108 replies to this topic

[Chrlsp]

How did you come to the conclusion that 1 Peter 5 appears it's talking about the Roman oppressor?

[Richie]

The context in which Peter was writing in which they were suffering and the fact that the Christians during that time were thrown to the lions.

[Chrlsp]

Richie, on 14 July 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

The context in which Peter was writing in which they were suffering and the fact that the Christians during that time were thrown to the lions.

Would you point me to references in the context that mention Roman oppressors......and that Christians were thrown to the lions?

[Richie]

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia....he_Roman_Empire

[Chrlsp]

I've copied a passage from the article. Is this a reference to what you are saying?

"Forms of execution used by the Romans included burning in the tunica molesta,[37] systematic murder, crucifixion, and the feeding of Christians to dogs and other wild beasts. Tacitus' Annals XV.44 record: "...a vast multitude, were convicted, not so much of the crime of incendiarism as of hatred of the human race. And in their deaths they were made the subjects of sport; for they were wrapped in the hides of wild beasts and torn to pieces by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set on fire, and when day declined, were burned to serve for nocturnal lights."

Edited by Chrlsp, 14 July 2011 - 09:00 PM.

[Chrlsp]

The Christians who saw Christ crucified could point to thier Scriptures, specifically Psalm 22, where those who nailed Christ to the cross are called dogs....and if the Jews and their God referred to the disbelivers as dogs and wolves dressed in sheep clothing it would not be surprizing that the Christians would be dressed in animal skins (probably sheep skins)and fed to the dogs (and/or wolves).

Edited by Chrlsp, 15 July 2011 - 01:14 AM.

[nsr]

Except it was the Romans who did it, not the Jews, so there's no connection whatsoever.

Also, the idea of "wolves in sheep's clothing" comes from the New Testament, not the Old.

[Curt]

Chrlsp, on 14 July 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

Richie, on 14 July 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

The context in which Peter was writing in which they were suffering and the fact that the Christians during that time were thrown to the lions.

Would you point me to references in the context that mention Roman oppressors......and that Christians were thrown to the lions?

Here are some of the verses in 1 Peter that point to the Roman persecution. Every chapter in 1 Peter has at least one reference to "suffering". 1:11,2:21,3:14,17,4:1,13,19,5:1,10.
Christians were being burned nightly in Nero's gardens. 1:7 "The trial of your faith ... though it be tried with fire". 4:12"beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened unto you: but rejoice inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings.
5:8 "Your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour." Prov 19:12 "The kings wrath is as the roaring of a lion". And perhaps a tie in with Rev 2:10 "The devil shall cast some of you into prison". Peters reference to Babylon (5:13) may also possibly be a reference to Rome. Rev 17:5-9 These verses call this city on seven mountains Babylon. Rome was built on seven hills.

[Chrlsp]

To think that the disbelieving Jews were not responsible and heavily involved in the persecution and death of Christians is just plain ignorance of the Scriptures.

[nsr]

Chrlsp, on 15 July 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

To think that the disbelieving Jews were not responsible and heavily involved in the persecution and death of Christians is just plain ignorance of the Scriptures.

Well, nobody has suggested that there was no persecution of Christians by Jews in the early church. But it would be equally foolish to suggest that there was no persecution of Christians by non-Jews either.

[Chrlsp]

The thing is, I never suggested that the Romans or non-Jews (Gentiles) did not pursecute Christians. Lets not be blind to the fact that most Jews are anti-Christ and most Gentiles are not.

[nsr]

Chrlsp, on 15 July 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

The thing is, I never suggested that the Romans or non-Jews (Gentiles) did not pursecute Christians. Lets not be blind to the fact that most Jews are anti-Christ and most Gentiles are not.

So what was your point, if you don't mind my asking?

Why do you think most Jews are anti-Christ and most Gentiles are not? Do you mean "antichrist" as it is defined in 1 and 2 John, or do you mean it simply as "against Christ"?

I wouldn't make the distinction between Jew and Gentile; I'd simply say most human beings are against Christ.

[Chrlsp]

I think most Jews are anti-Christ because they are. They oppose Jesus Christ...to them, if Jesus ever even existed he means nothing...if he did exist, he would then have been just a false prophet. Most human beings are not against Christ. Most human beings have been deceived about him by misunderstanding and the vain philosophy of men.

[nsr]

Chrlsp, on 15 July 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

They oppose Jesus Christ...to them, if Jesus ever even existed he means nothing...if he did exist, he would then have been just a false prophet.

That doesn't just apply to Jews. If we're talking about the real Jesus and what he really taught and did, it applies to the overwhelming majority of the world's population, be they Jew, "Christian", Muslim, atheist, etc.

Quote

Most human beings are not against Christ. Most human beings have been deceived about him by misunderstanding and the vain philosophy of men.

And also because they would prefer to listen to their own human nature than to what God says. And that applies to Jews as well.

[Chrlsp]

Jesus meaning nothing and being just a false prophet (if he existed at all) does not apply to the majority of the world's population. How can you include "Christian" in that desciption? Jesus does not mean nothing to "Christians". He means everything to "Christians". They do not oppose Christ. They all have the same Bible...but most have been deceived by vain philosophies and traditions of men.

Edited by Chrlsp, 15 July 2011 - 03:58 PM.

[nsr]

Most "Christians" worship a false Jesus who has nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus in the Bible. They will oppose Christ and call him Antichrist when he returns.

The Jews will be converted and saved by Christ when he returns.

[Chrlsp]

One who worships a false Jesus is not one who opposes Jesus. "Christians" do not seek to worship a false Christ...they all refer to the same Scriptures...if they worship a false Christ it is because they have allowed themselves to be deceived into it by the vain philosophies and traditions of men.

On the other hand, most Jews oppose Jesus Christ and do not accept the New Testament Scriptures.

A remnant of the Jews will be saved when Christ returns.

Edited by Chrlsp, 15 July 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Richie]

As far as I know about five billion of the world's population are opposed to Christ (leaving out the billion professed Christians even though I agree with what nsr said) and a very small percentage of those are Jews.

[nsr]

Jews who reject Christ will have the same fate as Gentiles who reject Christ.
Jews who accept Christ will have the same hope as Gentiles who accept Christ.

There is no difference between the two in that respect.