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Ten Reasons Why People Fall


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#61 ADY

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 10:34 AM

I find Frank Abel's article sickening

I hate the way people just reel off "leaving the Truth" as though the very mixed content of Christadelphia was Jesus Christ Himself

Articles like this do NOTHING to help people, they merely reinforce stereotypical and judgmental views of those who have left, or are in the process of leaving, or being kicked out (and usually very hardly)

Other than this, I echo Julian's comments
"Test everything against the word and spirit of God's Word and hold on tightly to that which is proven to be good and true"

#62 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 10:45 AM

I think from this thread it's now clear that the top 10 reasons why people fall away from the truth do not include messy marriages and being discouraged by your brethren when you need love.

The parable of the sower - incredibly - doesn't mention any of those, for example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Hi Fort. No, I do not agree. It is in my opinion one of the top 2 reasons. Then comes apathy and loss of faith, love of the world more than love of God etc.


If we look in the list provided by Scripture, where does marriage breakup get a mention? Where does lack of love for brethren get a mention in the parable of the sower? Or in the lists given so frequently by Paul? A lack of love for God is certainly mentioned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Hi Fort.

LK 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should CAUSE one of these little ones TO STUMBLE.

MT 18:6 but whoever CAUSES one of these little ones who believe in me TO STUMBLE, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.

GAL 6:1 Brothers, even if a man is caught in some fault, you who are spiritual must restore such a one in a SPIRIT OF GENTLENESS; looking to yourself so that you also aren't tempted.

JAS 5:19-20 Brothers, if any among you WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins. (wow!!!!)

ROM 14:21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, NOR DO ANYTHING by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.

GAL 6:2 BEAR one another's burdens, and SO fulfill the law of Christ.

1PET 3:8-9 Finally, be all like-minded, COMPASSIONATE, loving as brothers, tenderhearted, courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but instead blessing; knowing that to this were you called, that you may inherit a blessing.

OK, I can't find anywhere that says a marriage bust up causes people to leave the truth, but as Amy pointed out, it is the dealings afterwards that can do.

Lack of love/support certainly would be a major reason... I can find more passages to suppoort that if you wish?

Love in Jesus, Julian

#63 Martyn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:03 AM

Articles like this do NOTHING to help people, they merely reinforce stereotypical and judgmental views of those who have left, or are in the process of leaving, or being kicked out

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Kicked out' is your expression. It's not in the article, which actually calls for us to look at ourselves:

Our first line of defense is to correctly assess our own weaknesses.

It's a warning for everyone to examine themselves first, and only then look to others.

So you think those ten reasons are inaccurate, insufficient, or what?

#64 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:52 AM

Articles like this do NOTHING to help people, they merely reinforce stereotypical and judgmental views of those who have left, or are in the process of leaving, or being kicked out

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Kicked out' is your expression. It's not in the article, which actually calls for us to look at ourselves:

Our first line of defense is to correctly assess our own weaknesses.

It's a warning for everyone to examine themselves first, and only then look to others.

So you think those ten reasons are inaccurate, insufficient, or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hi Martyn.

It is not that it is inaccurate in my view, just that it is leaving out ALL the reasons (and the most important ones as far as I can see).

So, I would say insufficient rather than inaccurate.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#65 Tarkus

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 01:33 PM

Lack of fraternal love isn't the commonest criticism of the NT ecclesia, no. On the other hand fraternal love is one of the commonest exhortations in the NT ecclesia. Julian and others are talking about the products of deficient fraternal love.

Forget the parable of the sower for a moment and think about the shepherd. Are you one of the brethren who would sit down in his armchair and say "That's good, we only lost one! Paul said that apathy and love of pleasure and selfishness and materialism and lust and lack of study would cost us fifty percent at least!"

T

#66 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 01:45 PM

Lack of fraternal love isn't the commonest criticism of the NT ecclesia, no. On the other hand fraternal love is one of the commonest exhortations in the NT ecclesia. Julian and others are talking about the products of deficient fraternal love.

Forget the parable of the sower for a moment and think about the shepherd. Are you one of the brethren who would sit down in his armchair and say "That's good, we only lost one! Paul said that apathy and love of pleasure and selfishness and materialism and lust and lack of study would cost us fifty percent at least!"

T

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Hi Tarkus. You are quite correct, I am talking of that which is exhorted to be, not being so. This then leading to the sorry situation of one leaving the community (note: not therefore the truth).

Maybe we should be thinking about this slightly differently? For example, I am hardly at my Ecclesia (though for the sake of my children and Wife, that will have to change soon).

Am I any less involved with the truth? Nope, in fact have been more so. Am I feeling I am slipping away from God and His word? Nope, have felt closer, done even more study than I ever have. Do I feel I am letting Jesus down? Only in the fact that I often feel bitter towards those I feel have not cared for me and my family in our distress.

So, where is the downside? I miss not being around a family, it is good to cometogether (in a 3D way) to worship God, to pray together, to reason together, to show love for eachother.

Now, if ONLY I could find such a place!!

Yeah, I am aware that I ALSO have to be that sort of person, not sulking and skulking.

It is worth noting that one who attends all meetings, boots blacked, might do little in the way of good works, wheras one who hardly attends might be real busy with them. Who is more the Christian?

OK, I am not saying one does not need to attned the Ecclesial gathering, but I think the point should be made. There are many bums on seats that seem to do little else but crow about that fact, putting others down as a bad lot for lacking in attendance.

How would Jesus judge that do you think?

Love in Jesus, Julian

#67 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 01:52 PM

Oh one other thing.

It is actually possible you know for an indevidual to WITHDRAW his/herfellowship from the community (or from the one Ecclesia). It is equally as important. The majority are NOT always in the right.

If I felt strongly enough about it, I would not hesitate to withdraw from an Ecclesia that was showing a bad image of Christianity.

Maybe THAT also should be seen as a valid reason for one leaving the community. As I say, you will find many leave because THEY are the ones who find the community wanting (or the bit they have been in). They are NOT therefore automatically in the wrong.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#68 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:18 PM

Lack of fraternal love isn't the commonest criticism of the NT ecclesia, no. On the other hand fraternal love is one of the commonest exhortations in the NT ecclesia. Julian and others are talking about the products of deficient fraternal love.

Forget the parable of the sower for a moment and think about the shepherd. Are you one of the brethren who would sit down in his armchair and say "That's good, we only lost one! Paul said that apathy and love of pleasure and selfishness and materialism and lust and lack of study would cost us fifty percent at least!"

T

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Hi Tarkus. You are quite correct, I am talking of that which is exhorted to be, not being so. This then leading to the sorry situation of one leaving the community (note: not therefore the truth).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks Julian, the part in bold is exactly what I have been saying.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#69 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:19 PM

Oh one other thing.

It is actually possible you know for an indevidual to WITHDRAW his/herfellowship from the community (or from the one Ecclesia). It is equally as important. The majority are NOT always in the right.

If I felt strongly enough about it, I would not hesitate to withdraw from an Ecclesia that was showing a bad image of Christianity.

Maybe THAT also should be seen as a valid reason for one leaving the community. As I say, you will find many leave because THEY are the ones who find the community wanting (or the bit they have been in). They are NOT therefore automatically in the wrong.

Love in Jesus, Julian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Withdrawing from the whole community because of the sins of part of the community is called 'bloc disfellowship', and is certainly wrong, no matter how noble the motivation.

The history of our community has proved that this is a terrible and wantonly destructive action.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#70 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:22 PM

Lack of fraternal love isn't the commonest criticism of the NT ecclesia, no.


Thank you. Nor is it in the top ten list of 'reasons why people fall away from the truth'.

On the other hand fraternal love is one of the commonest exhortations in the NT ecclesia. Julian and others are talking about the products of deficient fraternal love.

Forget the parable of the sower for a moment and think about the shepherd. Are you one of the brethren who would sit down in his armchair and say "That's good, we only lost one! Paul said that apathy and love of pleasure and selfishness and materialism and lust and lack of study would cost us fifty percent at least!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh absolutely, I certainly agree! Lacklustre shepherds are certainly condemned by Christ and Paul.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#71 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:24 PM

Oh one other thing.

It is actually possible you know for an indevidual to WITHDRAW his/herfellowship from the community (or from the one Ecclesia). It is equally as important. The majority are NOT always in the right.

If I felt strongly enough about it, I would not hesitate to withdraw from an Ecclesia that was showing a bad image of Christianity.

Maybe THAT also should be seen as a valid reason for one leaving the community. As I say, you will find many leave because THEY are the ones who find the community wanting (or the bit they have been in). They are NOT therefore automatically in the wrong.

Love in Jesus, Julian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Withdrawing from the whole community because of the sins of part of the community is called 'bloc disfellowship', and is certainly wrong, no matter how noble the motivation.

The history of our community has proved that this is a terrible and wantonly destructive action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



OK, it might be destructive if it were the whole community, but what about an indevidual Ecclesia? Are you saying it should never be the case that an indevidual person withdraws from an errant Ecclesia?

Love in Jesus, Julian

#72 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:25 PM

Hi Fort.

LK 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should CAUSE one of these little ones TO STUMBLE.

MT 18:6 but whoever CAUSES one of these little ones who believe in me TO STUMBLE, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.

GAL 6:1 Brothers, even if a man is caught in some fault, you who are spiritual must restore such a one in a SPIRIT OF GENTLENESS; looking to yourself so that you also aren't tempted.

JAS 5:19-20 Brothers, if any among you WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.  (wow!!!!)

ROM 14:21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, NOR DO ANYTHING by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.

GAL 6:2 BEAR one another's burdens, and SO fulfill the law of Christ.

1PET 3:8-9 Finally, be all like-minded, COMPASSIONATE, loving as brothers, tenderhearted, courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but instead blessing; knowing that to this were you called, that you may inherit a blessing.


Nothing there about leaving the truth - as Tarkus says, these are exhortations to be loving, but none of them refer to people leaving the truth because of a lack of love.

OK, I can't find anywhere that says a marriage bust up causes people to leave the truth, but as Amy pointed out, it is the dealings afterwards that can do.


Yes. And what Scripture does warn about is marriages which were a bad idea to start with. It warns us that they will end in disaster.

Of course, how many people listen?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#73 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:25 PM

OK, it might be destructive if it were the whole community, but what about an indevidual Ecclesia? Are you saying it should never be the case that an indevidual person withdraws from an errant Ecclesia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Certainly not. I would consider that perfectly correct, if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#74 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:53 PM

hi Jon.

>>Nothing there about leaving the truth - as Tarkus says, these are exhortations to be loving, but none of them refer to people leaving the truth because of a lack of love.<<

Ah yes, but if this does NOT happen, then it would lead to such, that is the point.

My point is that it does NOT happen enough as is exhorted.


>>Yes. And what Scripture does warn about is marriages which were a bad idea to start with. It warns us that they will end in disaster.<<

Tell me about it!! ;-) (just a little humour).

Love in Jesus, Julian

#75 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:55 PM

hi Jon.

>>Nothing there about leaving the truth - as Tarkus says, these are exhortations to be loving, but none of them refer to people leaving the truth because of a lack of love.<<

Ah yes, but if this does NOT happen, then it would lead to such, that is the point.


It could, but Scripture doesn't seem to make the connection.

My point is that it does NOT happen enough as is exhorted.


I certainly agree.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#76 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:58 PM

OK, it might be destructive if it were the whole community, but what about an indevidual Ecclesia? Are you saying it should never be the case that an indevidual person withdraws from an errant Ecclesia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Certainly not. I would consider that perfectly correct, if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Ah well, what YOU might consider errant and what I might consider errant might not be given exactly the same importance, right?

For example, you MIGHT think it the wrong motivation if one withdrew from an Ecclesia that was uncaring, I would say that is the gravest of error, a huge stumbling block.

When I see some leave an Ecclesia over how the chairs are put out, or over the order of service, or what clothes people are wearing, then that IS ridiculous.

I would agree that if one stomps off in a huff, that would be all to do with flesh, no matter what the provocation. That could be more to do with human pride than anything else.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#77 Sarah S

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:03 PM

There are many bums on seats that seem to do little else but crow about that fact, putting others down as a bad lot for lacking in attendance.

Hmmm - how would you know that unless you knew the person in question (and their life) pretty well, probably as a result of spending time with them?

I have found more people openly criticising "good attenders" as being empty and "that's all they do" or "hypocrites" than I have heard "good attenders" criticising those who attend infrequently. In fact, my experience has been that the "good attenders" worry about the "poor attenders", sorrowing over their lack of contact and wanting to try to work out ways they could help (but often floundering in ignorance of how to help!). Surely my experience has not been abnormal.

"Poor attenders" should also consider what messages they send to "good attenders" by seeming to not want to be with them.... Its hard when you want to be a proper family and someone just doesn't join in. Many "good attenders" have stronger relationships with their bre&sis simply by virtue of spending more time with them. This can, of course, make the "poor attenders" feel left out.... but if people want to be on the edges, is it even right to try and force them to join in?

There's always two sides to every story....

Sorry - I know that's :book: but its so important not to blame everyone else for the way we feel, and to humbly & honestly recognise (as Julian pointed out) that there's stuff WE have to do too...

Edited by Sarah S, 20 July 2005 - 04:05 PM.


#78 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:07 PM

OK, it might be destructive if it were the whole community, but what about an indevidual Ecclesia? Are you saying it should never be the case that an indevidual person withdraws from an errant Ecclesia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Certainly not. I would consider that perfectly correct, if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Ah well, what YOU might consider errant and what I might consider errant might not be given exactly the same importance, right?


That is precisely why I said 'if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner'.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#79 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:28 PM

Hi Sarah,

Yeah, we do have to look hard at ourselves, as we can often end up blaming everyone else exept ourselves for the mess we are in. We are each accountable to Christ for what we put into our discipleship, but those who may cause us to stumble, watch out!!! Neglect can do just that, it can cause one to stumble. What about a simple phone call to see if the person is ok? What about sending a short note saying how much they are missed? That would I am sure be readily accepted as loving.
Maybe it is a fear of being asked to do something? Maybe if the one in a mess is in financial troubles some worry they might have to put their hands in their pockets? Love of money is certainly a big problem in certain Ecclesias. The wealthy like to hang on to it, that is for sure!!!

That said, it is true that many are not attending because they are made to feel like they are not wanted, that is sadly MY experience (not only me, but many I have spoken with).

It is very rare I hear someone saying they do not go because they have lost interest in the truth. or that they now disagree with CD doctrines.


>>"Poor attenders" should also consider what messages they send to "good attenders" by seeming to not want to be with them.... Its hard when you want to be a proper family and someone just doesn't join in. Many "good attenders" have stronger relationships with their bre&sis simply by virtue of spending more time with them. This can, of course, make the "poor attenders" feel left out.... but if people want to be on the edges, is it even right to try and force them to join in?<<

Maybe those who attend should go out of their way to offer the poor attenders someting worthy to do for the Ecclesia? No doubt those who feel pushed aside would jump at that chance?

I agree that many good attenders are indeed doing a great job, getting involved, putting themselves out for others, these are not the ones we need worry about. No, it is the ones who are not ENCOURAGED to be there, these we MUST be concerned about and do something useful (not criticise) to encourage them. How could one feel 'forced' if one receives offers of encouragement?

I will tell you what is said to me (when anything is said at all). "Why don't you come to the meeting more often"? or "it is not good to stay away from the meeting".

What about saying, "hey we miss you, would love to see you, is there anything we can do to help?" That might be worth a shot, rather than a critical word.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#80 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:29 PM

OK, it might be destructive if it were the whole community, but what about an indevidual Ecclesia? Are you saying it should never be the case that an indevidual person withdraws from an errant Ecclesia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Certainly not. I would consider that perfectly correct, if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner.

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Ah well, what YOU might consider errant and what I might consider errant might not be given exactly the same importance, right?


That is precisely why I said 'if it was carried out with the correct motivation, in the correct manner'.

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Then we are in agreement.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#81 Dawn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 08:17 PM

I think it depends on the individual person (concerning broken marriages).

Some people are strong in themselves and in the Lord, and can cope with a broken marriage and pick up their lives again without it shaking their faith too much; and their love of God and the Truth remains in tact.

Others can be utterly crushed: it doesn't mean that they love God or the Truth any less perhaps - just that some people can't face it and so one way of dealing with it is shutting out the source of the pain.

Thankfully the Judge of all the earth will do right.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#82 Dawn

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 08:22 PM

I find Frank Abel's article sickening

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I think there is SOME truth in what he says - we may not like it, but it's best to face up to it that the reasons he gives do have at the very least a modicum of truth in them: even if we don't like it.

I agree however that it's not as black and white as it seems. Apostasy is very different to leaving a community because the treatment you receive there is hurtful and damaging: usually apostates tend to stay in a church or community - rather than leave it - and false brethren are sometimes hard to detect. Discernment is needed.

Edited by Dawn, 20 July 2005 - 08:23 PM.

"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#83 Tricia

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 10:27 PM

Hi Julian,

Thanks for responding! Yes, I agree, we all need to work on our relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ, and be more thoughtful, helpful and loving. I guess we shouldn't be surprised at other people's inadequacies, as we are human, and prone to sin. So when I think of it like that, I am more forgiving, although it doesn't lessen feelings of disappointment. I think we have higher expectations from our brethren, that as they are followers of Christ, we expect them to be like Christ. I know that I am woefully lacking in that area, and need to work on being more like Christ myself, and constantly evaluate what I need to be doing to help and encourage others. One thing about me is that I am introverted, so I really have to make an effort to approach people, as it does not come naturally to me. Maybe most of the people in my ecclesia are also introverted? I don't know. It seems like I am drawn to people that are opposite me, lively and energetic and talkative, whereas I am quiet and calm. I guess that kind of relationship is complementary, filling in where the other is lacking.

Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is that it is important to step out of comfort zones, which is hard to do of course.

You say that fellowship is so very important when our fellow brothers and sisters are needing it the most. So very true! How are we to know if they are suffering through a difficult time if they don't tell us or anyone else? I have stopped confiding in others, because I don't really want advice (unless I specificlly ask for it). I want someone to take time to write me a card with helpful Bible verses, or spend time with me doing something enjoyable, gaining a reprieve from my problems for a little while.

It's so nice to be able to talk about it on BTDF, because it makes a person think, and be more aware of these issues.





Hi Tricia..... that was a sad post, but one I truly relate to.

There are so many like you (and me) who feel they do not get the level of empathy required from their family.

It is a problem in our community (probably in others as well).

True fellowship has to be useful at those times when we need it most. It is not all about bums on seats, all sitting in neat rows, suits and ties, fancy hats etc. No, there has to be love, care, interest in others, appreciation for all gifts, real help in times of need.

Something to work on I guess.

Love in Jesus, Julian

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Edited by Tricia, 21 July 2005 - 12:17 AM.

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psalms 9:10

#84 Julian

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:39 PM

Hi Tricia.

>>It's so nice to be able to talk about it on BTDF, because it makes a person think, and be more aware of these issues. <<

Yes, it certainly is.

Love in Jesus, Julian

#85 andy 1

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 05:24 PM

Hi everyone.
my wife and were not brought up in the truth and We are not crowd people particularly.
We would not be into the over demonstrative happy clappy type gatherings.
I,ve always thought that sort of thing as shallow and insincere.
one thing that attracted me to christadelphia ( apart from there obvious understanding of the truth) was there thoughtful reserve .It seemed to set them apart from the other churches around us .
There is one thing we have noticed though,and that is there is an extreme opposite of the demonstrative happy clappy type. My wife and I have thought how similar they were to the characters from the film- "the remains of the day ". I think our problems are similar to the ideas portrayed in that film and they are, that in trying to do everything in the proper manner ,we can become to uptight.
Before I became a christadelphian I had only worn suits at weddings and funerals and shook hands with people I dont know.

#86 Dawn

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 08:43 PM

Hi everyone.
my wife and were not brought up in the truth and We are not crowd people particularly.
We would not be into the over demonstrative happy clappy type gatherings.
I,ve always thought that sort of thing as shallow and insincere.
one thing that attracted me to christadelphia ( apart from there obvious understanding of the truth) was there thoughtful reserve .It seemed to set them apart from the other churches around us .
There is one thing we have noticed though,and that is there is an extreme opposite of the demonstrative happy clappy type. My wife and I have thought how similar they were to the characters from the film- "the remains of the day ". I think our problems are similar to the ideas portrayed in that film and they are, that in trying to do everything in the proper manner ,we can become to uptight.
Before I became a christadelphian I had only worn suits at weddings and funerals and shook hands with people I dont know.


I think it can depend on certain Ecclesias: I believe they can vary somewhat, with some being mroe contemporary in their style of worship. As you broaden your experience in Christadelphia and visit other ecclesias when you're on holiday or whatever, maybe you will some some diversity.

I understand what you mean that some meetings can be quite stiff: but I think that is more a generational thing - especially if the majority of the ecclesia are over 50 or 60 years of age. But it's better that everything be done "decently and in order" and I agree the happy clappy type church meetings (some of which I've been to) aren't very edifying (although sometimes I do get a glimpse of real joy and how good it is to express to God in worship, but this needs sensitivity towards others). Sometimes when you're feeling really low and people around you are bopping up and down clapping it can make you feel worse, but then i can understand if they feel joyful before the Lord they just want to express it - but I think there must be some other way to express joy which is not so intrusive on other people's emotions.

Another thing which I find irritating about the happy clappy type style of worship is when you see someone in the congregation who has hurt your feelings or hurt you spiritually up the front there clapping away or with their arms up in praise to God, singing their hearts out: it's a very strange feeling to try and overcome because the person who has hurt you and is expressing themselve so vigorously in worship to their God seems totally unaware of the hurt you have inside since they are up there bopping with joy before the Lord. True worship surely is lateral and relates to our brethren and sisters and their feelings and emotions? And clapping away happily in worship only rubs salt into wounds it seems to me. But maybe its me. And i suppose that can happen in "stiff" meetings as well maybe. Just that it's more pronounced in happy clappy type meetings. It's almost a way of rubbing spiritual salt in by them saying "look I'm so happy, I'm so joyful before the Lord, I have no conscience about the pain I caused you".
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#87 Deborah

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:28 PM

I think our problems are similar to the ideas portrayed in that film and they are, that in trying to do everything in the proper manner ,we can become to uptight.
Before I became a christadelphian I had only worn suits at weddings and funerals and shook hands with people I dont know.


I was brought up in such an ecclesia. I didn't like it, but it suits the rest of my family. I prefer a more loving and warm environment (I think Christ would prefer that too). As Dawn mentioned, sometimes you just have to travel around Christadelphia to get a broader perspective of the CA community, otherwise, you just assume that every CA is stiff (which isn't the case). :witchhunt:
"Though we can't always see it at the time, if we look upon events with some perspective, we see things always happen for our best interests. We are always being guided in a way better than we know ourselves.".

"The Bible is like a prisoner of war -- if you torture it long enough you can get it to say anything"




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