Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

When John saw the Lord God Almighty and His Lamb and?

Revelation 21:22 Read:

  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:55 PM

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.



Lione D' ea: Where is the Holy Spirit of God?

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#2 Mark Taunton

Mark Taunton

    Rho

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,773 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:15 PM

You are asking this question to the wrong people! We would ask the same question of people who believe in the trinity. Christadelphians do not believe in the trinity. We do not believe the holy spirit of God is a person of the Godhead. The holy spirit is simply what you say, the spirit of God. It is not a separate "person" in any way.
  • Matt Smith likes this

#3 Matt Smith

Matt Smith

    Upsilon

  • Forum Manager
  • 4,619 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:49 PM

God's spirit is His power. He used His spirit to create life (Psalm 104:30; Gen. 1:1 cp Jer. 10:12; 51:15), and it is His spirit that maintains life (Job 34:14-15). The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power that is set apart (the meaning of "holy") and has been granted to certain people at certain times (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 35:30-31; Numbers 11; Deuteronomy 34:9). Jesus was given this power without measure (John 3:34) to display he was from God and to enable him to proclaim the kingdom of God. This is the same reason the disciples were given the Holy Spirit during Jesus' ministry (Luke 9:1-2) and also after (Acts 5:14-16). The gifts of the Holy Spirit would have a limited range (Acts 2:39) and a limited life time (1 Corinthians 13:8-10). The Holy Spirit was given to believers by one method only (with one notable exception) and that was by the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:12-19; Acts 19:6). The gifts will be poured out once again at Jesus' return on the Jewish people (Hebrews 6:4-5; Joel 2).
Matt Smith
Arizona Christadelphians

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

#4 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 18 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

You are asking this question to the wrong people! We would ask the same question of people who believe in the trinity. Christadelphians do not believe in the trinity. We do not believe the holy spirit of God is a person of the Godhead. The holy spirit is simply what you say, the spirit of God. It is not a separate "person" in any way.




Lione D' ea: I do not believe also in doctrine of Trinity, but doesn't mean I do not believe in Father Son and Holy Spirit because in the Bible there are three(3) mighty person which I acknowledge Matthew 28:19 Read:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lione D' ea: The passage mention three(3) person: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son nor Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son, but this 3 mighty person is part of the Godhead.

Question: Where is the Holy Spirit?

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#5 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 18 June 2012 - 03:08 PM

God's spirit is His power. He used His spirit to create life (Psalm 104:30; Gen. 1:1 cp Jer. 10:12; 51:15), and it is His spirit that maintains life (Job 34:14-15). The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power that is set apart (the meaning of "holy") and has been granted to certain people at certain times (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 35:30-31; Numbers 11; Deuteronomy 34:9). Jesus was given this power without measure (John 3:34) to display he was from God and to enable him to proclaim the kingdom of God. This is the same reason the disciples were given the Holy Spirit during Jesus' ministry (Luke 9:1-2) and also after (Acts 5:14-16). The gifts of the Holy Spirit would have a limited range (Acts 2:39) and a limited life time (1 Corinthians 13:8-10). The Holy Spirit was given to believers by one method only (with one notable exception) and that was by the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:12-19; Acts 19:6). The gifts will be poured out once again at Jesus' return on the Jewish people (Hebrews 6:4-5; Joel 2).



Lione D' ea: The if you believe Holy Spirit is existed then where is the Holy Spirit when Apostle John saw the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?

end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#6 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:16 PM

We don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#7 Matt Smith

Matt Smith

    Upsilon

  • Forum Manager
  • 4,619 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:48 AM


God's spirit is His power. He used His spirit to create life (Psalm 104:30; Gen. 1:1 cp Jer. 10:12; 51:15), and it is His spirit that maintains life (Job 34:14-15). The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power that is set apart (the meaning of "holy") and has been granted to certain people at certain times (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 35:30-31; Numbers 11; Deuteronomy 34:9). Jesus was given this power without measure (John 3:34) to display he was from God and to enable him to proclaim the kingdom of God. This is the same reason the disciples were given the Holy Spirit during Jesus' ministry (Luke 9:1-2) and also after (Acts 5:14-16). The gifts of the Holy Spirit would have a limited range (Acts 2:39) and a limited life time (1 Corinthians 13:8-10). The Holy Spirit was given to believers by one method only (with one notable exception) and that was by the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:12-19; Acts 19:6). The gifts will be poured out once again at Jesus' return on the Jewish people (Hebrews 6:4-5; Joel 2).



Lione D' ea: The if you believe Holy Spirit is existed then where is the Holy Spirit when Apostle John saw the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?

end.


Read my answer above. The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power set aside for a specific purpose. It is not separate from God.
Matt Smith
Arizona Christadelphians

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

#8 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:57 AM



God's spirit is His power. He used His spirit to create life (Psalm 104:30; Gen. 1:1 cp Jer. 10:12; 51:15), and it is His spirit that maintains life (Job 34:14-15). The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power that is set apart (the meaning of "holy") and has been granted to certain people at certain times (2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 35:30-31; Numbers 11; Deuteronomy 34:9). Jesus was given this power without measure (John 3:34) to display he was from God and to enable him to proclaim the kingdom of God. This is the same reason the disciples were given the Holy Spirit during Jesus' ministry (Luke 9:1-2) and also after (Acts 5:14-16). The gifts of the Holy Spirit would have a limited range (Acts 2:39) and a limited life time (1 Corinthians 13:8-10). The Holy Spirit was given to believers by one method only (with one notable exception) and that was by the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:12-19; Acts 19:6). The gifts will be poured out once again at Jesus' return on the Jewish people (Hebrews 6:4-5; Joel 2).



Lione D' ea: The if you believe Holy Spirit is existed then where is the Holy Spirit when Apostle John saw the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?

end.


Read my answer above. The Holy Spirit is a portion of God's power set aside for a specific purpose. It is not separate from God.



Lione D' ea: Psalms 104:30 Read:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: God have capacity to separate His Holy Spirit to send but for man is impossible, and Holy Spirit have own state...so how can you say it is not separate from God?

end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#9 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:01 AM

We don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person.



Lione D' ea: Person is not exclusive for bone and flesh because there is person living in man which is not bone and flesh.


end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#10 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:02 AM

Question: where is the Holy Spirit?

end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#11 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 03:37 PM

Why do you keep putting "end." at the end of your posts? We already know it's the end of your post because your post ends.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#12 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 19 June 2012 - 03:42 PM

It's probably a tag he needs to put into the translation software.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#13 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:19 AM

Why do you keep putting "end." at the end of your posts? We already know it's the end of your post because your post ends.



Lione D' ea: Okie...



Philippians 3:2 "Beware of dogs,"

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#14 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:20 AM

When John saw the Lord God Almighty and His Lamb and?


Question: Where is the Holy Spirit of God?



Philippians 3:2 "Beware of dogs,"

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#15 Mark Taunton

Mark Taunton

    Rho

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,773 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:57 AM

God's holy spirit is not a separate thing or person; just as a man's spirit is not a separate thing with a separate existence, but is part of him, something within him. 1 Cor 2:11 makes this clear.

But to answer your question from scripture: God's spirit is found everywhere, because he is at work everywhere (Psalm 139:7-10).

Edited by Mark Taunton, 21 June 2012 - 12:04 PM.


#16 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:57 PM

What have you got against dogs?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#17 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 02:45 PM

What have you got against dogs?



Lione D' ea: Not the same because it is not flesh and blood as the world how to fight. Ephesians 6:12 stated

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Lione D' ea: end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#18 nsr

nsr

    Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class

  • Forum Manager
  • 6,370 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

What does that have to do with dogs?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#19 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:17 PM

God's holy spirit is not a separate thing or person; just as a man's spirit is not a separate thing with a separate existence, but is part of him, something within him. 1 Cor 2:11 makes this clear.

But to answer your question from scripture: God's spirit is found everywhere, because he is at work everywhere (Psalm 139:7-10).



Lione D' ea: Wrong Psalms 104:30 Read:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: God have capacity to separate His Spirit from Him therefore Holy Spirit is existed and have self stated if it departed from God 4:30 of Ephesians Read:


And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Lione D' ea: Holy Spirit have own state when separate to God if God sendeth, and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere which this statement are not Biblical as your bases in Psalms 139:7-10 Let us read:

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Lione D' ea: The passages did not tell that God Himself are work everywhere, the person who said here in this passages is implying he cannot escape from God where ever he may god because God see Him, Proverbs 15:3 Read:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.


Lione D' ea: The Eye's of God is in every place, He cannot escape from God. Ecclesiastes 5:2 Read:


Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

​Lione D' ea: God is in Heaven, He can separate His Spirit from Him and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere.

Edited by LioneDea, 21 June 2012 - 03:18 PM.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#20 Mark Taunton

Mark Taunton

    Rho

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,773 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:17 AM


God's holy spirit is not a separate thing or person; just as a man's spirit is not a separate thing with a separate existence, but is part of him, something within him. 1 Cor 2:11 makes this clear.

But to answer your question from scripture: God's spirit is found everywhere, because he is at work everywhere (Psalm 139:7-10).



Lione D' ea: Wrong Psalms 104:30 Read:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: God have capacity to separate His Spirit from Him therefore Holy Spirit is existed and have self stated if it departed from God


No, that is not true. God sends forth his spirit, and to us, the idea of "sending" suggests separation, but that does not mean it is actually separate from God. We can see this from how the same word "sending" is used in other places. I will use just one example (but there are others also):

Genesis 8:9 ... then he (Noah) put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

In the Hebrew, the same word is used here about Noah's hand as is used about God's spirit in Psalm 104:30: Noah "sent forth" his hand to take the dove when it returned to the ark. But Noah's hand was definitely not separate from him - if it were, how could he control it, to take the dove? In the same way, if God's spirit were separate from him, he would have no control over it, and it would be useless to him.

4:30 of Ephesians Read:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Why does that mean the holy spirit is separate from God? Your idea does not make sense. Can we grieve the holy spirit of God, but not grieve God? Or can we grieve God but not grieve his holy spirit? Of course not! If we grieve God's holy spirit then we are grieving God, because it is not a separate spirit, someone or something else, it is his spirit, which is part of him.

Lione D' ea: Holy Spirit have own state when separate to God if God sendeth, and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere which this statement are not Biblical as your bases in Psalms 139:7-10 Let us read:

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Lione D' ea: The passages did not tell that God Himself are work everywhere, the person who said here in this passages is implying he cannot escape from God where ever he may god because God see Him,



You're completely missing the point. David says that:
  • God's spirit is everywhere ("whither shall I go from thy spirit?")
  • God's presence is everywhere ("whither shall I flee from thy presence?")
  • God himself is everywhere ("... thou art there ... thou art there").
  • God's hand is everywhere ("there shall thy hand lead me")
  • God's right hand is everywhere ("thy right hand shall hold me")
The point is that God is everywhere because his spirit / presence / hand / right hand are everywhere. Those things are all parts of God himself. Can God's hand be somewhere and he himself not be there? Just as with Noah, God is where is hand is, they are not separate things. God is where his spirit is, and where his presence is. You simply cannot separate any of these things from God!

In fact this principle is emphasised in this passage, by the symmetry: David starts by mentioning God's "spirit" and "presence", and ends by mentioning God's "hand" and "right hand". But right in the middle of it, he mentions God himself - "thou", twice. This shows powerfully that God's spirit / God's presence / God's hand / God's right hand are all ways of speaking about God himself at work, not about things that are separate from God.

Proverbs 15:3 Read:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.


Lione D' ea: The Eye's of God is in every place, He cannot escape from God.


This is exactly the same issue here. By your reading, God's eyes can be separate from him. God's eyes might be in a place but God not be there. But if they were, how could God see? Your idea simply does not make sense.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Read:

Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

​Lione D' ea: God is in Heaven, He can separate His Spirit from Him and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere.


No, this is quite wrong and your claim makes no sense. Firstly, Psalm 139:7-10 show that God's spirit, his presence and his hand are all elements of God, not separate things, as I pointed out above. And now this passage, Ecclesiastes 5:2 that you have quoted, proves the same thing directly.

How can God hear in heaven what a man is saying upon earth? If God is in heaven and his spirit is separate from him, on the earth, listening to what we say, God himself in heaven, separated from his spirit, still cannot hear; so there is no need to worry what we say! On the other hand, if God is everywhere by his spirit, then he hears everything because his spirit is everywhere, not separate from him but actually how he works within his creation. The point of this passage is that God does hear what men say, by his spirit which is everwhere, so we should be careful about our words.

And lastly, from Genesis 1:2 we see that God's spirit is not a different thing from him, separate from God, rather it is the means by which he speaks and acts. Just as your hand has certain abilities (for example it can pick up and hold things, such as a pen, so you can write), it does the work you want it to, but it is not separate from you. So it is with God's spirit. It was present right from the beginning of creation, to accomplish his will. What God said and did in creation, he said and did by his spirit. If his spirit were a separate thing, this would not be true, just as if your hand were separated from you, it could do nothing, and you could not do anything by it. And God himself is still present in all parts of his creation, by his spirit. It is the means of his working in the world. By it he hears and knows everything, and is present for the sake of his people.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 22 June 2012 - 07:41 AM.


#21 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:18 PM



God's holy spirit is not a separate thing or person; just as a man's spirit is not a separate thing with a separate existence, but is part of him, something within him. 1 Cor 2:11 makes this clear.

But to answer your question from scripture: God's spirit is found everywhere, because he is at work everywhere (Psalm 139:7-10).



Lione D' ea: Wrong Psalms 104:30 Read:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: God have capacity to separate His Spirit from Him therefore Holy Spirit is existed and have self stated if it departed from God


No, that is not true. God sends forth his spirit, and to us, the idea of "sending" suggests separation, but that does not mean it is actually separate from God. We can see this from how the same word "sending" is used in other places. I will use just one example (but there are others also):

Genesis 8:9 ... then he (Noah) put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

In the Hebrew, the same word is used here about Noah's hand as is used about God's spirit in Psalm 104:30: Noah "sent forth" his hand to take the dove when it returned to the ark. But Noah's hand was definitely not separate from him - if it were, how could he control it, to take the dove? In the same way, if God's spirit were separate from him, he would have no control over it, and it would be useless to him.

4:30 of Ephesians Read:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Why does that mean the holy spirit is separate from God? Your idea does not make sense. Can we grieve the holy spirit of God, but not grieve God? Or can we grieve God but not grieve his holy spirit? Of course not! If we grieve God's holy spirit then we are grieving God, because it is not a separate spirit, someone or something else, it is his spirit, which is part of him.

Lione D' ea: Holy Spirit have own state when separate to God if God sendeth, and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere which this statement are not Biblical as your bases in Psalms 139:7-10 Let us read:

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Lione D' ea: The passages did not tell that God Himself are work everywhere, the person who said here in this passages is implying he cannot escape from God where ever he may god because God see Him,



You're completely missing the point. David says that:
  • God's spirit is everywhere ("whither shall I go from thy spirit?")
  • God's presence is everywhere ("whither shall I flee from thy presence?")
  • God himself is everywhere ("... thou art there ... thou art there").
  • God's hand is everywhere ("there shall thy hand lead me")
  • God's right hand is everywhere ("thy right hand shall hold me")
The point is that God is everywhere because his spirit / presence / hand / right hand are everywhere. Those things are all parts of God himself. Can God's hand be somewhere and he himself not be there? Just as with Noah, God is where is hand is, they are not separate things. God is where his spirit is, and where his presence is. You simply cannot separate any of these things from God!

In fact this principle is emphasised in this passage, by the symmetry: David starts by mentioning God's "spirit" and "presence", and ends by mentioning God's "hand" and "right hand". But right in the middle of it, he mentions God himself - "thou", twice. This shows powerfully that God's spirit / God's presence / God's hand / God's right hand are all ways of speaking about God himself at work, not about things that are separate from God.

Proverbs 15:3 Read:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.


Lione D' ea: The Eye's of God is in every place, He cannot escape from God.


This is exactly the same issue here. By your reading, God's eyes can be separate from him. God's eyes might be in a place but God not be there. But if they were, how could God see? Your idea simply does not make sense.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Read:

Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

​Lione D' ea: God is in Heaven, He can separate His Spirit from Him and it is not true that God Himself will go there for work in everywhere.


No, this is quite wrong and your claim makes no sense. Firstly, Psalm 139:7-10 show that God's spirit, his presence and his hand are all elements of God, not separate things, as I pointed out above. And now this passage, Ecclesiastes 5:2 that you have quoted, proves the same thing directly.

How can God hear in heaven what a man is saying upon earth? If God is in heaven and his spirit is separate from him, on the earth, listening to what we say, God himself in heaven, separated from his spirit, still cannot hear; so there is no need to worry what we say! On the other hand, if God is everywhere by his spirit, then he hears everything because his spirit is everywhere, not separate from him but actually how he works within his creation. The point of this passage is that God does hear what men say, by his spirit which is everwhere, so we should be careful about our words.

And lastly, from Genesis 1:2 we see that God's spirit is not a different thing from him, separate from God, rather it is the means by which he speaks and acts. Just as your hand has certain abilities (for example it can pick up and hold things, such as a pen, so you can write), it does the work you want it to, but it is not separate from you. So it is with God's spirit. It was present right from the beginning of creation, to accomplish his will. What God said and did in creation, he said and did by his spirit. If his spirit were a separate thing, this would not be true, just as if your hand were separated from you, it could do nothing, and you could not do anything by it. And God himself is still present in all parts of his creation, by his spirit. It is the means of his working in the world. By it he hears and knows everything, and is present for the sake of his people.



Lione D' ea: How come it is not true that you read the scriptures stated there:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: Let us read in Hebrew Bible Dictionary the word sendest:

Hebrew shalach; Lexicon: te·shal·lach: to send
Original Word: שָׁלַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shalach
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-lakh')
Short Definition: sent


7971cast away, forsake
A primitive root; to send away, for, or out (in a great variety of applications) -- X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out).


Lione D' ea: Biblical speaking...God have capacity to depart(separate) His Spirit from Him. Let us read the cited of how you interpret the word separate, in Genesis 8:9 Read:


But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.


Lione D' ea: The word put forth of the passage is equivalent asstretched but the passage did not specifying in God's Spirit. You lost yourself brother to interpret how to sendest forth the spirit of God another testifying in Proverbs 1:23 Read:

Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Lione D' ea: Let us read in Hebrew: Pour

ab·bi·'ah; naba: to flow, spring, bubble up
Original Word:נָבַע ; אַבִּיעָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration:
naba
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-bah')
Short Definition: utter


5041: Pour out, flowing, send forth, utter abundantly
A primitive root; to gush forth; figuratively, to utter (good or bad words); specifically, to emit (a foul odor) -- belch out, flowing, pour out, send forth, utter (abundantly).


Lione D' ea: The God can send forth His Spirit to His servant therefore God have power to separate His Spirit from Him. The same He do when he create all things in universe Genesis 1:1-5 Read:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Lione D' ea: God send forth His Spirit to create all things in universe.

2.) The Holy Spirit Have own state when it depart from God brother. God does not go anywhere only His Spirit which depart from him can go where ever that God send it. 4:30 of Ephesians Read:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Lione D' ea: Holy Spirit have own state, Matthew 12:31-32 Read:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Lione D' ea: If anyone blasphemy or against in the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven but against in Holy Spirit even a single word, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

3 and 4.) David did not say in that passage that God is everywhere. only the eye's of the Lord can see everywhere this is Biblical Proverbs 15:3 Read:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Lione D' ea: No man can escape in the eyes of the Lord according in the passage, and He can send His Spirit to watch if you still do good or evil.


5.) He did not exactly go there to create, God' s power is passing through in Holy Spirit to create all things in cosmos. Genesis 1:1-5 Read:


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Lione D' ea: The power of God is passing through in Holy Spirit. Therefore He is not the Holy Spirit because when He create all things there, He was in His (*****) so God have capacity to depart His Spirit from Him but He is not the Spirit.


end.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)


#22 Mark Taunton

Mark Taunton

    Rho

  • Christadelphian Armoury
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,773 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:07 PM

Lione, there is a problem. You keep making the same claim, but you have not proved it from the Bible. The problem is that you cannot find a BIble passage that says that God and his spirit are separate things. If there were such a passage, you should quote it, but you have not yet done so. If the Bible really teaches that God's spirit is a separate thing from him, independent of him, then please show the passage that says that. To prove this point, it needs to mention both "God", and also God's spirit (or the holy spirit) and also use the word "separate", concerning God on one side and his spirit on the other. If you show me that Bible passage, I will believe what it says.

Lione D' ea: Biblical speaking...God have capacity to depart(separate) His Spirit from Him. Let us read the cited of how you interpret the word separate, in Genesis 8:9 Read:

But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Lione D' ea: The word put forth of the passage is equivalent asstretched but the passage did not specifying in God's Spirit. You lost yourself brother to interpret how to sendest forth the spirit of God another testifying in Proverbs 1:23 Read:


You have misunderstood me. It does not matter that Genesis 8:9 does not mention God's spirit. I used it because it does mention the idea of "sending forth" which also comes in Psalm 104:30, about God and his spirit. I used Genesis 8:9 because it shows us something about "sending forth", and what is implied (or not implied) by that word.

You think that because God "sent forth" his spirit (Psalm 104:30) that God's spirit must be something separate from God, so that could "send it forth". But that is not correct. The idea of "sending forth" something does not mean that the thing that is sent must be separate from the person who sent it. I proved that from Genesis 8:9 and the case of Noah's hand that he "sent forth". Noah did not send forth his hand as something separate from him; that was quite impossible! If Noah's hand was separate from him, how could Noah take hold of the dove? It wouldn't be Noah holding the dove and it taking it to him, it would just be Noah's hand that did it. But how can a hand do anything, if it has been separated from the person who owns it?

My point is that the same thing is true of God's spirit, which he "sends forth" to accomplish his will; for example, to create living things (as Psalm 104:30 says). It is in fact necessary that God's spirit is not separate from him. If it was working separately, we could not say that God had created them (though clearly Genesis says he did); we could only say that God's spirit had created them, and that would be a different thing. But the Bible says clearly that God did create all living things. So God's spirit is not a separate thing; it is simply the means he has used (and still uses) to work out his will, both in creation and in many other ways.

For my part, I have shown you passages that describe God and God's spirit being directly connected. For example, Psalm 139:7-10 shows that God is everywhere and that his spirit is everywhere, so they are not separate - God and his spirit are in the same place, not different places. Now you quote Gen 1:1-5, as if that shows God's spirit as separate from God himself. But it doesn't - the word "separate" does not come there, so it certainly is not used there about God and his spirit. Instead, God's spirit is mentioned immediately before mention of what God said and did. This does not separate God's spirit from God, instead it connects them, just as Psalm 139 connects God and his spirit together.

Here are some more verses that show God as working by his spirit, that it is not separate from him, but it is a way of speaking about how he does the things he does:

Nehemiah 9:30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear


Here the Levites of Israel are speaking to God. They say that God testified against his people. and that he testified against them "by his spirit". If God and his spirit were separate things, then either God testified and his spirit did not, or his spirit testified and God did not, but that is not what they say. They say God testified, that he did it by his spirit. It's not that God's spirit is a separate thing that testifies by itself - it says clearly that God is the one who testified.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.


Job is speaking here, about God's creation (this links directly back to Genesis 1). He says that God "by his spirit" garnished the heavens. He doesn't say that God sent his spirit and his spirit garnished the heavens by itself, separately from him. He says clearly that God did it, by his spirit. God's spirit is part of him, a feature of him. In just the same way, God's hand that formed the serpent (in the second part of Job's sentence here) is not a separate thing from God, it is part of him. This is just like Noah's hand was part of him, not a separate thing, or your hand is part of you and cannot work on its own, separate from you.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Here Paul says that God is the one who has revealed things to the believers, and that he has done this "by his spirit". He doesn't say "the spirit as a separate thing from God" has revealed them. He says "God has revealed them ... by his spirit". This is exactly the same principle as in the other examples I have shown. Again, as in those earlier examples, God's spirit is not separate from God, or able to operate independently of God. It just is a way of speaking about God himself, describing how he works out his will in the world.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 22 June 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#23 LioneDea

LioneDea

    Lambda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:57 PM

Lione, there is a problem. You keep making the same claim, but you have not proved it from the Bible. The problem is that you cannot find a BIble passage that says that God and his spirit are separate things. If there were such a passage, you should quote it, but you have not yet done so. If the Bible really teaches that God's spirit is a separate thing from him, independent of him, then please show the passage that says that. To prove this point, it needs to mention both "God", and also God's spirit (or the holy spirit) and also use the word "separate", concerning God on one side and his spirit on the other. If you show me that Bible passage, I will believe what it says.


Lione D' ea: Biblical speaking...God have capacity to depart(separate) His Spirit from Him. Let us read the cited of how you interpret the word separate, in Genesis 8:9 Read:

But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Lione D' ea: The word put forth of the passage is equivalent asstretched but the passage did not specifying in God's Spirit. You lost yourself brother to interpret how to sendest forth the spirit of God another testifying in Proverbs 1:23 Read:


You have misunderstood me. It does not matter that Genesis 8:9 does not mention God's spirit. I used it because it does mention the idea of "sending forth" which also comes in Psalm 104:30, about God and his spirit. I used Genesis 8:9 because it shows us something about "sending forth", and what is implied (or not implied) by that word.

You think that because God "sent forth" his spirit (Psalm 104:30) that God's spirit must be something separate from God, so that could "send it forth". But that is not correct. The idea of "sending forth" something does not mean that the thing that is sent must be separate from the person who sent it. I proved that from Genesis 8:9 and the case of Noah's hand that he "sent forth". Noah did not send forth his hand as something separate from him; that was quite impossible! If Noah's hand was separate from him, how could Noah take hold of the dove? It wouldn't be Noah holding the dove and it taking it to him, it would just be Noah's hand that did it. But how can a hand do anything, if it has been separated from the person who owns it?

My point is that the same thing is true of God's spirit, which he "sends forth" to accomplish his will; for example, to create living things (as Psalm 104:30 says). It is in fact necessary that God's spirit is not separate from him. If it was working separately, we could not say that God had created them (though clearly Genesis says he did); we could only say that God's spirit had created them, and that would be a different thing. But the Bible says clearly that God did create all living things. So God's spirit is not a separate thing; it is simply the means he has used (and still uses) to work out his will, both in creation and in many other ways.

For my part, I have shown you passages that describe God and God's spirit being directly connected. For example, Psalm 139:7-10 shows that God is everywhere and that his spirit is everywhere, so they are not separate - God and his spirit are in the same place, not different places. Now you quote Gen 1:1-5, as if that shows God's spirit as separate from God himself. But it doesn't - the word "separate" does not come there, so it certainly is not used there about God and his spirit. Instead, God's spirit is mentioned immediately before mention of what God said and did. This does not separate God's spirit from God, instead it connects them, just as Psalm 139 connects God and his spirit together.

Here are some more verses that show God as working by his spirit, that it is not separate from him, but it is a way of speaking about how he does the things he does:

Nehemiah 9:30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear


Here the Levites of Israel are speaking to God. They say that God testified against his people. and that he testified against them "by his spirit". If God and his spirit were separate things, then either God testified and his spirit did not, or his spirit testified and God did not, but that is not what they say. They say God testified, that he did it by his spirit. It's not that God's spirit is a separate thing that testifies by itself - it says clearly that God is the one who testified.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.


Job is speaking here, about God's creation (this links directly back to Genesis 1). He says that God "by his spirit" garnished the heavens. He doesn't say that God sent his spirit and his spirit garnished the heavens by itself, separately from him. He says clearly that God did it, by his spirit. God's spirit is part of him, a feature of him. In just the same way, God's hand that formed the serpent (in the second part of Job's sentence here) is not a separate thing from God, it is part of him. This is just like Noah's hand was part of him, not a separate thing, or your hand is part of you and cannot work on its own, separate from you.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Here Paul says that God is the one who has revealed things to the believers, and that he has done this "by his spirit". He doesn't say "the spirit as a separate thing from God" has revealed them. He says "God has revealed them ... by his spirit". This is exactly the same principle as in the other examples I have shown. Again, as in those earlier examples, God's spirit is not separate from God, or able to operate independently of God. It just is a way of speaking about God himself, describing how he works out his will in the world.



Lione D' ea: I never said: God and Spirit are separate things. I said at the first God has capacity to separate His Spirit from Him, and the Spirit which departed from God have own state if God send fort. Don't add what I states...this things which I said is not came in my own opinion but comes from the scriptures itself which I read, to prove that Spirit which departed in God has own state I give you may one passage, In John 16:13 Read:

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Lione D' ea: Holy Spirit had own state according in the passage above and Jesus Christ can not be mistake in His grammar. If the Father is the Spirit which cannot separate in God as the thechristadelphians claim then Christ would say: "He shall speak of Himself..." but that is not it happened. Therefore God has capacity to separate His Spirit from Him and the Spirit which departed from Him have own state...and if you dare me to show my evidence to proof, first I must ask you If I prove in the Bible the Holy Spirit have own state do you accept you lose?

2.) You are wrong there because you cannot attach the phrase you refers in Genesis 8:9 into Psalms 104:30 because in Psalms 104:30 is specify in God Spirit, while in Genesis 8:9 is talking how Noah stretch his arm you are mislead there. The Bible interpret itself from 7971 that the Spirit of God can departed from God, Read:

7971cast away, forsake
A primitive root; to send away, for, or out (in a great variety of applications) -- X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out).

Lione D' ea: Therefore God has capacity to depart His Spirit.

3.) There are three(3) mighty persons who existed in ancient times and that is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, God have capacity to depart or separate His Spirit from Him, Proverbs 1:23 Read:

Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Lione D' ea: Spirit are came from God, but God is not the Spirit when it departed from Him that is the Bible said not me.

4.) Let us read If God did not send His Spirit when He create all things again in Psalms 104:30 Read meticulously:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Lione D' ea: God sendest forth His Spirit to create all things according in the passage above, proving that God has capacity to depart His Spirit from Him and that Spirit which depart from Him created our universe, Genesis 1:1-5 Read:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Lione D' ea: Through Spirit which God sendest, God create the universe and all things, and He is not the Spirit which He send and depart from Him because when God create the universe through His Spirit, He was in His *****.


5.) Wrong first and foremost the passage did not said: God is the one, Let us read the cited:

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Lione D' ea: There are two(2) person which passage mention...the God, and the Spirit whom searcheth all things of God because he is existed, Genesis 1:1-5 Read:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Lione D' ea: The Spirit of God is exist there and is is not true that there is one God, in verse 26 Read:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Lione D' ea: Therefore God is not alone itself because He was with His Son together in their *****


end.

Edited by LioneDea, 26 June 2012 - 02:03 PM.

Disclaimer: We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. (Luke 17:10)





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users