Bible Truth Discussion Forum: Under The Law? - Bible Truth Discussion Forum

Lately I've been talking with a woman who's a Messianic Jew. She's come up with some good arguments that, because I'm Jewish, I'm still responsible to act under the Law that is "holy, just and good" in as much as is possible. I don't mind doing so, if that's what I ought to be doing, but I'm afraid I'm having considerable trouble sorting this out. Can any of you please help me to make sense of this?

Ok, what is the function of the Law? ^_^

Post her arguments here, let's have a look at 'em.

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I guess the verse you're expecting to hear is this one..

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This seems simple enough. The Law brings us to Christ. But then what's confusing is that it's always been faith that justifies. So, is Paul saying as he does elsewhere, that the Law never justified anyone? That makes sense, as it seems that a lot of people thought it did at that time. But the thing is, it never did make people righteous. It's always been faith that did that. So then, although we can't be justified by the Law, and need the Messiah (as the Law should teach us), how does this set us free from being observant to the Law?

In verse 25, once we understand that we are sinners in need of the Messiah and have faith in him, we don't need the Law to teach of that anymore. But then the argument is that if we have been forgiven of that through faith in the Messiah, does that mean we should go and break the Law some more? Paul says somewhere else that you shouldn't do that, and that sin is transgressing the Law.

Sorry if that was convoluted. I'm confused.

I'll post her arguments some time, but I don't have them written down(save for some notes jotted on various pieces of paper scattered about the house) as we've been talking about this over the phone. I'll gather them up and get my act together on that in the next couple of days!

Hatikva, on Apr 30 2003, 04:00 PM, said:

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Yep.

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Oooh, not so confusing when you consider that if anything taught salvation by faith, it was the Law. :whistle:

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Yep.

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Yep.

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It sets us free from being observant to the letter of the Law, and binds us to observance of the spirit - because physical obedience is the letter, and faith is the spirit.

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Yep.

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Ah, but Paul is actually making the point that there is law outside The Law of Moses. Even without the Law of Moses, Divine commandments still exist, and we are bound by them.
There is a difference between 'the Law' and 'law'.

Scripture says that sin is the transgression of law - any law of God, not merely the Law of Moses.

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No probs!

Hi Fort,

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It's often said that the summary of the mitzvot is Hab. 2:4 "the just shall live by faith", but what I don't understand from Gal. 3 is why Paul would say that we had to be brought to Christ in order to be justified by faith. Sorry if that's a bad questions, I'm feeling quite the opposite of this guy right now --->


I'm sorry, I don't understand how you come to this:

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Don't we need both physical obedience and faith?

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1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Have the translators got this wrong?

Hatikva, on Apr 30 2003, 05:12 PM, said:

Ah, that's a good question! Tomorrow maybe we'll go through each of the three quotes of Habbakkuk 2:4 in the New Testament, and hopefully nail it.

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Ah yes, but what I meant was that it sets us free from physical obedience to the Law of Moses, not the law of God.

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Yes. The Greek here translated 'transgression of the law' is simply one word - anomia, which literally means 'lawlessness'. Any breach of Divine law is sin. The Law of Moses is not referred to specifically here.

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Super!

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Seems like the same thing to me How do you figure that this is what the verse is saying?

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Okay. I ought to have looked that up. Toda!

Another question...

Does this verse refer to Torah or not?

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

I've looked up the word for "handwriting" and it seems to mean something like a legal code of debt. I don't understand why this word would be used to speak of Torah.

May I?

i just want to throw these verses in the mixer;

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What do you think of these statements?

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Of course! Thanks for the verses you mentioned. I've been thinking about them. The one from Matt. 5 is commonly quoted by people who believe that we should be following the Law, as all things haven't been fulfilled, and heaven and earth haven't passed.

As for James, I can't see how that shows that the Law isn't still to be kept. Before Messiah, and since, no one could perfectly keep the Law. But why should that stop us from trying?

I'll have to try and take some time out to get around to this tonight. There have been so many other threads!

Hatikva, on Apr 30 2003, 05:49 PM, said:

Because the text does not refer specifically to the Law of Moses.

Hatikva, on Apr 30 2003, 06:27 PM, said:

Yes.

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Try keeping the letter of the Law perfectly, and then come back and tell me if you think it's something which works for your salvation, or which works against you.

Hatikva, on May 2 2003, 11:30 AM, said:

Those people fail to understand:

1) That Christ is not saying heaven and earth will pass away before the Law of Moses is fulfilled. He is saying that it is more likely for heaven and earth to pass away than for the Law to pass away before it is fulfilled. It is a Hebrew idiom which has been badly translated here.

2) That Christ fulfilled the Law in his life and on the cross.

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Because when James refers to 'the Royal Law', he is not referring to the entire Law of Moses. He is referring to one particular part of it (the most important part), which continues to apply after the ritual has passed away.

He also says that if you believe keeping the Law of Moses is necessary, you can't pick and choose which parts of the Law you want to apply, and which parts you don't.
Hence when you write:

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...I ask you if you are prepared to stone anyone. ^_^

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What does this mean?

Sorry to jump in all of the sudden there Fort,

Hell again Haikva, I would just like to ask you something, for which you may want to ask other Jews, and even some members in your family, that's if they will hear and consider you.

Concerning Abraham, What do the Jews honestly think about Abraham's way of life before the eys of the Creator?

Do the Jews stop and consider his example of living by Faith and trust in God, rather than teh works of the leter of the Law?

Remember, Abraham was before Moses, however concerning sacrificial offerings and ordinances, there was at least instruction provided by the angel in how an offering was to be made unto the Lord.

Regards, Matt

Sorry I've been so slow in responding. I've not had the opportunity till now.

Fortigurn, thank you for the explanations. They made good sense. Now off to Habakkuk! He's told to write down the vision he's given because although it won't happen right away, it's sure to. Anyone who places their trust in their own ability is sure to be brought down like the Chaldeans were to be in due time, but the righteous were to live by their faith knowing that there will be judgment on those who weren't among the righteous.


Matthew,

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Sure, they look at the faith of Abraham and consider that that's how he was made righteous. That's how Jews see themselves as being justified today as well. The covenant that God made with him is seen as the same covenant as was made at Sinai, just expanded on later.

Hatikva

I'm new here and if you allow me, I would like to make a comment about following the law.

First, Jesus stated that the law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 5
18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Since the law will outlast the current heaven and earth, it is not yet passed away.

Second, when Jesus said the law would not pass away "till all is fulfilled" He is referring to "the Law" and to "the Prophets"

Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

It is the Law and the Prophets that Christ "did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Further, it is the teaching of the Law and the Prophets that will not pass away until all the Law and the prophets are fulfilled. The law is an abbreviated term for the entire Old Testament, including the Law, the Prophets and the Writings.

According to Jesus, all three sections of the Old Testament must eventually be fulfilled:

Luke 24
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Third, Paul teaches that, during the time of the Body of Christ, the law remains in effect. But the Law is in effect not for believers but for unbelievers.

1 Tim. 1:8But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine

The law only speaks to those under it, the entire unbelieving world.

Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

I forgot, this is an exerpt from The Plot. Ev knows what the Plot is.

Good day Mates.

This post has been edited by theplot22202: 11 June 2003 - 07:57 AM

Hatikva,
Mar shlom Mek again?

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This is where the Atonement comes in.

As when the animal was slain on the block by the priest who was carrying out the duty of killing the animal, and then pouring out the blood into the bowls, then sprinkiling it on the veil, it all had a very specific meaning as to make the Jews stop and thionmk what these specific ordinances meant, which all pointed forward to Christ.

When Christ died on the cross, he put to death and overcame the diabolos, (The devil) which is human sinfully inclined nature.

When all the animals were being slain on the blocks, the attitude of the person making the offering was to be like, "that should be me. That is what I deserve.

Notice how the aniamls had to be without spot or blemish.
Type, Christ was without spot or blemish, because he never sinned. Heb 4:15.

The blood poured out in the bowls. Type, Christ pored out his life in service unto God, as we are also to pour out our lives unto God.

The altar of incense, type, represented prayer being made unto God.

Lesson, our prayers are to be a sweet smelling Saviour unto God in reverence fear, and with thanksgiving.

So when Christ poured out his life unto God, even through death on the Cross, so are we to pour out our lives unto God in service, even when we partake of the emblems, the Bread and wine.( or grape juice in other meetings.)

I'm not sure what things you do Hatikva at your meetings, but that is what the "Law" meant and pointed forward to, for which fort has already elaborated.

At his first appearance, The Lord was ordained by the Father, and had come into the world, as to demonstrate the representative example unto all of those who would belive and follow what God requires from those who wish to be his people.

The second advent is when he will come to judge his people, both Jew and gentile. 2 Cor 5:9-10, Ezekiel 9:1-10, The parable of the slayer.

Yet he will return to establish tyhe Kingdom as told by many faithful of old. Dan 2:44, Ezekiel 40-48, Isa 2:2-5, Micah 4:1-4.

All of these references should be enough to help your interested lady friend, who is also a Jew.

Regards,
Matt

ThePlot22202,

Thanks for your write-up. I wonder if I could ask you to expand on a particular passage you quoted that I don't understand?

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How is it that the law was not made for the righteous person? For someone to be righteous, didn't they have to be obedient to the law, so wasn't it made for them?

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Do I? I think you might need to remind me.

Heck, I don't even know who you are, let alone "The Plot."

Hatikva,

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Under the Old Testament, the law was added because of transgressions. The works of the flesh, (or the traits of human nature) were not being kept in subjection by living in righteousness, or moral uprightness. As Righteousness means to be morally upright.

But by the spirit of the law, the just are to live by faith, as to know and understand the plan and purpose of God by faith in Him, through Christ.

Gal Ch 3;

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Arg, I don't get it still! That doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I've got a case of this...
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Anyways, I thought the law was given to set Israel apart from the other nations. Precisely how was it "added because of transgressions"? It showed people that they couldn't perfectly, thus teaching that the righteous shall be by their faith, but that's a different order than adding it because of transgressions.

Also, some of verses in Galatians 3 are rather cryptic as well. Maybe you could tell me what this is talking about?

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Toda

Shalom!

Hatikva, on Jun 15 2003, 06:31 AM, said:

Oh no, you don't have that blindness. You've accepted Messiah. ^_^

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It was indeed. That was a very important function of the Law. It was intended to show that anyone who wanted to be one of God's people, had to be separate, and had to live in a manner ordained by God.

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These two statements are actually very close - closer than you'd think. Does this translation help?

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What about, "where there is no law, there is no transgression."

So, in understanding this, Law is needed to keep order, as a set of guidelines to live by.

If law and order are removed, then there is absolute chaos.

Why?

Because for us being human beings while possessing human sinfully inclined nature, if there is no law or order then, life is just like the animals, for which we know today.

The striving for power, greed and possession, as to struggle for survival.

In the process, it is all to satisfy the lust of the flesh, as to seek satsifaction in searching for a reason to exist.

That is clearly what life is like in the world for those who choose to be ignorant and rebellious to the teachings and instructions of God's ways.

"All hell would break loose", so to speak, if all law and order was removed, and human nature was just allowed to roam free without the counsels of God.

Could you possibly imagine that?

Now with the laws, rules and regulations that exist in the world, they have been made up by man, as to be seen fit for what is right in his own eyes according to fleshly wisdom and strength.

But with the Letter of the law being placed upon Israel, it was ordained divinely as to teach the Jews to become a people of God, rather than like the rest of the inhabitants around them, as we all should know very well from reading scripture.

The spirit of the law is a challege to those who place confidence in the flesh, as they prefer to seek their own ways of justice and judgement, rather than the learning the wisdom of God.

Man's own fleshly way of judgement, will always result in hypocrisy, corruption and bloodshed, as human sinfully inclined nature, cannot redeem itself from it's own counsel in the flesh.

The letter of the law had many spiritual lessons contained within all pointing forward to Christ, as to make the Jews to stop and consider the reason why, or even ask or enquire what these rituals and ordinances meant, as they were not just simply there for a decorative display, or even as seen as just a words of wind without a meaning or reason.

Types, metaphors, metonomys, parables, symbols, progressions, prophecies were contained therein as to inspire the Jews to look forward to understanding the plan and purpose that he had withthe earth and his people.

Sadly, the Jews had failed to look into the reason why, as the spiritual lessons became void in the minds of the people due to corruption and bending the ordinances thereof, as seek a personal motive or gain out of others.

We too can fail to see the reason and lessons contained within the scriptures if we fail to have a meek humble attitude in learning the principles and lessons contained therein, as we too will suffer the consequences of severity, if we are not living by the the principles contained therein.

Fort, Thanks, that translation is much clearer. I wonder if you could tell me what the following verse (Galatians 3:20) means?