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Salvation Is Without Works- Proofs Universalism To


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#1 Anastasis

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 05:53 PM

Read carefully:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Salvation is a free gift. Faith alone saves. When all the sinners and the devils will be raised from the lake of fire, then their genuine cry for and confession of faith in Jesus will be all required to save them (Phil 2v9-11). "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God". "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt".

Works are all about rewards (1 Cor 3v15, 4v5) but God imputeth righteousness without works. The ultimate salvation from Adamic nature is thus without works, a law of nature (1 Cor 15v22). This is the truth of the Bible. Amen!

Edited by Anastasis, 19 November 2004 - 05:56 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#2 Colter

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:46 PM

Good post,

Humpty Dumpty (the Sanhedrin) fell off the wall and broke into pieces, all the kings horses and all the kings men could not put Humpty back together again. But some Christians are insistent on reconnecting Jesus with "the law" thus having one seamless continuum of theology when in fact the (spiritual) kingdom of heaven is indeed a gift from our father in heaven. It's a gift so great that there is nothing we could ever do to earn it. Praise be to God! :confused:

Edited by Colter, 19 November 2004 - 07:47 PM.

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#3 Flappie

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 10:39 PM

Show me your faith without works and I will show faith by my works. You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear.

But would you like evidence, you empty person, that faith without works is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Edited by Flappie, 19 November 2004 - 10:41 PM.

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#4 Colter

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 12:35 AM

Yes, Flappi I agree that faith without works is dead but the "works" that Jesus taught are the natural desire to serve ones fellows as the result of the "gratitude we experience when we realize this faith gift of salvation. The Pharisees practiced a kind of "self conscious" righteousness, Jesus taught self forgetfulness and genuine service to our fellows. Is there some slavish works we must do in order to coerce our earth parents to love us no, they just do. The same goes for our creator, but he loves us with a divine affection. Jesus was always trying to impress upon his apostles and disciples that they must acquire, by faith, a righteousness which would exceed the righteousness of slavish works which some of the scribes and Pharisees paraded so vaingloriously before the world.

Though Jesus taught that faith, simple childlike belief, is the key to the door of the kingdom, he also taught that, having entered the door, there are the progressive steps of righteousness which every believing child must ascend in order to grow up to the full stature of the robust sons of God.

It is in the consideration of the technique of receiving God's forgiveness that the attainment of the righteousness of the kingdom is revealed. Faith is the price you pay for entrance into the family of God; but forgiveness is the act of God
which accepts your faith as the price of admission. And the reception of the forgiveness of God by a kingdom believer involves a definite and actual experience and consists in the following four steps, the kingdom steps of inner righteousness:

1. God's forgiveness is made actually available and is personally experienced by man just in so far as he forgives his fellows.

2. Man will not truly forgive his fellows unless he loves them as himself.

3. To thus love your neighbor as yourself is the highest ethics.

4. Moral conduct, true righteousness, becomes, then, the natural result of such love.

It therefore is evident that the true and inner religion of the kingdom unfailingly and increasingly tends to manifest itself in practical avenues of social service. Jesus taught a living religion that impelled its believers to engage in the doing of loving service. But Jesus did not put ethics in the place of religion. He taught religion as a cause and ethics as a result.

The righteousness of any act must be measured by the motive; the highest forms of good are therefore unconscious. Jesus was never concerned with morals or ethics as such. He was wholly concerned with that inward and spiritual fellowship with God the Father which so certainly and directly manifests itself as outward and loving service for man. He taught that the religion of the kingdom is a genuine personal experience which no man can contain within himself; that the consciousness of being a member of the family of believers leads inevitably to the practice of the precepts of the family conduct, the service of one's brothers and sisters in the effort to enhance and enlarge the brotherhood.

The religion of the kingdom is personal, individual; the fruits, the results, are familial, social. Jesus never failed to exalt the sacredness of the individual as contrasted with the community. But he also recognized that man develops his character by unselfish service; that he unfolds his moral nature in loving relations with his fellows.

By teaching that the kingdom is within, by exalting the individual, Jesus struck the deathblow of the old society in that he ushered in the new dispensation of true social righteousness. This new order of society the world has little known because it has refused to practice the principles of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. And when this kingdom of spiritual pre-eminence does come upon the earth, it will not be manifested in mere improved social and material conditions, but rather in the glories of those enhanced and enriched spiritual values which are characteristic of the approaching age of improved human relations and advancing spiritual attainments. :confused:
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#5 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:46 AM

This subject is truly one of the most perplexing in the NT: no question about it. Let’s try a bit of common-sense in attempting to reach an answer to the question, What does James mean by ‘faith without works is dead’?

‘Dead’ means:

1 Lifeless: as Christ was raised from the ‘dead’

2 Useless: as ‘repentance from ‘dead’ works (as commanded by the Law of Moses – ‘dead’ because they couldn’t save)

3 Spiritually ‘dead’ as Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

4 In circumcision (i.e. under the Law of Moses): Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

5 Strangest of all in this discussion, ‘dead works’:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

‘Works’ are of two sorts,

1 ‘Good works’ as in Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

2 ‘Evil works’ as in Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We have the Lord himself describing the works which Abraham did, or rather, didn’t do:

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Yet, the very thing which Abraham did, in being willing to kill Isaac, is the one James uses in his illustration. This cannot be co-incidence. So why does he choose this particular thing?

Could he be saying: Abraham believed in the resurrection of the dead. Abraham believed that in Isaac his seed would be called, and that God would raise him from the dead. Abraham had such faith in the resurrection that he did this thing: and you my brethren, are going to have to put your money where your mouth is and do the same ‘works’ and glorify God, meaning that you will have to die for His sake?

The immediate context in James says:

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

If that is a correct understanding, then it fits squarely into the context of ch 1 : ‘Let patience have her perfect work’ where ‘patience’ means dogged perseverance through persecution as was happening to them even then.

Revelation says this, associating dying for the faith and ‘works and labours’:

14.13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When you think about it, none of us, I hope, will ever be called to offer up our beloved son. So what is the point of choosing this event, unless it is as I’ve suggested above?

The same holds for Rahab.

She risked her life for the spies, because if the king of Jericho had caught her lying, then she would speedily have been executed for treason against the king and kingdom of Jericho.

Because of her faith in the God of Israel, she risked her life on the strength of her belief that God would raise her from the dead even if she was slain.

You, my beloved brethren, says James, may be called to take the same risks for you faith. That is what I think he means by faith ‘without works’ is dead.

It is fascinating to watch him refer to the Parable of the Sheep and Goats in this passage:
The goats do not feed or clothe the Lord’s brethren: because they don’t believe that He was their brother, and that he would raise them all from the dead:

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Compare with:

Mt 25: 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Another interesting question occurs to me.

Does NOT committing adultery come under the description 'good works'?

Does NOT stealing come under the description 'good works'?

Just what do you think are 'good works'?

Edited by Asyncritus, 20 November 2004 - 02:48 PM.

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#6 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 02:25 PM

Show me your faith without works and I will show faith by my works. You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear.

But would you like evidence, you empty person, that faith without works is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Well the context of Romans 3-4 shows that James words disagree with his points, provided they speak of the same thing. Romans 4v2 spell this out.

I would much rather reject James than Paul. James would not keep me awake at night, but Paul would :confused:. I think there are three possibilities concerning James.

1. It's not inspired and should be rejected (like Luther was inclined to). Ultimately can we know? No, we can only determine the spirit of it, based on our interpretation and this one do come out as an oddball.

2. It's inspired but disagrees with this evangel to the Jews only leading to an earthly destiny, called the kingdom evangel, disagrees with the Pauline evangel to the gentiles leading to Heaven (the view of Knoch, Geleshoff and some others).

3. James speaks of salvation in another sense than Paul, namely the exclusive salvation of the believer, where special rewards for works are included (1 Cor 3v12-15, 4v15, Romans 4v5). If ones works fail in this one, one will be saved anyway (1 Cor 3v15).

I have gone for 3. for a long time, but I find it increasingly difficult to overlook how strongly Paul and James appears to disagree on this.

Edited by Anastasis, 20 November 2004 - 02:28 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#7 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 02:29 PM

Asyncritus,

Since our worlds are so different, let me just say I appriate you admit the James issue to be perplexing :confused:.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#8 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 02:54 PM

Well the context of Romans 3-4 shows that James words disagree with his points, provided they speak of the same thing. Romans 4v2 spell this out.


I think you have put your finger on the answer there, Anastasis.

The question is: are they speaking of the same thing? If they are, we have a very serious problem. If they are not, then maybe we can move to some understanding which reconciles the two. That's what I'm trying to work towards.
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#9 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 02:59 PM

Well the context of Romans 3-4 shows that James words disagree with his points, provided they speak of the same thing. Romans 4v2 spell this out.


I think you have put your finger on the answer there, Anastasis.

The question is: are they speaking of the same thing? If they are, we have a very serious problem. If they are not, then maybe we can move to some understanding which reconciles the two. That's what I'm trying to work towards.


Woo! :king: Amen!! Great thinking.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#10 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:07 PM

There is an additional point which bears on this question.

Rev 20. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If you read that passage carefully, you soon see that there are 2 sets of books here.

"And the books were opened" is one set of books.

"And another book was opened, which is the book of life" is the other set of one.

The "dead" were judged out of the things written in the books (plural), according to their works. These seem to me to be the people who think their works will save them. They won't.

The Lamb's book of life is also opened, and if you are in there, you live. By faith, it looks like.
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#11 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:21 PM

Asyncritus,

I will not interfere more in this discussion except if someone comments on what I said. I think it's so great you recognize that the CD community truly needs to address the "Paul - James" issue. You truly need that.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#12 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:23 PM

Faith alone saves.

The Bible contradicts this flatly. The Bible says that faith alone does not save.

When all the sinners and the devils will be raised from the lake of fire...


The Bible says absolutely zero about anyone being raised from the lake of fire. What enters that lake is destroyed.

Works are all about rewards (1 Cor 3v15, 4v5) but God imputeth righteousness without works.


God imputes righteousness without works of the Law.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:24 PM

Asyncritus,

I will not interfere more in this discussion except if someone comments on what I said. I think it's so great you recognize that the CD community truly needs to address the "Paul - James" issue. You truly need that.

There is no 'Paul - James' issue. Paul denies that salvation is through the works of the Law. James does not contradict this.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#14 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:26 PM

The "dead" were judged out of the things written in the books (plural), according to their works. These seem to me to be the people who think their works will save them. They won't.

This is a forced reading of the text. Everyone is judged according to their works, both good and evil:

Matthew 16:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall give to every man according to his works.

Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Corinthians 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own due according to his own labour.

2 Corinthians 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Timothy 4:
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord give to him according to his works:

1 Peter 1:
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revelation 2:
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 18:
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my due is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


None of these passages say anything about people who 'think their works will save them'.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#15 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:32 PM

Wow now Fortigurn is going to get us heretics Asyncritus! :confused:
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#16 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:37 PM

Asyncritus,

I will not interfere more in this discussion except if someone comments on what I said. I think it's so great you recognize that the CD community truly needs to address the "Paul - James" issue. You truly need that.

There is no 'Paul - James' issue. Paul denies that salvation is through the works of the Law. James does not contradict this.


WRONG!! I have heard this desperate attempt so often, but it's wrong.

So Paul is speaking of Mosaic law works only, ehh? Let's look;

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the
glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through
faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for
the remission of sins that are past, through the
forbearance of God;

The gift is free!


Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our
father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For
if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the
scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted
unto him for righteousness. 4 5 But to him that
worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Now
to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of
grace, but of debt.


ALL works, including those of Abraham. In short works means works!


Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth
the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth
righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are
they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are
covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will
not impute sin.

The conclusion! Lucky is that man who no longer will be judged by the impossible standards of pleasing God through actions.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#17 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:40 PM

Faith alone saves.

The Bible contradicts this flatly. The Bible says that faith alone does not save.

When all the sinners and the devils will be raised from the lake of fire...


The Bible says absolutely zero about anyone being raised from the lake of fire. What enters that lake is destroyed.

Works are all about rewards (1 Cor 3v15, 4v5) but God imputeth righteousness without works.


God imputes righteousness without works of the Law.


Paul says not "God imputes righteousness without works of the Law". No Paul says; "God imputeth righteousness without works".

At the end of the ages, that time where Jesus will no longer reign (after the time of Rev 21-22), where universal healing starts (Rev 22v2), God will be all in al and through abolishing death all will be alive (1 Cor 15v22-28). This may take 2.000 years before it's fullfilled, but it will happen alright. If Paul is right and I think he is :confused:. If the angels were right when they said the birth of Jesus would be to the joy of all the people (all jews included caiphas and judas). I think they were. If John were right when he says the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. I think he was.

Let it be remembered that the people in the lake of fire will never be able to accomplish what Fortigurn would expect of them. They never knew Christ and they needed the lake of fire to cleanse them. See Zepheniah chapter 3. When Christ enables them to do it, they will cry for him and he will heal them from Adamic nature.

Edited by Anastasis, 20 November 2004 - 03:44 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#18 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:46 PM

I agree with Fortigurn that all are judged by their works. I just dont believe their sorry efforts will save them :confused:.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#19 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 04:19 PM

Paul says not "God imputes righteousness without works of the Law".

Galatians 2:
16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.


Back to you:

No Paul says; "God imputeth righteousness without works".


Righteous ness is not imputed on the basis of works alone - our works do not earn righteousness. But there is no righteousness without a living faith, and there is no living faith without works.

At the end of the ages, that time where Jesus will no longer reign (after the time of Rev 21-22), where universal healing starts (Rev 22v2), God will be all in al and through abolishing death all will be alive (1 Cor 15v22-28).


That is not what the passages you quote say.

Let it be remembered that the people in the lake of fire will never be able to accomplish what Fortigurn would expect of them. They never knew Christ and they needed the lake of fire to cleanse them. See Zepheniah chapter 3. When Christ enables them to do it, they will cry for him and he will heal them from Adamic nature.


Where does the Bible say this?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#20 Fortigurn

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 04:20 PM

I agree with Fortigurn that all are judged by their works. I just dont believe their sorry efforts will save them :confused:.

I don't believe that anyone's sorry works will save them. But it is clear that their salvation or destruction is dependent on their works.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#21 Colter

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:40 PM

When we receive the gift of salvation, when we surrender to the will of God it is no longer necessary to think in terms of "what must I do to win the favor of God. He is our Father we are his children and he naturally loves us.

Mercy is simply justice tempered by that wisdom which grows out of perfection of knowledge and the full recognition of the natural weaknesses and environmental handicaps of finite creatures. "Our God is full of compassion, gracious, long-suffering, and plenteous in mercy." Therefore "whosoever calls upon the Lord shall be saved," "for he will abundantly pardon." "The mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting"; yes, "his mercy endures forever." "I am the Lord who executes loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth, for in these things I delight." "I do not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men," for I am "the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort."

God is inherently kind, naturally compassionate, and everlastingly merciful. And never is it necessary that any influence be brought to bear upon the Father to call forth his loving-kindness. The creature's need is wholly sufficient to insure the full flow of the Father's tender mercies and his saving grace. Since God knows all about his children, it is easy for him to forgive. The better man understands his neighbor, the easier it will be to forgive him, even to love him.
We must give up all hope for a better past.

#22 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 06:10 PM

deleted because of duplication

Edited by Asyncritus, 20 November 2004 - 06:31 PM.

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#23 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 06:26 PM

I agree with Fortigurn that all are judged by their works. I just dont believe their sorry efforts will save them :confused:.

I don't believe that anyone's sorry works will save them. But it is clear that their salvation or destruction is dependent on their works.


There is a marked distinction between 'reward' and 'salvation. You are referring to 'reward' in everything you have said so far, Fortigurn. Those passages you have quoted are all the cart, which you are firmly setting before the horse.

I would like to hear your detailed and careful exposition of the 'books' in Rev 21 which I quoted, with particular attention as to why the distinction is so carefully made between 'the books' and 'another book' which latter is the Lamb's book of life.

I can't escape or elude the force of :

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

20.31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Believeth

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Faith

Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.


Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Te prize passage in this regard is, of course, Ephesians 2:

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Care to comment on some of these? Especially the last.

Edited by Asyncritus, 20 November 2004 - 06:32 PM.

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#24 Flappie

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:03 PM

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Care to comment on some of these? Especially the last.

We can't earn salvation, we won't deserve it, noone here has claimed that. Even if we tried, our works would simply not be enough anyway. Does that mean we just have to believe and can sit on our backsides while doing that? Ofcourse not.

Obviously we have to try, we have to run that race, we have to do good works to the best of our abilities, and if we do that, and we believe that God will save us through His grace, then He shall.

Otherwise we will come before him, and we will say "Lord, we believed!" but he will say "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."
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#25 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:42 PM

I agree with Fortigurn that all are judged by their works. I just dont believe their sorry efforts will save them :confused:.

Maybe a slight twiddle of your phrase will help. Maybe every man will not be judged by his works, but every man's work will be judged. It is an interesting and possibly noteworthy point that every time someone is described as being 'judged', it is to condemnation.

All of our works will be judged. But Paul says:

11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I think this is the key passage to reconciling the two understandings.

Yes, we have to do the works that accompany salvation: for we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. That's the cart.

For by grace have ye been saved: that's the horse.

You do good works because you have been saved. You do not do good works so that you might be saved. The good works are the consequence of salvation. Salvation is the GIFT of God, as someone has just pointed out. If you pay for a gift, it is no longer a gift.

Edited by Asyncritus, 20 November 2004 - 07:47 PM.

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#26 Asyncritus

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:45 PM

I fully agree with you Flappie! Wow! What a relief to be able to say that for once!!

That, however, is not what Fort has said so far. At least, my general impression is that he has denied this, and has gone down the Works Road.
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#27 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:04 PM

Fortigurn,

You quote;

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.


Cant you see what this verse says? We are justified by Christ's work. Period. So says Rom 4v5 and 1 Tim 2v5-6 etc too. And as demonstrated previously, to Paul any work is just as much work as the works of the law.


Now you say the verses mentioned in this does not support what I said they say;

"At the end of the ages, that time where Jesus will no longer reign (after the time of Rev 21-22), where universal healing starts (Rev 22v2), God will be all in al and through abolishing death all will be alive (1 Cor 15v22-28)."

In Rev 22v2, the nations receive healing. The nations are obviously not the servants serving God in Rev 21 and nations in Scripture is simply unbelieving gentiles. This unjustified pack now begins to be healed.

As for 1 Cor 15v22-28, its message is entirely rejected by anyone but universalists. I am used to this strange thing now. You can not believe in or understand the pasage if you believe in eternity and denies universalism. It does say that the Son of God will cease reigning and at the same time all will be saved. Neither things are completed in Rev 21-22, thus they do not see that far into future. The lake of fire will serve its purpose. You think it destroys people in a bad way just as you would find the happenings of Zeph 3 strange. Here people are destroyed, the earth destroyed etc, so that the very same people and earth can become holy. Freaky cure you might say, but it works :swoon: :confused:

Edited by Anastasis, 20 November 2004 - 09:05 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#28 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:08 PM

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Care to comment on some of these? Especially the last.

We can't earn salvation, we won't deserve it, noone here has claimed that. Even if we tried, our works would simply not be enough anyway. Does that mean we just have to believe and can sit on our backsides while doing that? Ofcourse not.

Obviously we have to try, we have to run that race, we have to do good works to the best of our abilities, and if we do that, and we believe that God will save us through His grace, then He shall.

Otherwise we will come before him, and we will say "Lord, we believed!" but he will say "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."


Paul is actually "sitting on his backside" with the rest of creation here;

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Remember evangel means "good news". Judgment is not good news, it's old conditions of Adamic nature. So we are not to mix the two things, but keep them seperate. Grace!

Edited by Anastasis, 20 November 2004 - 09:10 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#29 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:14 PM

Asyncritus,

you say to Fortigurn;

There is a marked distinction between 'reward' and 'salvation. You are referring to 'reward' in everything you have said so far, Fortigurn. Those passages you have quoted are all the cart, which you are firmly setting before the horse.


Isn't the problem that to a non-universalist, no proper distinction between reward and salvation can be spotted? To him/you the reward will be salvation and salvation will be the reward. I fully agree with you that there is a clear distinction between them in Scripture and I am sure you know why I believe there's a clear distinction :confused:.
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#30 Anastasis

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:19 PM

I agree with Fortigurn that all are judged by their works. I just dont believe their sorry efforts will save them :confused:.

Maybe a slight twiddle of your phrase will help. Maybe every man will not be judged by his works, but every man's work will be judged. It is an interesting and possibly noteworthy point that every time someone is described as being 'judged', it is to condemnation.

All of our works will be judged. But Paul says:

11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I think this is the key passage to reconciling the two understandings.

Yes, we have to do the works that accompany salvation: for we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. That's the cart.

For by grace have ye been saved: that's the horse.

You do good works because you have been saved. You do not do good works so that you might be saved. The good works are the consequence of salvation. Salvation is the GIFT of God, as someone has just pointed out. If you pay for a gift, it is no longer a gift.


I love 1 Cor 13v11-15 and apply it to the fact that the believer who acted as an evil servant will not loose his salvation (an impossibility to me due to the ransom) but might undergo harsh punishment. Do you believe then that a believer can loose reward but not salvation? This is a more advanced evangelical view. So it must mean you believe in "eternal security"?

Edited by Anastasis, 20 November 2004 - 09:20 PM.

The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)




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