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John 1:1


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#1 Jesse2W

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 11:07 PM

Does the word "with" (the word was with God) indicate the logos is not an impersonal attribute?
Does the word "with" personify the logos here?
If the word was divine, then does that mean Jesus is divine?
Would John have written anything different if he wanted to say the logos was *of* God?

Edited by Jesse2W, 18 August 2011 - 11:07 PM.


#2 Jesse2W

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:42 AM

I figured it out. If we think of God as a human and the word as His hand, then it all becomes clear.
In the beginning was the hand, the hand was with God and the hand was God. It was God's hand. This means that someone's spoken word is a part of them, if they never change and are always truthful. If Jesus is a part of God made flesh, then does that mean he is God too?

#3 nsr

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:55 AM

Jesus is not the word, he is the word made flesh. The two are not the same thing. Think of the word as an architect's blueprint, and the word made flesh as the building that results.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#4 Jesse2W

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:30 PM

Jesus is not the word, he is the word made flesh. The two are not the same thing. Think of the word as an architect's blueprint, and the word made flesh as the building that results.

It seems like Jesus is a part of God in the form of flesh. If he was the logos, then would that make him a part of God? If so, then the only thing that separates Jesus from Godhood is "made flesh." That's what trinitarians say: Jesus is God (specifically God in the flesh).


The (blueprint) was with (the architect) and the (blueprint) was ([qualitatively] the architect) and the (blueprint) was made (a building).
Problem 1. A blueprint is not the architect who wrote it nor a part.
Problem 2. A blueprint isn't made a building.


God is made up of parts/aspects. God is a person, the Father. I am made up of parts/aspects. I am the person Jesse. If I lose my hand, then I lose a part of myself and am no longer the Jesse with the hand. God never changes so He did not lose the logos when it became flesh. The logos just gained flesh in the person of Jesus. Can the logos can gain other humans too? Like when we become resurrected with the mind of God and never change. Jesus was perfect from birth, but believers will be perfect from their resurrection.

#5 nsr

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:07 PM

I think you're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be. When you start talking about God being made up of "parts/aspects" then you're talking about things the Bible never mentions, and that's a very dangerous route to start going down.

John's gospel is by far the most complex of the four, and arguably the most complex book in the Bible after Revelation. It should never be used to establish first principles such as the nature of God and the nature of Christ. Our understanding of John needs to be developed within the boundaries laid down by what the rest of Scripture tells us about God and Jesus. It should not be read in isolation, and we cannot interpret it in a way that contradicts the rest of the Bible.

For instance, look at the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jesus: a man, a descendant of Eve/Abraham/David, through whom God would fulfil all of the promises to do with the land, the deliverance of Israel, the conquest of sin, and the provision of atonement for God's people. There is nothing whatsoever in the OT to support any notion of Jesus being a pre-existent logos.

Problem 1. A blueprint is not the architect who wrote it nor a part.

It's a figure of speech. It doesn't make sense to take "the word was with God, and the word was God" literally. You can't be a person and also be with that person.

Problem 2. A blueprint isn't made a building.

Not literally, no. It's another figure of speech. Jesus is God's word made flesh. He is the word of God manifested in the life of a human being.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#6 Jesse2W

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 04:43 AM

So the majority of Christendom has gone astray for taking John 1:1 literally? I can't use that as an argument against trinitarians!
God is clearly made up of parts; He is love, spirit, wisdom (which is the logos), and a lot more.
I liken it to a parent's seed (DNA). It is the parent until it becomes a flesh of it's own. I am what my parent's seed became. Jesus is what God's word became. The word which was alone God, until it became God's son, Jesus. God's word is like His DNA. God's "DNA" or seed became Jesus. We can become son's of God when the word of God comes to us and changes who we are.

Edited by Jesse2W, 21 August 2011 - 04:45 AM.


#7 nsr

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 08:38 AM

So the majority of Christendom has gone astray for taking John 1:1 literally? I can't use that as an argument against trinitarians!

Not just John 1:1, there's a lot of passages in John where Jesus is not speaking literally, and lots of errors arise when people think he is. For example, Nicodemus was confused because he thought Jesus was saying a man needed to be literally born again, when Jesus in fact meant spiritually born again.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#8 Mark Taunton

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 05:47 PM

What would it mean to take John 1:1 "literally"? Trinitarians don't do so! They read the verse as if it said "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God". But that's not what it says, at all. The Greek word used there, "logos", is the word for "word", not the word "Jesus".

I believe we should take John 1:1 to mean what it says. To see that this makes sense, we just follow the huge flashing arrow of the first phrase: "in the beginning". This of course directs us right back to Genesis, where we read:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(Genesis 1:1-3)

Right in the beginning, we find God saying something: "let there be light" (or, "let light become"). That is, he uttered his word. And the result of that word was immediate: "and there was light" (or, "and light became"). So what God said, came into existence. What God intended, he said, and what he said (that is, his word), became reality. So God's intention was realised exactly as he meant it to be, by his word.

When we see light, we are seeing something God made, which directly reflects what he is. This is true, not so much in the physical sense as in the spiritual significance which is an intrinsic part of the record of creation:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
(1 John 1:5-7)

So, when John writes: "in the beginning was the word", he is taking us back to that initial speaking of God, where he expressed his intention in words, and his utterance, his word, was realised. God's word expresses God's intention, which he accomplishes through that word. And that intention is divine - it is the expression of the will of God himself.

When John in the gospel record goes on to say "all things were made by him" (John 1:3), he uses in the Greek a word directly equivalent to the Hebrew word for "become" in Genesis 1:3. That is, all things came into existence by means of the word of God. That's exactly what we find several times in the record of creation: "and God said ...", "and it was so".

This is all just as the psalmist tells us:

For the word of Yahweh is right; and all his works are done in truth.
He loves righteousness and judgement: the earth is full of the goodness of Yahweh.
By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap: he lays up the depth in storehouses.
Let all the earth fear Yahweh: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
For he spoke, and it became; he commanded, and it stood fast.
(Psalm 33:4-9)

And one final point, related to Jesse's first question:

The Greek word translated "with" in John 1:1 is 'pros'. Its primary meaning is not "with" but "to" or "unto" or "towards" - the great majority of its uses are translated that way. John is telling us that God's word was towards God. What does that mean? God's own explanation is given in Isaiah:

Seek Yahweh while he may be found, call upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto Yahweh, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says Yahweh
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall do what I please, and it shall prosper in what I sent it for.
(Isaiah 55:6-11)

God tells us that he sends his word down from heaven, and it will not return to him "void" or "empty", but it will do his will. We have seen this in creation: what God made by his word was pleasing to him "behold, it was very good" (Gen 1:31). But even more so, this is concerned with Jesus. When God sent forth his son, made of a woman (Gal 4:4), his word become flesh (John 1:14), Jesus always did what pleased his father (John 8:29), and accomplished his will in his obedience, living out his word fully, even to the extent of laying down his soul.

But not only has Jesus himself now returned to God, by his own death he has also redeemed a great number of sinners, who are brought near to God in him, through that same word Jesus lived out completely. We can be among them, but to do so we need to heed God's words though Isaiah, and return to Yahweh, forsaking our own wicked way and our unrighteous thoughts. And it is the word of God, which he sent into the world and has come unto us, by which God himself can accomplish that in us, just as Isaiah says.

So God's word is towards God, because that is the direction he want us to go in. If we let that word work in us, just as God's word worked out his will in the beginning, and was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus, then ultimately we too will come to share in the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), as Jesus does now and all God's people one day will also. Ultimately, God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28) - his word will have accomplished all his will, completely.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 21 August 2011 - 09:01 PM.
corrected a reference


#9 Jesse2W

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:14 AM

Thank you for that last post Mark, but another question has got me thinking. How much personification is going on in John 1:2-4?

He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

As you can see there are for personifications. Would it be wrong to translate this passage as:

It was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In it was life, and the life was the Light of men

Does the Greek allow room for that type of possibility or is this a wrong translation of the Greek text? Regardless of how I translate it I understand it this way so I need to know if it is meant to be taken as a person.

#10 Mark Taunton

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:58 AM

Hi Jesse,

Indeed the Greek does allow for that, and it is not a wrong translation. The word 'logos' ("word") is grammatically masculine, which is one reason why many English translations put "him" for the pronouns in the early part of John 1. But that doesn't make "the word" a male person, any more than some other Greek noun being grammatically feminine (e.g. the word 'skotia', "darkness", at verse 5) makes it a female person!

In fact not all English translations put "him". Here is one very old version that doesn't:

1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.

That is William Tyndale's translation. (Obtained from http://wesley.nnu.ed...es-translation/).

#11 Jesse2W

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:47 PM

That's great news, but some non-preexistence believers including Dr. Buzzard (I heard him say it once) say it is personified? Where is the personification if this is a possible translation? The fact that it is "with" God?

Edited by Jesse2W, 07 January 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#12 Matt Smith

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:30 AM

That's great news, but some non-preexistence believers including Dr. Buzzard (I heard him say it once) say it is personified? Where is the personification if this is a possible translation? The fact that it is "with" God?


Wisdom was with God too... Proverbs 3:13-19 etc. The word in this way can also be personification...
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#13 LioneDea

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:17 AM

Lione D' ea: Even you read that passage in Greek the out come of your investigation there is the Word is God and the Word was WITH God. Just like Coffee and Cream, Coffee with cream.


Beware of the dogs.

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#14 Matt Smith

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:53 PM

Lione D' ea: Even you read that passage in Greek the out come of your investigation there is the Word is God and the Word was WITH God. Just like Coffee and Cream, Coffee with cream.


Beware of the dogs.


And...?
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#15 nsr

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:16 PM

LioneDea, can you please make sure that your posts make sense to English readers? It appears you don't understand English - would it be possble for you to find a friend who does and ask them to proof read what you are posting to ensure it makes sense?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#16 LioneDea

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:32 PM

LioneDea, can you please make sure that your posts make sense to English readers? It appears you don't understand English - would it be possble for you to find a friend who does and ask them to proof read what you are posting to ensure it makes sense?


Lione D' ea: According in John 1:1 The Logos was with God and the Logos is God(Theos) therefore two(2) person were mention in this passage, clearly saying that Jesus Christ is not Man. Do you understand English Bible if you do I ask you a question:

Question:
Is Jesus Christ Man or God?

end.

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#17 Richie

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:21 PM

Jesus Christ is man - see 1 Timothy 2:5.

John 1:1 does not mention Jesus. He is not mentioned specifically until verse 14, and he is word made flesh, which proves that he is not literally the word.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#18 LioneDea

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:51 PM

Jesus Christ is man - see 1 Timothy 2:5.

John 1:1 does not mention Jesus. He is not mentioned specifically until verse 14, and he is word made flesh, which proves that he is not literally the word.



Lione D' ea: Wrong...the statement of I Timothy 2:5 was not ended in verse five(5) let us read again verse 5 up to 6 it said:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

6 which gave himself a ransom for all men, that it should be preached at his time, ( Tyndale New Testament)





Lione D' ea: If you notice the little jot and the word which in that particular verses you cannot conclude the man mentioning in the passages is Jesus Christ because the passage is specific to the man which ransom by the flesh and blood of the Lord. If Jesus Christ is the man mentioning in that passage, why he must offer himself to atone for his own self. If you read the whole context there you will find out it is not the Christ the man which ransom referred by the passage, let us find out who is that man which purchase by the Lord in Acts 20:28 Read:

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: The Man which I Timothy 2:5-6 referred is the Church which God the Christ purchased with his own blood how is that happened he is totally a man, Paul will disagree christadelphians because for Paul Jesus Christ is God Romans 9:5 Read:

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. ( English Standard Version)





Lione D' ea: Another cited John 20:28 Read:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: For Apostle Thomas Jesus Christ is Lord and God another cited II Peter 1:1 Read:

Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. ( Douay-Rheims Bible)

Lione D' ea: For Apostle Peter Jesus Christ is God and Saviour and .


Question:

1.) If Christ was the man referred in the passage why should he offer his own life for his own redemption?
2.) In John 1:1 to 14, Who is that mentioned in whole Bible who was made flesh?


end.

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#19 Search_B

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:09 AM

I note of John 1:1, that the word we translate as, "beginning", arche, comes up from, archomai, and means in a properly abstract sense, "a commencement."

 

The word it comes from, "archomai", means, "(through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time).."

 

The above information is found in Strong's Greek Dictionary, G0746 and G056.

 

God has always existed and was not commenced.   The thought is that the Word was in God's commencement of things as the chief or first of all to be thereafter commenced.

 

There are a few different ways one can take that.  One might take it to mean that if anyone or anything were in God's plans there at the very start of his creating, then all such creatures or things could be said to have been in the beginning with God (but all only as in God's plans which we know cannot fail to eventually come to be).  But that does not hold up under scrutiny.

 

G0746, arche, denotes that Jesus existed as the chief of all things that God commenced to create.  It is just that after the beginning laid by God, which beginning was Jesus, is just as the pattern of the temple we see built at Ephesians 2:20 with "Jesus Christ being the head cornerstone."

 

There is a pattern in all that God does and that pattern of how he laid Jesus as the foundation for his temple is a dead give away as to what was done there as spoken of at John 1:1.

 

Jesus, by another name and as a mighty spirit creature, was that beginning of the creation of God: Revelation 3:14  "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

 

And that is how it is that he can be said to be in that beginning with God.  he was the beginning of God's work of creating and through him come all (other0 things, just as all mankind came through Eve to Adam.

 

Otherwise we must ignore to much of the testimony Jesus himself gave concerning it:

 

John 17:5  "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

John 8:58  "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."  Which can just as correctly understood as translated, "I am before Abraham was."   The whole "ego eimi" idea meaning that Jesus claimed to be God is just more wild and unprofitable speculation by those anxious to find support for what they were taught.

 

But Jesus clearly believed he had a prior existence with his Father in heaven.  He is first in all things.  You know the verse.  He was the first to be created of the things in heaven and the first to be resurrected form the dead to eternal life from among men.  He is first over all as the chief foundation stone lain of God which God then used to create through him and in him, just like Paul sows us at Ephesians 2:20.. 


Edited by Search_B, 08 October 2017 - 07:08 AM.


#20 Search_B

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 08:58 AM

In the  Bible Discussion Forum → Daily Life - Then and Now → Cherith → Bible Studies,  What is meant to be born again? thread, I mentioned in post number 16:  "It is helpful to remember that when Adam was first created, the Scriptures tell us, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ..." (Genesis 1:26)"

Here in this thread I should explain that further, as it helps to understand more precisely what was meant at Genesis 1:26 by that phrase, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."   And it explains why, as Rho mentioned in post 10, "In fact not all English translations put "him". Here is one very old version that doesn't", referring to the Tyndale translation of John 1:1-5.

Notice Paul's words as follows: "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man." (1 Corinthians 11:7)

Yes, Adam, whom Luke identifies as "the son of God" (Luke 3:38), was created in God's image as God's glory and the woman in Adam's image as Adam's glory, just as Paul said.  Why did Paul say that?  Very simply because God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

What we see is that Adam represents God and Eve represents the helpmeet through and in whom God created all (other) things that in Christ all things are held together to God as the Father.

Many do not like it when I insert that word, (other).  God gave of himself to make his helpmeet even as Adam was made to give of himself to make Eve.  And the two were one flesh.  Similarly, Jesus is one substance and spirit with God.  And this is where the confusion over what is divine rests.  All that came through Eve are the same substance as Adam.  Eve had no other substance to give to her offspring.    All that were created through and in God's helpmeet are the same substance as God.  God's helpmeet had no other substance to give those that came through and in her or him.

The gender in Scripture changes by the relationship of authority.  In relation to God the helpmeet is considered feminine because God is her head.  But in relation to us that same helpmeet is considered masculine, for he has authority over us.  There is no actual sex in heaven among God's creatures.  That is also why in Christ the principle as to headship is expressed the following way:   "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

If we would just slow down and look and learn apart from thinking we already know, we would see these simple things.  And each of these simple things we see act as keys to open up yet more understanding in the Scriptures.  Now, that is not a bad thing.  There is great gain in being empty enough that we can be gradually filled by what we yet have to discover of God.


Edited by Search_B, 08 October 2017 - 09:02 AM.


#21 fredjames

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:46 AM

Jesus is not the word, he is the word made flesh. The two are not the same thing. Think of the word as an architect's blueprint, and the word made flesh as the building that results.

 

Gibberish!

 

The Gospel according to Apostle John, from chapter 1 and verse 1 onward, is clearly referring to JESUS who was the 'Word' in the beginning. That is before He was made 'flesh', in verse 14.



#22 fredjames

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:33 AM

Where does the Scripture say that JESUS is the 'Word', that Himself is the 'Word of GOD' from the beginning, and too the 'image' of the invisible only true GOD?

 

Hebrews 1:

 

3. Who being the brightness of HIS(GOD) Glory, and the express image of HIS(GOD) person, and upholding all things by the power of HIS(GOD) word.

 

JESUS is no 'logos' like us who are the house, when He is the builder and owner of the house, while Moses was the builder..

 

Hebrews 3:

 

6. But CHRIST as a SON over His own house; whose house are we(logos), if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

Moreover, who was the Word that was made flesh?

 

1 Corinthians 15:

 

47. The first man is of the earth, earthly: the second man is the LORD from Heaven.

 

Where in the Scripture also say, JESUS is God over all the 'logos'?

 

Romans 9:

 

5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh CHRIST came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


Edited by fredjames, 14 November 2017 - 08:42 AM.





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