

Lione D’ ea: He was in the bosom of the Father in that time meaning Father possesed His Son in was. So is Jesus Christ had beginning in Hebrews 13:8 Read:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Lione D’ ea: Jesus Christ don’t had beginning Because the Son was with the Father, therefore God the Father is not alone in eternal because He possessed His Son.



God cannot die (1 Timothy 1:17) - Jesus died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)



Lione D’ ea: I Corinthians 15:21 Read:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Lione D’ ea: Who is the resurrection according in the Bible, in John 11:25 Read:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Lione D’ ea: Jesus Christ is the resurrection to prove He is the life also in John 14:6 Read:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Lione D’ ea: Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life. So is Jesus really die including His spirit in Matthew 10:28 Read?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Lione D’ ea: The man has no capacity nor power to kill the soul only God can. The spirit of Christ never die but the flesh which He manifest was die on the cross in I Peter 3:18 Read:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Lione D’ ea: Therefore the spirit of Jesus Christ is God and cannot kill by man.


God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) - Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)



Lione D’ ea: I read James 1:13:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,

Lione D’ ea: God will not be tempted with evil things, so is Jesus Christ was tempted in Matthew 4:3 Read?

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Lione D’ ea: Jesus Christ was not tempted which the tempter provoke him to made a bread. Concern of the things of tribulation which Christ had experience in John 16:33 Read:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Lione D’ ea: That is why in Hebrews 4:15 it says:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Lione D’ ea: The tempted which the passage referring to Christ was the tribulation he encountered first there was Satan follow that are Jews.


No man or woman has ever seen God (1 John 4:12) - Jesus was seen by both men and women (John 1:29)



Lione D’ ea: Because He was manifest in the flesh according by Paul in I Timothy 3:16 Read:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Lione D’ ea: Also Apostle John testify it the Son was maniffest in the flesh in John 1:1-3,14 Read:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Lione D’ ea: Man, woman and Apostle see him.


God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) - Jesus was and is a man (1 Timothy 2:5)



Lione D’ ea: Is Jesus Christ is Man Let us read I Timothy 2:5 and forward:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Lione D’ ea: Why is one God…because the one God is in earth manifest in the flesh while the one God is in Heaven that is my answer.


God does not ever need to learn (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus had to grow and learn (Hebrews 5:8-9)



Lione D’ ea: Hebrew 5:8-9 I Read:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Lione D’ ea: What is the learned which passage reffering. In Philippians 2:5 Read:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Lione D’ ea: The Jesus Christ in the form of human likeness he not robbery to be equal in God because He took off his equality with God, he became humbled himself and obedient in the sight of the Lord until the death of the cross.


God does not need to be saved (Isaiah 45:7; 43:11) - Jesus needed salvation (Hebrews 5:7)



Lione D’ ea: First and foremost the phrase nor word salvation was not found in the passage. The passage said:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Lione D’ ea: It is true Jesus Christ prayed in God to prove in John 17:1 and forward:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Lione D’ ea: Does that mean Jesu Christ is totally man, in verse 5 Let us read?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Lione D’ ea: Before the world was He was exist with had a glory therefore He is not just a man.


God cannot grow weary (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus grew weary (John 4:6)



Lione D’ ea: God in the Bible can weary in Isaiah 1:14 Read:

Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Lione D’ ea: This is my second question for all member of christadelphians what supposedly mean by the passage He is weary.


God does not sleep (Psalm 121:2-4) - Jesus slept (Matthew 8:24)



Lione D’ ea: II Corinthians 11:14 Read:

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Lione D’ ea: The Bible teach us nature, sleeping is nature in man but is Jesus Christ really a Man in John 8:58 Jesus Christ Himself state:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Lione D’ ea: How come you say Hs is man that according to Christ before Abraham was, He was existed. more I believe in what Christ said that to what you said.


God's power is unlimited (Isaiah 45:5-7) - Jesus was limited in his power (John 5:19)


God knows all (Isaiah 46:10) - Jesus had limited knowledge (Mark 13:32)




Lione D’ ea: Because Jesus Christ was humbled and became obedient in God in Philippians 2:8 Read:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Lione D’ ea: The Son cannot lead to the will of the Father. The question is who is the power and knowledge of God in I Corinthians 1:24 Read:

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Lione D’ ea: How come you say Christ had limited power and limited in knowledge which is contrary on what the passage says, according in the passage Christ is the power and wisdom of God therefore God is not alone in was.

end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#26 LioneDea

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Eherm!

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#27 nsr

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:37 PM

Want some friendly advice? Since it appears English isn't your first language, I suggest you read a slightly more understandable Bible translation than the KJV.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#28 LioneDea

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

Want some friendly advice? Since it appears English isn't your first language, I suggest you read a slightly more understandable Bible translation than the KJV.



Lione D' ea: James 2:9; Romans 2:11; it say's:

But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.

For God does not show favoritism. (New Living Translation)

Lione D' ea: Before I obey someone like you first I must obey my God, Acts 5:29 Read:

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Lione D' ea: This is the advice come from the Bible.


Sincerely in Christ:

Lione D' ea


Edited by LioneDea, 27 May 2012 - 11:48 AM.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#29 nsr

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:21 PM

:confused:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#30 Matt Smith

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:44 PM

:confused:


Probably one of those KJV only people...
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